{"@context":"http://iiif.io/api/presentation/3/context.json","id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/iiif/251fj29s47/manifest","type":"Manifest","label":{"en":["Avery, Lawrence "]},"logo":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/organizations/logo_images/000/000/115/original/Boxed_Milken_Center_logo.png?1628711583","metadata":[],"provider":[{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/aboutus","type":"Agent","label":{"en":["Lowell Milken Center for Music of American Jewish Experience"]},"homepage":[{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/","type":"Text","label":{"en":["Lowell Milken Center for Music of American Jewish Experience"]},"format":"text/html"}],"logo":[{"id":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/organizations/logo_images/000/000/115/original/Boxed_Milken_Center_logo.png?1628711583","type":"Image"}]}],"thumbnail":[{"id":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/collection_resource_files/thumbnails/000/112/014/small/Avery.jpg?1621430441","type":"Image","format":"image/jpeg"}],"items":[{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014","type":"Canvas","label":{"en":["Media File 1 of 1 - L1897_MA_Oral_History_Avery_2017_Logo.mp4"]},"duration":4706.112,"width":640,"height":360,"thumbnail":[{"id":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/collection_resource_files/thumbnails/000/112/014/small/Avery.jpg?1621430441","type":"Image","format":"image/jpeg"}],"items":[{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014/content/1","type":"AnnotationPage","items":[{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014/content/1/annotation/1","type":"Annotation","motivation":"painting","body":{"id":"https://aviary-p-milken.s3.wasabisys.com/collection_resource_files/resource_files/000/112/014/original/L1897_MA_Oral_History_Avery_2017_Logo.mp4?1619864660","type":"Video","format":"video/mp4","duration":4706.112,"width":640,"height":360},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014","metadata":[]}]}],"annotations":[{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014/transcript/37004","type":"AnnotationPage","label":{"en":["Interview with Lawrence Avery [Transcript]"]},"items":[{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014/transcript/37004/annotation/1","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"LEVIN:  Cantor Avery, Cantor Avery, can we talk about your name?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  Sure.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Okay.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014#t=16.0,22.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014/transcript/37004/annotation/2","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"AVERY:  That’s always a good beginning.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Okay.  Why don’t we start out with that?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  Okay.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  About how it got to be Lawrence Avery.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014#t=22.0,27.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014/transcript/37004/annotation/3","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eAVERY:\u003c/strong\u003e Well, I was born Avery Jacob Cohen.  And the Cohen yiches were very, very important in my life.  And I stayed Avery Cohen through high school. But when I got to The Juilliard and I began to move, I began to do some competitions.  I was in — and, and I won a couple of competitions.  And there were, there were some questions about management and so forth.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014#t=27.0,56.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014/transcript/37004/annotation/4","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eLEVIN:\u003c/strong\u003e Or Koenig.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014#t=56.0,82.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014/transcript/37004/annotation/5","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"AVERY:  Or something like that.  \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN: Yeah. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY: So I made up the name.  I used Avery as a last name, and Lawrence was from no place.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  D.H. Lawrence.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014#t=82.0,90.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014/transcript/37004/annotation/6","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"AVERY:  So I became Lawrence Avery.  And that had a nice sound to it.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  From Lawrence Tibbett.  That what’s you tried to…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  very, very goyishe.  Very goyishe.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Well, not really.  Well…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  Well…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Not really.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014#t=90.0,101.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014/transcript/37004/annotation/7","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"AVERY:  But and then, there was never any question, I didn’t have any problems.  And that’s how the name…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Uh-huh.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  …evolved.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014#t=101.0,109.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014/transcript/37004/annotation/8","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"LEVIN:  Well, it’s different.  Today it’s a whole different thing.  I wondered, you know, like, could a pianist in the popular world — Michael Feinstein…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  Yes, I know.  But there’s still no…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  …that couldn’t have happened 50 years ago.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  …singers.  There were very, very — well there were very few Jewish singers around, anyhow.  But the singers today are, are not named Greenberg or, or…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  No.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  …or Kaplan or, or Cohen or anything like that.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  No.  No.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  See.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014#t=109.0,129.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014/transcript/37004/annotation/9","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"LEVIN:  Yeah.  All right.  Now, that means that you…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  Okay.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  …so you went to The Juilliard, which I caught, because that officially, that’s what it was called.  I think they’ve stopped that.  But until very recently, the official name is The Juilliard.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014#t=129.0,140.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014/transcript/37004/annotation/10","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"AVERY:  The Juilliard.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  And when I went, it was still…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Which is what you said.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  …I, I, I started, I think it was, in those days, it was called The Institute of Musical Art.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  It was?  Well, that was…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  Yeah, well…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  …before Juilliard.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  Yeah.  That was…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  It goes back that far?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  Yeah, well.  There was The Juilliard School.  There was The Juilliard Graduate School.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  And there was The Institute.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Yeah.  The Institute was…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  The Institute was like…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  …it was the Damrosch school…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  Yes.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  …before that. But that means you went to study, not to be a hazzan?  It was…","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014#t=140.0,166.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014/transcript/37004/annotation/11","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"AVERY:  No, no, no, no.  No. The, the origins of, the origins of Jewish music in my life all started when I was a very, very little child.  My father was a hazzan by avocation.  My mother’s father was a grocery store man who davened.  Everybody in both families were singers.  Everybody sang.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  You grew up…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  So I sang.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014#t=166.0,188.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014/transcript/37004/annotation/12","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"LEVIN:  This was in New York?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  This was in Brooklyn.  This was in New — yeah.  Brooklyn, I…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  In Brooklyn.  Not New York, Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  I was — Williamsburg was, was, was home for us.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Before the Hasidim hit.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  Before the Hasidim hit.  And…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Did you know that there was a, the Bedford Avenue Synagogue there?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014#t=188.0,202.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014/transcript/37004/annotation/13","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"AVERY:  Well, there were, there was the…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  The one where…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  There was the huge place on Hughes.  Hughes Street and Bedford.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Bedford and Hughes.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  Bedford and, Bedford and Hughes.  Right.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  That’s right.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  Right.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  And that was where Joshua Lind was hazzan.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  I’m sure, I’m sure.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  That’s before your time.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014#t=202.0,213.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014/transcript/37004/annotation/14","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eAVERY:\u003c/strong\u003e I remember that shul.  I remember that shul. Because we left Williamsburg when I was about five.  My sister was born and we moved, we moved toward Crown Heights.  Because Crown Heights was where my father wanted me to go to yeshiva.  And though I started in public school for about a year or so, I was being groomed for entrance into the Crown Heights Yeshiva.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014#t=213.0,234.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014/transcript/37004/annotation/15","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Once I got into the Crown Heights Yeshiva, I had the conventional yeshiva education for about seven or maybe — yeah, seven years.  Graduated from the yeshiva, and all during that time was singing.  I was like the, the, the prodigy of the, of the yeshiva. I sang with my father, because my father had a, a, always had a job singing in, in various shuls for the Yamim Nora’im.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014#t=234.0,262.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014/transcript/37004/annotation/16","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"LEVIN:  But as a, as a…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  This was his, he was in the, in the, in the business world.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Like, was he a member of the Farband?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  No.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  No, because you didn’t have, you could be in the business world…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  No.  No, no, no, no.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  …and still be in the Hazzanim Farband.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014#t=262.0,273.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014/transcript/37004/annotation/17","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"AVERY:  Nothing like that.  Nothing like that. My mother was a fabulous musician.  My father was not a musician.  Everything my father did or learned he got from recordings.  He could sing you any, any Rosenblatt record by heart.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  And your mother sang?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  My mother sang and had a…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  They both were born in Europe?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  …beautiful…. Nope.  My parents were American-born.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Really?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014#t=273.0,291.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014/transcript/37004/annotation/18","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eAVERY:\u003c/strong\u003e Yep.  My mother had this incredible experience as a young person.  She learned solfège in, in high school.  And she would walk around the house singing (sings to the tune of Way Down Upon the Swanee River) Mi re do mi re do do la do sol mi do re. And I’d say, “Ma, what is that?” She’d say, “Some day, you’ll learn it.”  Or, “Some day I’ll teach it to you.” She’d go (Sings) Do la do la ti sol la ti sol la mi la mi sol. I’d say, “What is it, mom?” She could do that in any, with any good tune.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014#t=291.0,324.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014/transcript/37004/annotation/19","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Eventually, when I got finished with the Yeshiva, I said, “Okay, high school?” My father says, “You’ll go to, you know, you’ll go to T.A.”  Yeshiva University High School. My mother said, “Let him go to Music and Art.”\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Well, okay.  But up until that time…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  So Music and Art was the…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  …no, but to go to Music and Art — you had no instrument yet?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  Well I, I had, I started the piano when I was about…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  But just nothing…","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014#t=324.0,349.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014/transcript/37004/annotation/20","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"AVERY:  …about eight.  I could, I could, by the time I was 13, I could play a Bach two-part invention.  So I tried out for High School of Music and Art, and of course, I, I got in. My voice had begun to change at my bar mitzvah.  I had davened Musaf.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Were you in choirs when your voice was…?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  Okay.  My father did not allow me to go into a choir.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Why?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014#t=349.0,372.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014/transcript/37004/annotation/21","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eAVERY:\u003c/strong\u003e My father was quite convinced that any kid who sang in a choir would lose his voice.  That these demon choir leaders would ruin the kids, and only a very few really survived.  The ones with the real heavy chest alto voices, who became good tenors, like Peerce and Tucker, you see.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014#t=372.0,392.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014/transcript/37004/annotation/22","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eLEVIN:\u003c/strong\u003e At High School of Music and Art?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014#t=392.0,418.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014/transcript/37004/annotation/23","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eAVERY:\u003c/strong\u003e At Music and Art.  I learned the solfège that, I learned to do the solfège that my mother was doing.  Sof, sof, I, I became a wonderful musician.  I began, I learned how to sight-sing. By the time I was graduating from Music and Art, I was soloist with the, with, with a, with the Goldman Band in, in, in, in Central Park.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014#t=418.0,444.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014/transcript/37004/annotation/24","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Because we did a, we did a choral program, and I was the soloist. By the time I finished with high school, I said I’d like to go to a real conservatory.  “You don’t want to go to college?”  No.  I wanted to go to The Juilliard.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014#t=444.0,460.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014/transcript/37004/annotation/25","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"LEVIN:  And you knew it was voice?  I mean, in other words, you wanted to…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  It was voice.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  And you were hooked on opera yet, or…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  I became an opera fan when I was about ten.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  How did that happen?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  My father allowed us to keep the, the radio on over Shabbos.  And it was fixed to WJEZ, or whatever the, the station was.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  The Met broadcasts?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014#t=460.0,479.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014/transcript/37004/annotation/26","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eAVERY:\u003c/strong\u003e And — the Met broadcasts.  And I used to listen to that.  I used to sit all Saturday afternoon and eat.  I would eat and listen.  And there developed a, a, a great affinity and passion for, for real music.  So that real music, real singing, great composers played a, an important part in my life.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014#t=479.0,504.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014/transcript/37004/annotation/27","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"By the time I got to, got into The Juilliard, which was probably ’44 — yeah.  Because I graduated from high school in ’44.  ’44?  ’40?  Yeah.  ’44.  I spent a year at The Juilliard and then I was whisked away into the Navy.  I was in the Navy for about a year and a half.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014#t=504.0,527.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014/transcript/37004/annotation/28","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"LEVIN:  How did you manage a year and a half?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  The war was over.  ’45, in ’45, I think, ’45 was the, was VE-Day, and ’46 was VJ-Day.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  And, and by the time…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  No.  ’45 was, I think it was both.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  Yeah.  They, well…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Spring was the year…","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014#t=527.0,546.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014/transcript/37004/annotation/29","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eAVERY:\u003c/strong\u003e But I got out of the Navy in ’46.  I was one of the first people…. But during that time while I was in the Navy, I worked for chaplains.  And I said, “I can do anything you want.  I can play Catholic services, I can play, I can sing at anything you want.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014#t=546.0,562.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014/transcript/37004/annotation/30","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"And if there are some Jews around, we’ll, we’ll….” When I got home, back to The Juilliard, my father said, “Now, you will begin to study hazzanas.” I said, “I don’t want to be a hazzan.  I don’t want to be a cantor.”\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  You hadn’t finished at Juilliard yet?  You were going to…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  No.  I was in my second year at The Juilliard.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Who did you study voice with?  Do you remember?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014#t=562.0,585.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014/transcript/37004/annotation/31","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eAVERY:\u003c/strong\u003e The first year, I studied with a guy named George Britten, who was a musical comedy kind of person.  When I came back to The Juilliard, after the Navy, they let me study with a guy named René Maison. René Maison was, had been a, a primo tenore at the Met, who sang mostly Wagner and the heavy Verdi things.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014#t=585.0,607.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014/transcript/37004/annotation/32","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Carmen was the — in fact, there exists a recording of Maison with Rosa Ponselle when she sang Carmen. At any rate, and he was a wonderful man.  He didn’t drive me, he didn’t push me.  And then he said to me, “And if you sing that way and if you sing lightly and beautifully and if you develop that” — he called it a voix mixte — he said, “you’ll sing till you’re an old man.”","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014#t=607.0,637.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014/transcript/37004/annotation/33","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"And then I began to sing a certain repertoire.  And I found that I was pretty good.  I was pretty good at doing it. Maison left The Juilliard, finally.  And… or, I didn’t continue to study, but I worked, then worked with a guy named Sergius Kagen.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014#t=637.0,656.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014/transcript/37004/annotation/34","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"And Kagen was an unbelievable musician.  Mainly a coach and an accompanist.  He knew that I was doing the cantorial bit, because my father — yeah, my father was always fixing me up with some kind of little shtellah here or shtellah there — and finally he set me up in a small Orthodox synagogue out in the Rockaways.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014#t=656.0,677.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014/transcript/37004/annotation/35","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"LEVIN:  But you knew what to do by that time?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  Once I got out of the Navy and my father said to me, “You will study,” we found a teacher.  So I went to study with Shimon Razen.  And that was again…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  How did you find Razen?  Razen was very well-known then, at that time?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  He was well-known.  Like Sheckoff studied with Razen.  Charlie Bloch studied with Razen.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014#t=677.0,699.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014/transcript/37004/annotation/36","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"LEVIN:  So he had a — by that time — he had a…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  So he had a following.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  …he had a following.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  He was ancient.  He was an old, old man and everything he wrote — you know, this is all handwritten stuff.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Do you think he has any direct descendants?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014#t=699.0,710.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014/transcript/37004/annotation/37","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"AVERY:  No.  I don’t think so.  Because when I would go visit him — which was always on a Sunday morning — and spend the hour with him, it was already, I think, the second or third wife.  So one has no way… — somebody else asked me that same question, recently.  No.  I doubt it very much. He lived on Bergen Street in Brooklyn.  It was — today, you wouldn’t want to, you wouldn’t want to…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  …walk on Bergen Street.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014#t=710.0,735.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014/transcript/37004/annotation/38","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"LEVIN:  But he was one of the ones who advertised, didn’t he, in the Farband…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  I don’t know that he, I don’t know how my father….  My father took me to him.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  And he found him by reputation, no?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  By reputation.  I mean…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Because he’s one of the best — look — the best-known ones…","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014#t=735.0,750.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014/transcript/37004/annotation/39","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"AVERY:  Yes.  Were Katchko and Razen…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Razen and Lipitz.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  And Lipitz, with whom Ben Belfer studied.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  And there was another couple that were…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  And there were some choir leaders.  There were some choir leaders.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  … well-known. You could see the adverts in the…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  Right. Right.  I don’t know that Shimon Razen advertised.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014#t=750.0,763.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014/transcript/37004/annotation/40","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"LEVIN: With Razen, you studied how often?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  I would see Razen once a week.  The promise was that in two years, I could have the entire repertoire written out for me.  I paid him five bucks a week.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Now, did he teach you — well, first of all…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  He didn’t coach me.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  So what did he do for you?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  He didn’t… He just wrote the stuff.  He knew that I was a good musician.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  So what — he could have sold it…","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014#t=763.0,785.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014/transcript/37004/annotation/41","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"AVERY:  In fact, he did…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  He could have sold — in other words, he just wrote it.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  He wrote it out.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Supposedly tailored for your particular voice?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  Tailored for my particular voice.  He knew that I was not a great minagen at the time.  He knew that a lot of the melodies that I wanted to sing were melodies that my father knew.  So he would say to me, “How does your father sing the second Ya’aleh?”  And he would write it…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Okay, but those are melodies for which there is no fixed….  But how did he…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  Right.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014#t=785.0,811.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014/transcript/37004/annotation/42","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"LEVIN:  Did he teach you, for example, how to open a Machzor and talk like (INAUDIBLE)?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  I didn’t know that.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  How to open the…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  I didn’t have…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  …ich bin hayn tachticht tin pachticht tayn pachticht kor bekayn kuch?  And, and what to do in the nussakh?  How it should be, without any composition?  Then he didn’t teach you that?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014#t=811.0,825.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014/transcript/37004/annotation/43","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"AVERY:  No way.  No, he didn’t teach me that at all.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  So where did you learn that?  Just…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  From the music.  And from the — you see, I’m a great believer that you’ve got to start out with a repertoire.  You’ve got to start out with a, a beautifully wrought…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  No, I understand.  But what…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  …correct repertoire.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  …what if you’re in someone’s home…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  And somebody and some…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  …and at a minyan…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  Yeah?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  And somebody says, “Listen.  I need you to daven Minkhah.”  You have to open up, you’ve got to know what the nussakh is for Minkhah, as opposed to Shakharit.  He didn’t teach you that?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014#t=825.0,854.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014/transcript/37004/annotation/44","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"AVERY:  No, he didn’t.  No.  He only taught me the music that was suitable for the role of a hazzan.  He didn’t teach me any weekday nussakh.  The weekday nussakh…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  I mean, I just picked that as an example.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  Yeah, yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  But I could also say, what if you walked into a shul in Keokuk, Iowa as a guest…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  Yes.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  …and somebody says, “Listen.  You’re a guest here.”\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  You could daven…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  “Why don’t you daven Ma’ariv?”\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  …daven for…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  You can’t say, “Well, I don’t have my compositions with me.”  So…","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014#t=854.0,874.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014/transcript/37004/annotation/45","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"AVERY:  Well, by the time, you see, he was writing for me, I had already gotten the job at in the Rockaways.  And I was using all the material. After a while, though I would often bring the notebook with me onto the amud, I didn’t need it.  And the great plus was that knowing what I knew musically, I was able to weave in, weave out…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Now what did he write differently for you than he wrote for someone else?  Charlie Bloch or anyone else?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014#t=874.0,904.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014/transcript/37004/annotation/46","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eAVERY:\u003c/strong\u003e Good question.  He probably wrote… They were much, they were much older than I was.  They were much more mature than I was.  They were much more advanced vocally than I was, at that point. I was a 19-year-old, you see.  So it was not very elaborate, though there were high notes.  And there were, there were florid moves.  It was not elaborate hazzanas, hazzanas in the, and certainly not in the style of Moshe Oysher or David Koussevitsky or, or Moshe Koussevitsky.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014#t=904.0,940.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014/transcript/37004/annotation/47","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"LEVIN:  So what would happen?  You would come to a lesson, he would give you the…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  You’d come to the lesson.  He would sit, he would write.  He’d say, “What are we up to?” “We’re up to Kol Adonoi Yekholel Ayalos.” And he would write.  He would write.  In fact, I was very useful, because he didn’t have to write the words in for me.  I would always write in the words myself.  If I was not able to write in the words, or if I didn’t come, and he gave me a — or my father picked up the music — he would write in the words in Hebrew, you know.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014#t=940.0,971.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014/transcript/37004/annotation/48","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"LEVIN:  But he…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  About…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  …he didn’t do — otherwise, he didn’t do a syllabic placement.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  He did…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  He didn’t do a syllabic text underlay.  You had to decide what syllables went under what…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  Oh, well, no. Well he would sing it to me.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Yeah?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  He would sing it to me.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Or where you repeated the words.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014#t=971.0,982.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014/transcript/37004/annotation/49","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"AVERY:  Yeah.  Where the words, yes.  And I would always be able to write in the words.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  All right.  So and then did he coach you on how to sing it?  The style?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  No, he didn’t.  He didn’t coach me.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  So…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  He didn’t — well I, I knew what….  I had been davenning in shul all my life.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  So basically, you were coming to him for to, to…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  I was coming to him to get a correct…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  To get a written-out…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  …a correct, written-out version.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014#t=982.0,1005.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014/transcript/37004/annotation/50","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"LEVIN:  You see, some of them were in between.  Now Lind, you paid him — you didn’t pay him a flat fee.  You paid him per session?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  We figured out that it probably would have, the whole thing cost about 700 bucks.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  But it was per session?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  I paid him, I paid him five bucks a week.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Whereas, Lind, well, Lind…","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014#t=1005.0,1020.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014/transcript/37004/annotation/51","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"AVERY:  I paid him five bucks a week.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Lind had a different system in Chicago.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  And I paid him cash.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  He was famous for it. …Well, naturally…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Lind had a different system.  Lind — and at first, it offended a lot of people, until one got to know him.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  He took the, all, the whole, the total…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  A flat thing.  A thousand dollars.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  Oh…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Wait a minute. In advance.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  Oh, gee.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014#t=1020.0,1037.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014/transcript/37004/annotation/52","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"LEVIN:  And what did you get for a thousand dollars?  He’ll make you a hazzan.  It could be two years, five years, three years…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  Oh, I see.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  And a lot of people were turned off.  He used to say, “A thousand dollars, on the table.  Put it down, now, on the table, a thousand dollars — I make you a hazzan.”\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  But for those who did it, they found that he became their — you see, it sounds obnoxious.  But for those who did it, he became, and there was, it basically was for life.  Actually, you were…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  Yes, yes.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014#t=1037.0,1064.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014/transcript/37004/annotation/53","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"LEVIN:  It was a very good investment.  But the thing is that he did partially what you’re talking about.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  Yeah.  But he coached…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  But he also…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  …and he, and he nurtured.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  “Now sing it.”\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  “Now I’ve written it out for you.  Now come back next week and sing it.”\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  Yeah, I didn’t have that with, with Razen.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Did you do that with anyone else?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014#t=1064.0,1077.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014/transcript/37004/annotation/54","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eAVERY:\u003c/strong\u003e No.  I did it myself.  You see.  I didn’t even do it with my father.  Because my father knew that I was a musician. My father was not a musician.  My mother wasn’t going to help me.  She didn’t have to help me.  I could sit at the piano. I could play it.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014#t=1077.0,1094.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014/transcript/37004/annotation/55","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"And that’s when I also learned how to chord things, you see.  I knew how to find or play the right chord.  I didn’t know anything about the mode that, we were, that….  I only learned modes when I got, years later, when I got to HUC.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Right.  Now that…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  All right.  So, so there I was…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  You actually went to HUC as a student?  I didn’t know that.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014#t=1094.0,1116.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014/transcript/37004/annotation/56","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eAVERY:\u003c/strong\u003e I continued with my job in the Rockaways for about three years.  As I approached the end — and this is all while I was at The Juilliard.  So that I would finish on Friday, race out to, to Rockaway, sleep over at the Washington Hotel, you see, and daven at the little Orthodox shul, which was across the street from Dr. Gordis’.  From — I think it was called Beth El or something.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014#t=1116.0,1147.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014/transcript/37004/annotation/57","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"LEVIN:  Where?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  In, in Rockaway.  Rockaway Park.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  I don’t know it.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  All right.  Toward the end of the three years, in the Opera Theater at The Juilliard — I had made it into the Opera Theater — I met my wife-to-be.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  She was a singer, too?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014#t=1147.0,1161.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014/transcript/37004/annotation/58","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eAVERY:\u003c/strong\u003e She was a singer.  She had come up from Curtis, and she was singing at the, and we were in the Opera Theater together. And she said, “I’d love to hear you daven.”  So she came and she spent a weekend in Rockaway with me at the hotel.  And she said, “You’ve got to get out of this place.”  She says, “You’re too good for this.”","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014#t=1161.0,1180.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014/transcript/37004/annotation/59","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"The same time, at that same year, I met a fellow named Manfred Hecht.  I don’t know if you know that name.  Manfred Hecht was a bass-baritone at the City Opera.  And he said to me, “You know,” he says, “you know that they’re giving a fabulous education at this place called the Hebrew Union College.” I didn’t even know what the Hebrew Union College was.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014#t=1180.0,1202.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014/transcript/37004/annotation/60","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eLEVIN:\u003c/strong\u003e This was right when they were beginning?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014#t=1202.0,1223.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014/transcript/37004/annotation/61","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"AVERY:  This was…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  What year was it?  ’49?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  This was about — no.  This was about ’50.  1950.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  So they had, they were just starting.  Their first year was ’49, wasn’t it?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  It was….  Yeah.  So this was maybe the second year. I go to the Hebrew Union College and I realized that there’s Ganchoff, and there’s Shapiro, and Efros, and Helfmann.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Alter.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014#t=1223.0,1248.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014/transcript/37004/annotation/62","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"AVERY:  No.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Not yet.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  Alter didn’t come till years later.  Helfmann, Isadore Freed — all the, the, the gedulai hador were…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  And Helfmann was there?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  Helfmann was there.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  That was before he went to California?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  This is before he went to California.  Helfmann was the choir leader for Abraham Shapiro in Newark.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Oh, that’s right.  That’s right.  Yeah, yeah.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014#t=1248.0,1268.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014/transcript/37004/annotation/63","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eAVERY:\u003c/strong\u003e So, so I said to, I said to Sarah, I said, “You know, maybe I ought to, maybe I ought to go there and get another degree.” Because I had gotten my master’s at The Juilliard already.  And I had got, of course, I had a bachelor’s.  And I was finished.  She was at The Juilliard in the Opera Theater.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014#t=1268.0,1287.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014/transcript/37004/annotation/64","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eLEVIN:\u003c/strong\u003e Well, no.  Not, Hebrew Union College wasn’t.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014#t=1287.0,1317.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014/transcript/37004/annotation/65","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"AVERY:  I mean the school.  Excuse me.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  The School of Music…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  The School of Sacred Music.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  I almost said “Scared” Music.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  At the School of Sacred Music…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  The School of S\u0026M, we called it.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  Yes.  The School of Sacred Music — I never heard that.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  You never heard that?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  No.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  (INAUDIBLE).","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014#t=1317.0,1329.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014/transcript/37004/annotation/66","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"AVERY:  The School of Sacred Music was for k’lal Yisroel.  Eric Werner…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Yeah, I know.  That was a big…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  Right.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  That’s a…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  That was the plan.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Because at that point…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  Wolf Hecker…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  I know.  I know.  The whole point was missed, later on.  Like that was supposed to be.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  Yes.  With all, it all changed.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  It all, yeah.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014#t=1329.0,1345.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014/transcript/37004/annotation/67","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eAVERY:\u003c/strong\u003e So I said, if I can study with these people and pay almost nothing — I mean the, the tuition was a, was a joke — why not? I was in that place for a couple of months and the woman who was the registrar says, she says, “Hey, have you got a job?” So I said, “Well, I’d like to….”\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eShe said, “There’s a job open in New Rochelle.”  And she says, “If you’d like to audition,” she says, “I am very close to the people who are concerned with that.” So I auditioned for the job in New Rochelle, and I got the job and I never left, you see.  I continued with HUC.  I stayed at the…","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014#t=1345.0,1385.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014/transcript/37004/annotation/68","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"LEVIN:  Now, how long a program was it, in those days?  Four years?  Three years?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  It was three years.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Three years.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  Because of what I knew, they said to me, “Well, you can, you can go for two years.  You can make it all in two years.”  I was, I did the two-year thing.  And I was about ready to graduate, but I had copped out on one course.  I didn’t take Modal Harmony, with Isadore Freed.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Freed.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014#t=1385.0,1408.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014/transcript/37004/annotation/69","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eAVERY:\u003c/strong\u003e And Isadore Freed said to Dr. Franzblau, “This man will not graduate.  He didn’t take my course.” By that time, I was already in with Ganchoff.  I used to sit, I used to… Ganchoff’s workshop, I used accompany, you see.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014#t=1408.0,1424.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014/transcript/37004/annotation/70","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"LEVIN:  Barisch wasn’t there yet, was he?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  Barisch was there, of course.  Morris was there.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  He was, he was?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  Yeah, Morris was…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  From the beginning.  He had the…","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014#t=1424.0,1431.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014/transcript/37004/annotation/71","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eAVERY:\u003c/strong\u003e Yes.  From the beginning.  From the beginning.  So I made a deal, or we made a deal.  I stayed for a third year, see.  Continued. And Efros became ill.  And they said, “Do you think you could maybe take over…” I think Efros either went on a leave or something or couldn’t continue.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014#t=1431.0,1453.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014/transcript/37004/annotation/72","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eLEVIN:\u003c/strong\u003e Right.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014#t=1453.0,1467.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014/transcript/37004/annotation/73","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"AVERY:  You know?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Which I actually still think is good.  But…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  You bet it’s good.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  It explains it beautifully.  It’s, it’s, it’s from the… Also, there was Binder, and I had been working with Binder, and I learned all my cantillation from Binder.  I mean, I knew how to…","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014#t=1467.0,1483.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014/transcript/37004/annotation/74","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"LEVIN:  What did Hecker do there at that time?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  Hecker was like the — an, an administrator.  That’s all he did.  Hecker was, was the, the guy to whom you, you went for placement.  Hecker was the guy, if you needed an elaborate recitative, he could get it for you.  Hecker could advise you.  He was a, was a great manipulator and a great, a great hustler.  And a very shrewd man.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014#t=1483.0,1508.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014/transcript/37004/annotation/75","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"LEVIN:  Yeah, he became a very wealthy man with the silver business.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  With the silver business.  Sure.  In Portugal.  \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN: Was it in Portugal?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY: No, it was all Portugal.  It was all made in Portugal. At any rate, I stayed on at the school.  I got another degree there.  A degree in…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Sacred Music.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014#t=1508.0,1523.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014/transcript/37004/annotation/76","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"AVERY:  …Sacred Music.  When Binder died, I took over Binder’s course, courses, and I taught cantillation then.  I began…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Well, that was already — Binder died, what?  ’60?  No.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  Well, I was, could be.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  But I don’t know.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014#t=1523.0,1536.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014/transcript/37004/annotation/77","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eAVERY:\u003c/strong\u003e Could be about that time.  But having — Ganchoff sort of pulled out.  Efros sort of pulled out.  And I was given the courses to teach.  So I taught a workshop in Shabbat.  I taught a workshop in High Holy Days.  I taught a workshop, I taught nussakh ha-tefillah.  I taught, and eventually, I taught cantillation.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014#t=1536.0,1563.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014/transcript/37004/annotation/78","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"I was like, I was teaching more than a full-time person, for very bad money.  And stayed there for 36 years.  I was on the faculty.  I was chairman of the faculty, for a while.  I was, I did all kinds of things.  I did interviews.  Some recruitment and so forth.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014#t=1563.0,1587.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014/transcript/37004/annotation/79","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eLEVIN:\u003c/strong\u003e With… the other way around. Yeah, yeah.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014#t=1587.0,1620.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014/transcript/37004/annotation/80","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eAVERY:\u003c/strong\u003e Yeah.  Yeah.  During that time — or early, early on — I realized that my real métier was hazzanas.  That this was the thing that I was, this was the thing that I told my father I will never do.  And I wound up doing.  This was the thing that I said if I do it, I want, I hope that I’ll be able to continue to do other things. And I did do other things.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014#t=1620.0,1645.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014/transcript/37004/annotation/81","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"I was able to sing whatever concerts were available.  Never, never had a problem with Shabbos.  Because whenever I sang, there were people who were wonderful. I, the, the first major professional work that I did in the concert world was with Thomas Sherman.  And Tommy Sherman said, “You can’t sing on Friday night?  Okay.  That’s, that concert we’ll do on Sunday.”","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014#t=1645.0,1675.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014/transcript/37004/annotation/82","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"And I did at least, I would say, a half a dozen major appearances with Sherman.  I toured with Sherman.  I toured Detroit, Washington, Princeton, Town Hall in New York.  I did all kinds of things. But I was able to always juggle around, and then I never was, I never had to…","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014#t=1675.0,1699.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014/transcript/37004/annotation/83","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"LEVIN:  And you were at one place for…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  40…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  …for all these years?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  46 or 47 years.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  That’s very unusual.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  Very unusual.  You may wonder why. Part of it is because you, you might say, well, I was chicken.  I didn’t want to leave.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  No.  In New Rochelle…","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014#t=1699.0,1715.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014/transcript/37004/annotation/84","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"AVERY:  I loved my job.  And the people there liked me.  My children went to beautiful schools there.  My kids went to day school and wound up going to wonderful colleges. And after a while, my wife got a job at the Hebrew Union College. You see, because she was driving… she was carpooling my daughter to Ramaz.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN: Mm-hm","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014#t=1715.0,1740.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014/transcript/37004/annotation/85","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"AVERY:  So things worked out well for us in New Rochelle.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Now you, in addition to — okay, hazzanas — are you — I could be wrong, but I think of you also as having been involved with Yiddish art-song and so forth…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  Okay.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  …in a more than just the average, the…","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014#t=1740.0,1762.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014/transcript/37004/annotation/86","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eAVERY:\u003c/strong\u003e I sang Yiddish songs from the time I was a kid.  I didn’t speak Yiddish.  And my Yiddish was not very good.  But, but WEVD was a part of our, our life. My wife was the Yiddishist.  My wife was the one who spoke Yiddish.  That was her first language. When we got together, when we were married, we began to concertize.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014#t=1762.0,1782.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014/transcript/37004/annotation/87","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"We did many gigs together.  And developed and built a beautiful repertoire of Yiddish songs, ranging from show tunes to the just sleazy pop Yiddish songs, to the art music. The art music, the person who had a great influence on me was, was Lazar Weiner.  And he was another one who was there at HUC.  He played any number of recitals that I did.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014#t=1782.0,1814.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014/transcript/37004/annotation/88","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"LEVIN:  Did you do the — well, with Sarah Lee, did you do a lot of performing together?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  Yes.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Public?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  Public and…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  What about radio?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  We did radio.  We worked with Sholem Rubinstein.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Oh, you did?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  Oh…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Well, you know that I brought, did I tell you that I brought Sholem Rubinstein from Atlanta in October?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  Yes, yes, yes.  \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN: I told you that?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY: You told me.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  And we went to Ellis Island, and we…","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014#t=1814.0,1834.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014/transcript/37004/annotation/89","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eAVERY:\u003c/strong\u003e My, the, I, I think I told you, the, the hilarious story about — my father didn’t believe that I was a hazzan until I sang on WEVD.  If you could sing on WEVD in New York, then you had arrived. And it had to be the two, the one called “Songs of the Synagogue” on Sunday afternoon.  Or maybe it was late Sunday morning.  Something like that.  And of course, the accompanist was Abe.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014#t=1834.0,1860.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014/transcript/37004/annotation/90","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"LEVIN:  Ellstein?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  Ellstein played.  There was a quartet.  There was a professional quartet. And so the assignment was one major piece, one piece with choir, and perhaps a Yiddish song or perhaps some song, you see.  So it was a bit….  And it was a half an hour show and….","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014#t=1860.0,1880.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014/transcript/37004/annotation/91","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"And I arrived once with, with the Omer Rabbi Elazer of, of Roitman.  And Sholem Rubinstein looks at the piece he said, “It’s too long.” I said, “Yeah, but that’s my piece.” He said, “But it’s too long.  It won’t fit.”  He says, “Go out into the hall and cut it.” So I walked out into the hall and lopped out chunks of the piece.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014#t=1880.0,1909.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014/transcript/37004/annotation/92","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"I brought it back to Abe, who was playing the thing at sight, no accompaniment.  You know, I mean nothing — no, no arrangement.  And we did the piece. And Sholem Rubinstein, at another time, my wife and I were doing another program.  I think it may not have been EVD.  But there was another program, at another…","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014#t=1909.0,1929.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014/transcript/37004/annotation/93","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"LEVIN:  Another station?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  Another station.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Well, there were a lot of stations.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  But there was another station that did a Sunday program.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  There were a lot.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  There were a couple of big ones.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  You know, and then there were all the small ones from New Jersey…","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014#t=1929.0,1939.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014/transcript/37004/annotation/94","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eAVERY:\u003c/strong\u003e And my wife and I were doing a program.  We did a, we had an arrangement of something.  A Yiddish arrangement, maybe. And Sholem heard us rehearse.  And he said, “I don’t like that.”  He says, “You don’t sound like The Barry Sisters.”","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014#t=1939.0,1952.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014/transcript/37004/annotation/95","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"I said, “We’re not the Barry Sisters.” He says, “You know that you got a little, work a little harder on the blend of the voices.” I mean, he was a very sensitive musician, he was very sensitive to, to good sound, you see.  And, and I was always thankful that he was so demanding.  And, and, and…","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014#t=1952.0,1972.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014/transcript/37004/annotation/96","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"LEVIN:  But?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  But…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  It was a pain.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  But it was diff…, but it was a, it was a, a great, it was a difficult kind of an assignment.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Yeah.  Yeah.  So did you — and now, that’s hazzanas you sang on the radio?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014#t=1972.0,1984.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014/transcript/37004/annotation/97","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"AVERY:  Sang on the radio.  I told you the, the Roitman thing, yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  The Roitman.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  Hazzanas, a choir piece which was also maybe a (INAUDIBLE), and a song.  Where the other, other, other singing that I did might have been show tunes.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  In English?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014#t=1984.0,1998.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014/transcript/37004/annotation/98","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"AVERY:  No.  Yiddish.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Translated?  Or, you mean from Yiddish shows?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  Yes.  From Yiddish shows.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Oh, you did that stuff?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  Sure, we did.  A Ve Gezint, and we did Mazel, and we did…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Did you say “A Ve Gezint” or “A Ve Gezunt” in those days?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014#t=1998.0,2011.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014/transcript/37004/annotation/99","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"AVERY:  A Ve Gezint.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Yeah, because that’s the way the theater people spoke.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  Yeah, yeah, yeah.  But we always…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  You know, to this day, Rechtzeit, for example, no, right now…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  He’d say one thing…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  You can hear it right now.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  He’d talk about “Perim” coming up. “Shevius.”\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  Yeah, yeah, yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  I mean, it’s totally…","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014#t=2011.0,2028.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014/transcript/37004/annotation/100","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"AVERY:  So there was Eastern — it depended which community it came from.  And there was the theater.  There was theater Yiddish.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Yeah.  Well, the theater Yiddish is largely Galician.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  Well, the…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  I mean, I…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  Yes.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  I didn’t know what to do.  Benzion Miller…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  …recorded a piece with us in London…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  Yes.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  …in November.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  Yeah.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014#t=2028.0,2046.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014/transcript/37004/annotation/101","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"LEVIN:  In, you know, the famous Ha-Mavdil.  Rumshinsky’s Ha-Mavdil.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  So, yes.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  (Sings it)  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  So should I say, when it comes to the refrain…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  Gitvoch.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Should I say gitvoch or gutvoch?  I said…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  (Sings) Gitvoch.  I learned it as a child as gitvoch.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Yeah, but it really is a gutvoch.  So I said, you know, he, so there’s one take of him “git.”\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  Really?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  And then he went back to doing “gut.”  So we could just pick a — decide later.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014#t=2046.0,2069.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014/transcript/37004/annotation/102","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"AVERY:  I sang, as a child, my father taught me that song.  I sang the Yiddishe leid.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  The Secunda?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  (Sings) Yeah, the Secunda piece, yeah.  \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN: The Secunda, yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY: I knew all those pieces as a kid.  And then they, they were laid to rest.  All during my musical maturity.  Until I found my way in, into, into the Jewish world again.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Yeah.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014#t=2069.0,2096.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014/transcript/37004/annotation/103","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eAVERY:\u003c/strong\u003e And, and was, was singing those pieces.  But they were…. The art music, the art music, of course, the interest in that also stems from all the interest that I had in, in art-songs to begin with at The Juilliard, you see.  And then, when I discovered Milner and when I saw what, what some of these things where and when I realized how…","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014#t=2096.0,2118.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014/transcript/37004/annotation/104","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"LEVIN:  Now, how did you do that?  Who taught, who opened that door for you?  Milner and Achron and Krein and Yignes and all that.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  Weiner.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Really?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  Probably Weiner.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Because later, Weiner basically would only teach his own songs.  With an occasional exception.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  Oh, yeah.  But, but Weiner, we took a course with him.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  But the course was in his own songs, wasn’t it?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  No, it wasn’t.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  No, it…","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014#t=2118.0,2138.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014/transcript/37004/annotation/105","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eAVERY:\u003c/strong\u003e The course was — and Binder also had a great influence, too.  Binder was a great collector, and Binder liked working with me. And I did, I did two T.V. shows with Binder and, and, and he, he did arrangements of things.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014#t=2138.0,2154.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014/transcript/37004/annotation/106","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eLEVIN:\u003c/strong\u003e Who, of course, at that time was exotic.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014#t=2154.0,2175.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014/transcript/37004/annotation/107","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"AVERY:  Yeah, you see.  So, and I realized that these are… Somebody else introduced me to Hempse.  I’m trying to think who it was.  Oh, well.  That was — the Hempse things, the Hempse things I learned from, believe it or not, from Henry Rosenblatt. Henry.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Did you ever study with him?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014#t=2175.0,2192.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014/transcript/37004/annotation/108","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"AVERY:  No.  No.  Well, we were good friends.  Because Henry was also at HUC.  Henry went to school at HUC.  Check the records.  Henry graduated from HUC.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  He never said anything about that.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  No.  It didn’t, he never took…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  I talked to Henry Rosenblatt.  In fact, it was just last year.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  Henry Rosenblatt, Paul Dennis — that was his stage name.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Yeah, right, right, right.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014#t=2192.0,2215.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014/transcript/37004/annotation/109","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eAVERY:\u003c/strong\u003e Yes.  Yes, he went to HUC.  But we remained friends for a long time.  And he would, he would, every now and then, he would call me and say, “I found a Hempse piece that would be just right for you.  You can come over and get it.  I’ll, I’ll Xerox it for you.” Of course, the price I had to pay for it was to sit with Henry for two and a half hours and, and once again listen to his arrangements and rearrangements of his father’s pieces.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014#t=2215.0,2242.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014/transcript/37004/annotation/110","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"And, and his, he was always touting his, his voice studio as well. I never studied voice with him.  I never studied voice with many people.  I mean, there are people who — I think, if you asked X, Y or Z, how many voice teachers you’ve been with, I think they may, they may…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Well…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  …not be able to count.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Well, yeah.  But we were talking about that the other day.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  I had very good, I had very good fortune.  To…","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014#t=2242.0,2268.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014/transcript/37004/annotation/111","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"LEVIN:  We were just talking the other day that some of the best singers, frequently it happens that they either had no voice teacher or one.  Rather than…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  Basically…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  I mean, look.  I mean, take Peerce.  Now, you were very close to…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  Yes, okay.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  …Jan Peerce, right?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014#t=2268.0,2280.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014/transcript/37004/annotation/112","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"AVERY:  There were at least half, half a dozen good teachers in his life.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Were there?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  Yes.  Yeah.  But, but the man who rescued him at the end was William Herman, and after William Herman…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  That’s right.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  …it was, it was, it was Alex Lorber.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Lorber, yeah.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014#t=2280.0,2292.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014/transcript/37004/annotation/113","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"AVERY:  You see.  Lorber became a kind of a, an amanuensis to him and to the whole household.  Herman helped him when he was in bad shape, toward the end of the career at the Met.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  Remember, he is the one who brought Roberta to Herman, you see.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014#t=2292.0,2310.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014/transcript/37004/annotation/114","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"LEVIN:  Well, then everybody went to Lorber.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  But then, everybody went to Herman for a while.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  My wife studied with Herman.  I studied with Herman.  I took three lessons with him.  And then fled.  Because, because at the time — this is a good story. At the time I, I was, I was engaged to sing the Berlioz Requiem tenor solo.  I don’t know if you know that.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014#t=2310.0,2334.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014/transcript/37004/annotation/115","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"LEVIN:  Of course. How can I not know it?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  It’s an incredible, beautiful…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  But I can’t sing it.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  It’s an incredibly beautiful solo.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  And for…","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014#t=2334.0,2340.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014/transcript/37004/annotation/116","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eAVERY:\u003c/strong\u003e And I, and I, and I took it to Herman.  I took it to Herman and he said, “You can’t sing it that way.  You have to belt that out.  You have to sing those high B-flats like….” I said, “But I got the job because I sing it like a, like an alto.”  I said — this is, this is before counter-tenors were in. And, and I got a beautiful review for it.  But I never went back to Herman.  He was just not my style. My wife worked with him for a short time.  And then we went to Lorber and then, you worked with Lorber.  After three lessons, you had the whole, the whole Torah. But Peerce adored Lorber and Lorber adored Peerce.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014#t=2340.0,2376.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014/transcript/37004/annotation/117","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"LEVIN:  So for him, it worked.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  It worked. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  For you, it didn’t.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  Yeah.  Yeah.  It was a, it was a collection of routine exercises.  David Lefkowitz worked with him.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Well, that’s…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  Malavani worked with him.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  They all went to Lorber.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  They all went to Lorber.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  But I think they went because Peerce went.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014#t=2376.0,2390.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014/transcript/37004/annotation/118","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"AVERY:  Exactly.  Exactly.  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  And…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  In some cases…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  He had a good ear.  He had a good ear.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  You know, he could, he could, he could tell you when you were not, when it was not exactly…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Yeah, yeah, yeah.  So actually, so I mean, back to the Yiddish art.  You…","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014#t=2390.0,2410.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014/transcript/37004/annotation/119","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"AVERY:  Why Yiddish art?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Weiner…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  Weiner was a…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Weiner did…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  Weiner, my wife said, “These are, these are spectacular pieces.”  I mean, they, that, that cycle of songs by Milner, you know.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Yeah, the Schiffer, the…","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014#t=2410.0,2425.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014/transcript/37004/annotation/120","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"AVERY:  Yes.  I mean, the Schiffer was given to me by Weiner.  I said, what, I said, “What is this from?” He said, “For you,” he says, “it’s a little too low for you.  I’ll give to you in a high key.” And he gave me a transposition of it.  And I sang that song, I sang that song all the time. He’s the one who introduced me to, to, to the (Sings).  You know the, the…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Yeah, sure.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014#t=2425.0,2453.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014/transcript/37004/annotation/121","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"AVERY:  Ibid De Hoifen.  Ibid De Hoifen.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Ibid De Hoifen.  \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  Yeah.  And, and, and I sang that.  God, I sang it.  Bob and I used to sing that.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  That’s right.  It was a duet.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  Yes.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  I sang it with — I also sang it with, with, with Paul Kwartin.  Paul Kwartin was a…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN: I remember Paul Kwartin, yeah.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014#t=2453.0,2468.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014/transcript/37004/annotation/122","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"AVERY: Paul Kwartin was also at HUC.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Yeah.  That I knew.  I knew.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  Yeah.  Yeah.  And then Paul created Cantica Hebraica, which was a…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Right.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  …a great and a wonderful adventure.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  And then, what happened to it?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014#t=2468.0,2481.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014/transcript/37004/annotation/123","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"AVERY:  He, Paul died and, and, and Ray left, or Ray, Ray fell out of grace, so to speak.  And I mean, Paul had that wonderful program on QXR.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  On Wings of Song.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  On Wings of Song.  That’s something you ought to do.  You know that?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Yeah, I could use some more things to do with my life.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014#t=2481.0,2501.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014/transcript/37004/annotation/124","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"AVERY:  You could, you could, you could do a show like that.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  I have nothing else to do.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  But he produced. We did so many wonderful concerts.  So many.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  He had money from, for that show from…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  He had money from Phillip Morris.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  From Phillip Morris, from Anheuser-Busch.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  He had money from, well, from… \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Anheuser-Busch.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  He had a big concert there.  He had…","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014#t=2501.0,2518.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014/transcript/37004/annotation/125","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"AVERY:  Wait, he had money from one of the airlines.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  From one of the airlines.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  Airlines.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Eastern Airlines.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  Eastern Airlines.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  That was because they were competing for the Florida roots with Delta…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  Incredible.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  …with National Airlines.  With National.  Remember National Airlines?  It doesn’t exist anymore.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  Paul Kwartin was one of the shrewdest…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  …manipulative guys in…","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014#t=2518.0,2535.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014/transcript/37004/annotation/126","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"LEVIN:  Well, I mean, you know.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  And if you ever wanted good seats at the Met, just call up Paul.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Oh, yes.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  He could get you anything you want.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  He could get anything.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  Did you know that he was a cousin of Evelyn Lear?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Evelyn Lear, sure.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  Right.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014#t=2535.0,2546.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014/transcript/37004/annotation/127","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"LEVIN:  And of course, a nephew of the…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  Of the great Zavel.  Of Uncle Zavel.  Uncle Zavel.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  But yeah, he always used to say, “my Uncle Zavel.”\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN: You remember the concert they had — Cantica Hebraica at Alice Tully Hall?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014#t=2546.0,2560.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014/transcript/37004/annotation/128","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"AVERY:  Yeah.  I was in that concert.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  And was that about, it was somewhere in the early ‘70s.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  I was in that, I was in that concert.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  If I were to tell who I went to that concert with, you won’t, I mean…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  Don’t tell me.  But I sang, I sang in, in Tully Hall, I sang Ha-Shir Shel Haleviim.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  No, but that concert was the last, wasn’t it?  It never happened again, did it?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  We did, I did Tully Hall three times, I think.  Or maybe twice.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014#t=2560.0,2585.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014/transcript/37004/annotation/129","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"LEVIN:  Was that the last or the…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  I don’t remember which is which.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  I remember it was a Sunday afternoon.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  Was Harold Orbach on the concert?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Definitely.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  Okay.  That might have been the, the last one.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Harold Orbach was the featured soloist there.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  Okay.  All right.  And he sang Chajes.  He sang a piece…","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014#t=2585.0,2600.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014/transcript/37004/annotation/130","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"LEVIN:  I don’t remember what he sang.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  Sang the famous piece by Julius Chajes.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  (INAUDIBLE) at Tully Hall.  There was a reception, I can’t remember where.  I went to someone’s home.  This was just after you, maybe it was the first year or so of admitting women to be cantors.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  Could be.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Because you had the first — what was her name?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  Barbara?  Barbara Ostfeld or…","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014#t=2600.0,2624.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014/transcript/37004/annotation/131","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"LEVIN:  Yeah.  And then there was a…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  There was a marvelous black soprano who sang with us, too.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  No, no, no.  This was in the — you mean Dale…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  Her name was Jones.  Betty Jones.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  No, there was…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  There was Clem Adeo (?), but that’s…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  No, no.  No Clem Adeo.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  She was, she was…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  No.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  What ever happened to her, by the way?  Do you have any idea?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014#t=2624.0,2640.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014/transcript/37004/annotation/132","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"AVERY:  Who?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Clem Adeo?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  I don’t know.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  She had the…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  She didn’t sing with us.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  She auditioned for me once.  And…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  For what role?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  To sing in a choir for the High Holy Days, believe it or not.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  Good singer.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Oh, she was marvelous.  She was marvelous.  And also beautiful.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014#t=2640.0,2657.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014/transcript/37004/annotation/133","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"AVERY:  Funny story about Binder.  Do you want to hear a funny story about…. Sandra Warfield — do you know who, do you remember, do you remember that name?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Yeah, sure.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  Sandra Warfield was Binder’s contralto.  And I had sung with Sandra because we were in the same management.  I sang, I sang a Verdi Requiem with her once down in the South. She, she was his, she, she comes to Binder in the middle of the summer, and she said, “Dr. Binder, I can’t do the High Holy Days with you this year.”","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014#t=2657.0,2681.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014/transcript/37004/annotation/134","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"He said, “Sandra, why?” She says, “I just signed a contract with the Met.” So he said, “Sandra, you think that over.”  He says, “You think that over.  That’s a, that’s a very dangerous move.”  Can you imagine?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Yeah, I can, actually.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  That was Binder.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  No, I’m not surprised at all.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  That was Binder.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014#t=2681.0,2699.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014/transcript/37004/annotation/135","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"LEVIN:  Because the first, but the first, in those — no, there, the first rabbi was Sally Priesand.  But there were two, the first two cantorial women students were Sheila May Klein.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  Sheila Klein.  But she…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Sheila May.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  She, but she didn’t sing in Tully Hall with us.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  No, no, no.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014#t=2699.0,2717.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014/transcript/37004/annotation/136","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"AVERY:  No.  I know Sheila.  I just saw her recently.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  She still exists?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  She still exists.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Because she sort of dropped out of sight.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  She doesn’t have a job.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  No, but this was not a voice of a…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  The day that they gave, you know, they did an honors (INAUDIBLE), a doctorate thing down at HUC.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  When?  How long ago?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014#t=2717.0,2732.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014/transcript/37004/annotation/137","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"AVERY:  November 15th.  I got…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  So it was this year?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  Yeah.  I got, yeah, I got, I’m a doctor, now.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Okay.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  So there.  But she was at that thing.  I don’t, what she, why she was there.  But she, she showed.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Anyway, Cantica Hebraica.  Was there, wasn’t there a — I’m trying to think.  Not that long ago, somebody said they were going to revive it.  They were going to get…","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014#t=2732.0,2756.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014/transcript/37004/annotation/138","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"AVERY:  Yes.  I was hoping to revive it.  But it, but…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  No, but there was a, who was behind it?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  Gurney?  Do you think Gurney wanted to revive it?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Well, he would want, but he’s not a, he doesn’t have the access…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  You have to be an entrepreneur, you have be… \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN: An entrepreneur\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY: …an entrepreneur.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  No.  I’ll tell you who it was.  Don Roberts.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014#t=2756.0,2773.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014/transcript/37004/annotation/139","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"AVERY:  Oh, please.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  He — yeah, I know.  He was — no, it doesn’t matter.  He was going.  No, but they were serious.  Remember when they formed that…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  Yes.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  It’s coming back now…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  It was Don and, and Jackie and…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  They were going to get funds…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  And Mizrahi and…","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014#t=2773.0,2786.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014/transcript/37004/annotation/140","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"LEVIN:  They were going to get grants.  Well, Mizrahi is not going to do anything except sing with it.  I’m talking about from the business end of it, to get grants, money.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  Right.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  To revive it as a…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  Well…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  It didn’t, it died, I think.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  It was, it’s worth the whole concept.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Now, what was it?  Describe what it was, kind of.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014#t=2786.0,2799.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014/transcript/37004/annotation/141","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"AVERY:  It was just a beautiful group.  It was, the conductor was a fellow named Dennis Michnow.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Right.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  Who was not Jewish.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Right.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  He was the music director of All Saint’s Episcopal Church down in, down in, in, in…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  It’s downtown somewhere.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  Downtown.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Chelsea.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  Right, right.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Somewhere.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014#t=2799.0,2816.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014/transcript/37004/annotation/142","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eAVERY:\u003c/strong\u003e Paul, I and Ray Gilbert were the soloists.  Then we would always have guests.  And there was a, a singing ensemble that he was always able to contract.  That singing ensemble could be four, six, eight, ten or 12 or 16 people, you see.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014#t=2816.0,2838.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014/transcript/37004/annotation/143","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"LEVIN:  At its largest, would you say it was 16?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  At its largest, it may have been 12 or 16.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  So was it was à la…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  And Dennis, and Dennis could — yes, à la…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  …à la Western Winds or a la Greg Smith…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  Yes, yes, yes.  Plus instrumentalists.  And we did everything, from the Adler things, from, to…","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014#t=2838.0,2856.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014/transcript/37004/annotation/144","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"LEVIN:  When did it start?  About?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  I don’t, I can’t, the — probably in the, I, I got a, I know.  What’s — about 20, I would say about 26 years ago.  What, what year would that be?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Well, I don’t know.  What’s 26 from 99?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  What’s 26 from 99?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  I don’t understand these things. ‘73.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  All right.  All right.  It’s in the early summer.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  More than that.  No, because the concert I heard…","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014#t=2856.0,2880.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014/transcript/37004/annotation/145","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"AVERY:  ’70.  1970, I would say.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  At the latest.  It might have even started in ’69.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  I doubt it.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Because the concert I heard was ’71, maybe ’72.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  So it was early, late ‘60s, early ‘70s.  And, and we had…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  It was ’71.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014#t=2880.0,2900.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014/transcript/37004/annotation/146","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"AVERY:  And we had an absolutely wonderful time.  We, we traveled…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  And where did the funding from that came from?  Kwartin got the funding?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  Kwartin got all the funding.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  And it was, but it wasn’t a set group that met weekly, you know.  It was a concert…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  No, no, no.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  When you needed a concert, you…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  That’s right.  He was…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  So it wasn’t same singers all the time?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  We were the, we were the soloists.  That was wonderful.  Occasionally, there was a woman.  Wyner, Yehudi Wyner’s wife…","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014#t=2900.0,2924.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014/transcript/37004/annotation/147","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"LEVIN:  Oh, that, yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  She sang until she…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Before the accident.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  …before the accident.  We sang with her.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  She did that marvelous Psalm 150 that…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Yeah, Susan DeVenni.  And actually…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  Susan DeVenni…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  …I even remember that she was there.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  Yes.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  She wasn’t on the program.  She might have.  Could she have been on the program?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  She was not on the program, no.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  No, but she was…","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014#t=2924.0,2940.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014/transcript/37004/annotation/148","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"AVERY:  No, but she was, she sang with us.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  Evelyn Lear sang with us.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Yeah?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  Evelyn sang.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  You got her to do that?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  Evelyn sang Milhaud with us.  I used to sing one of the Milhaud pieces, also.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  But there’s a recording, there’s a recording of something out from one of those concerts.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014#t=2940.0,2955.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014/transcript/37004/annotation/149","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"AVERY:  There were about, yes, yes, yes.  Robert Bloch sang with us.  But David Lefkowitz did, did one concert.  We traveled all over…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Bloch, yeah.  Bloch was a student then?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  Bloch was still a student then.  Yeah.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014#t=2955.0,2971.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014/transcript/37004/annotation/150","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"LEVIN:  I want to tell you something.  You cannot match — I mean, the reasons we know this, and it’s too bad, because…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  You cannot match…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  …the glory of that voice among…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  He was — I, I coached him.  He was one of my students.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  I can’t think of a cantor…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  He was one of my students.  And I begged him.  I said, “Robert, study.” He said, “I’m going to sing opera.”\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Well, he’s…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  I said, “Robert…”","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014#t=2971.0,2993.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014/transcript/37004/annotation/151","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"LEVIN:  …he’s gone back and forth.  But I’ve got to tell you.  He sang a recording, he sang with us last spring.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  Yeah.  It’s a beautiful voice.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  I listened to him.  It was more, I mean, there’s nothing quite like it.  I mean, it’s not for Kwartin hazzanas, no.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  No.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  But if you want something…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  No.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  But to do Helfmann, to do, he did the Helfmann Hashkiveinu.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  It’s a wonder, he was a wonderful singer.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  But of course, I…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  But he was a troubled person.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014#t=2993.0,3013.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014/transcript/37004/annotation/152","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"LEVIN:  But I had to hold his hand.  And he didn’t coach the rhythm.  But the gift — glorious sound.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  But now, you know old he is?  Fifty-eight.  That’s right.  He’s 58.  But a glorious sound.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Anyway, so that was…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  So that was a, that was a great…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  A short-lived thing.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014#t=3013.0,3032.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014/transcript/37004/annotation/153","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"AVERY:  But it was a wonderful part of my life.  And, and it was, I sang Tully Hall, I…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  It was all in New York.  It didn’t, you didn’t…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  No, no.  We went, we were, we were in Wisconsin.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Oh, you did tour?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  We went to Wisconsin, we were in Boston.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  But what did do you do when you toured?  You took all the people from here or they hired some there?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014#t=3032.0,3048.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014/transcript/37004/annotation/154","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"AVERY:  It depended.  \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN: It depended.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY: Leave it to Paul.  Paul will do it.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  Paul would get, Paul would, sometimes the singers traveled with us.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Well, of course, you know, for the record…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  I mean, I did that…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  …Paul was in the business of public relations.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014#t=3048.0,3063.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014/transcript/37004/annotation/155","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"AVERY:  You know, you mentioned Smolover.  That, that gorgeous Friday night service — the one with orchestra, the Ben, the Ben-Haim.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  The Ben-Haim service.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  The Ben-Haim.  I…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Which, by the way, we’re recording as part of this.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014#t=3063.0,3075.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014/transcript/37004/annotation/156","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"AVERY:  Really?  Well, I sang that.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  If we can find the chorus and orchestra to do it.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  I also sang that.  We did, we, we did excerpts from that at Tully Hall.  And I was the…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  That’s right.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  I was the tenor.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  Yeah.  In fact, I just went…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Who conducted that?  Do you remember?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  Michnow.  Dennis…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Oh, Michnow did…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  Dennis conducted.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Is he still around?  I know he’s very sick.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014#t=3075.0,3094.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014/transcript/37004/annotation/157","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"AVERY:  He’s, he’s not sick.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  He had…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  And he’s not in New England anymore.  He’s in Wisconsin someplace.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  No.  But he had some, he had multiple sclerosis, or do — remember, there was some…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  A laib noch.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  No, that may be.  But…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  He’s fine.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Yeah?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014#t=3094.0,3108.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014/transcript/37004/annotation/158","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"AVERY:  He’s okay.  And he was a wonderful person to work with. The only thing I have against him is that at the end of a certain piece that he was supposed to play in G-minor, he put in a, he put in…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  A B-major?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  He made it — no, excuse me.  It was supposed to be E-minor and he put in…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  A G-sharp.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  A G-sharp.  And I was ready to kill him.  And it’s recorded.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  You mean, he did it deliberately?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014#t=3108.0,3131.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014/transcript/37004/annotation/159","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"AVERY:  No, it was a mistake.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Because there’s a recording, you know, the, the Maoz Tzur that is attributed to Marcello, but the…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  To Marcello.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  …only thing that’s Marcello is that he — no, this is so silly when people talk about Marcello.  In the first place, there is no harmonization.  It’s only single line.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  Of course not.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  And he didn’t create the melody.  He notated it from what he heard in the Italian Jewish community.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  Right, right.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014#t=3131.0,3154.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014/transcript/37004/annotation/160","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"LEVIN:  He notated 12 tunes.  He notated them so that he, because he was fascinated, and he said, let me notate 12 tunes that the Jews do.  Because it sounds interesting.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  I can use them…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  Sure.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  …in compositions.  So it actually is an authentic tune, if you take away the bylines.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  Yes.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014#t=3154.0,3171.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014/transcript/37004/annotation/161","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"LEVIN:  There’s a recording of it harmonized, I don’t know by who.  It’s fine.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  That’s not the problem.  With Zamir Chorale, but not Lazar.  Before Lazar.  You know, Stanley Sperber.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  Yes, okay.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  And one of — their famous recording, that has the Eishes Chayil of Ben Zion Shenker on it.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  Yes, yes…  \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN: A big recording.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:…yes, yes.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014#t=3171.0,3189.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014/transcript/37004/annotation/162","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"LEVIN:  And it goes like this.  (Sings)  Instead of (Sings).  You know why?  Because it was Ficta.  The musica Ficta.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  Oh, gee.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  And he misread the Ficta.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  Oh, God.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  And it’s on a recording like that with a, let’s say it would be A.  So…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  …instead of it’s A, G-sharp, but it should be A, G-natural.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  Oh, my.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014#t=3189.0,3210.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014/transcript/37004/annotation/163","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"LEVIN:  And that’s the way the recording went out.  And there’s thousands of those around.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  Yeah, yeah.  Because you know, you could also play the telephone game with some of those tunes.  And by the time it got around…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Yeah, that’s true, that’s true.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  …to him, to him, to him, it would, it would be the G-sharp.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  But that’s understandable.  That’s okay.  That’s folk music, the oral tradition.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  Yes.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  But in this case, there is a notation.  He just, you have to know what music, you have to know when it’s music of Ficta…","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014#t=3210.0,3234.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014/transcript/37004/annotation/164","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"AVERY:  Here’s an interesting story.  What, when I was in about my third year at, at HUC, years ago, by some coincidence, I met Leo Roitman.  I said, Roitman, the famous, the son of…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Of David Roitman.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014#t=3234.0,3252.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014/transcript/37004/annotation/165","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eAVERY:\u003c/strong\u003e Of David Roitman.  And I met his sister, also, whose name was Krause or Rause or something.  I don’t know. And I said to my, I said to Sarah, I said, “We’re going to meet these people.  They must have some music that maybe we can, maybe I can see or maybe….”","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014#t=3252.0,3269.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014/transcript/37004/annotation/166","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"So we spent an evening.  And, and a lovely romance took place between our families.  So much so that Leo, I talked Leo into donating the music to the Hebrew Union College, to —","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014#t=3269.0,3292.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014/transcript/37004/annotation/167","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eLEVIN:\u003c/strong\u003e Now, are those handwritten, as far as you know, in David Roitman’s own handwriting, or is someone…","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014#t=3292.0,3308.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014/transcript/37004/annotation/168","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"AVERY:  Yes.  All in all, in — not the copied stuff which exists today.  Which possibly…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  You never know if it’s Roitman or not, like anything else.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  Oh, no.  But I have the originals.  Or we had the originals.  And Leo came…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  And is it at Hebrew Union College today?  His copies?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  You mean are they there?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Are they there?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  They’re probably on the shelf somewhere, up in the stacks.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  But it’s copies, it’s photocopies.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  Photocopies.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014#t=3308.0,3330.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014/transcript/37004/annotation/169","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"LEVIN:  But nonetheless, those are David Roitman’s handwriting.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  I’ll show it to you.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  Some, scattered among the papers, are some original manuscripts.  I mean, you know, not photocopies.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  So you edited some of these things?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  Yes, I edited them and I published them.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Published them.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014#t=3330.0,3346.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014/transcript/37004/annotation/170","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eAVERY:\u003c/strong\u003e But when they were being donated to the, to the school, Leo said, “Do you think we can do something about copyrighting any of these things?” So Eric Werner said, “We don’t copyright this stuff.  This is folk music.  You don’t copyright folk music.” And of course, it was true.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014#t=3346.0,3370.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014/transcript/37004/annotation/171","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"One year, a young man did a master’s thesis.  I was his, I was his…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Advisor?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  …advisor.  In fact, what was his name again?  Paul Offenkrantz.  Do you know the name?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  I’ve heard the name.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014#t=3370.0,3386.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014/transcript/37004/annotation/172","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"AVERY:  Paul Offenkrantz, as a child, used to sing in the Met.  He used to be the little, the little…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Oh yeah, yeah.  Right.  Right.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  Paul went to HUC and graduated four years, five years and so forth.  At any rate, Paul’s master’s thesis was a comparison of the original music of Yossele Rosenblatt and David Roitman.  And to, and he compared the, you know, both the renown, the publicity…","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014#t=3386.0,3410.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014/transcript/37004/annotation/173","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"LEVIN:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  …the, the image, the, and so forth.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  And Roitman came out better than, than, than Rosenblatt. And the kid, Paul, however, whatever you may think of his voice, that has nothing to do with it — he was able to sing both Roitman and Rosenblatt very effectively and very, very dramatically.  It was a, it was an amazing, amazing thing.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014#t=3410.0,3433.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014/transcript/37004/annotation/174","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"À propos of that, just, just as an aside, the recital that is given at HUC at the end of the four or five years is an outgrowth of the master’s thesis, you see.  It isn’t stam — a recital.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014#t=3433.0,3456.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014/transcript/37004/annotation/175","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"It isn’t four songs by you know who and by, by, by that guy and this guy and so forth.  It’s something that is related directly — an expression a, a demonstration.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  A theme.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  Of the theme of — and I, I think that that’s a wonderful thing that we ought to think about a little more.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014#t=3456.0,3476.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014/transcript/37004/annotation/176","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"LEVIN:  Yeah, well, look.  These recitals are about…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  The recitals are almost meaningless.  Almost meaningless.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  They’re a problem.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Because in theory, somebody — and that’s the question, and without getting into…","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014#t=3476.0,3497.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014/transcript/37004/annotation/177","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"AVERY:  Okay.  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  …has to approve.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  Somebody.  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Now, let me put it this way.  We’ve gone through this before you were even involved in this.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  Okay.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  And the procedure used to be that the, every bit of the repertoire, I suppose…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  Had a past.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  …with the exception of an encore — You can’t stop an encore —\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  Right, right.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014#t=3497.0,3517.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014/transcript/37004/annotation/178","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"LEVIN:  — had to be approved…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  Approved by…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Well, whoever — it came down to Weisgall.  Which is okay, at least.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  That’s okay.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Whether you agree.  Or whether — look…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  That’s okay.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  …plenty of the things I disagree with Weisgall about.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  Right.  Yeah, but…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  For example, Weisgall argued with me that Lewandowski was inferior to Sulzer.  I think he’s wrong.  But that, but that’s because…","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014#t=3517.0,3535.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014/transcript/37004/annotation/179","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"AVERY:  But that’s a nice argument.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  That’s a nice argument.  Exactly.  But the fact is that — and he wouldn’t, probably, wouldn’t approve certain, more, light Yiddish things that I think are perfectly fine.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  Okay.  Okay.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Within whatever it is.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  Yeah.  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  You could approve.  Now the thing is that…","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014#t=3535.0,3554.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014/transcript/37004/annotation/180","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"AVERY:  But since Weisgall is gone…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  In theory, well, even in the last five years of Weisgall or more.  People started getting away, because — but what would happen was, he’d approve, you had to get written approval.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAnd what are you going to do if a student comes, even a week before, and says, “I’m sorry.  I’m singing this instead.”","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014#t=3554.0,3571.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014/transcript/37004/annotation/181","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"You — we never enforced what Juilliard would do, which is say, “Well, then, you’re not giving a recital.”  And if the guy would have the chutzpah to defy you, then he wouldn’t graduate.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  That’s right.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Now, there was a case where that, that actually happened, where it was enforced.  And these guys had to — yeah.  But this was what?  My first or second or third year of teaching there. But now, in the — but I’m in favor of that.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014#t=3571.0,3592.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014/transcript/37004/annotation/182","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"AVERY:  Okay.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Because otherwise, you get…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  Okay.  Then you and I agree on that.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  But you know, this is not the era of being, of wanting to, of putting yourself, as a faculty, putting oneself in a position of being unloved.  You see, so everyone’s afraid of that. But you know, it has to be approved.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014#t=3592.0,3611.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014/transcript/37004/annotation/183","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"If you feel that Havdalah shouldn’t be on the program, that person is free to do it at any recital except this one.  That’s my opinion.  In other words, because it’s a graduation requirement.  And therefore, it’s like an exam.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  I…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  It’s like an exam.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  I begged her not to sing that.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  No, I know.  I know.  All right, if it’s one thing.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Do it as an encore.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  That’s where you can do what’s not approved.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014#t=3611.0,3633.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014/transcript/37004/annotation/184","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"AVERY:  It’s a good encore.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  But you know, it’s, it gets out of hand, the recital business.  And what does it demonstrate?  I mean, I had people get up at a recital two years ago, three years ago, and do Machtenberg’s Shehekheyanu, with costumes.  Do it on their own time. You know? But anyway, that’s a different…","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014#t=3633.0,3658.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014/transcript/37004/annotation/185","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"AVERY:  With all the art music that exists…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  See, my wife is the, Sarah came to this recital the other night.  And she said, “How could the program exist, how could you do a program that isn’t all Jewish?” There’s enough music out there, from the ridiculous to the sublime…","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014#t=3658.0,3676.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014/transcript/37004/annotation/186","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"LEVIN:  Of course.  Well, no.  Part of the problem is that, without mentioning names, who is the coach for vocal…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  Yeah, but it, but it’s, the other, it’s what you said before.  The business of, of somebody who is of authority…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Well, that’s what I’m saying.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  Who’s, and to set up a set of standards and this is what we expect.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014#t=3676.0,3696.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014/transcript/37004/annotation/187","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eLEVIN:\u003c/strong\u003e Yes, but you understand that the problem is that the, the person who is doing this — and this is Weisgall’s fault, too, because he — the coaching and the collegium — I don’t know what they call a collegium — is simply a pia--, a singer’s coach from Tanglewood, of whom there are a hundred thousand in New York.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014#t=3696.0,3716.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014/transcript/37004/annotation/188","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"AVERY:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  And it has no bearing, so that you don’t have this here, you know.  When you were at Hebrew Union College…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  …let alone now, either way.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  Okay.  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  When you’d deal one-on-one with a student…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  Yeah?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  You don’t teach the way Razen taught you.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  Oh, of course not.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Not at all, do you?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  No.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014#t=3716.0,3730.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014/transcript/37004/annotation/189","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"LEVIN:  There’s no such, there’s no such thing as that procedure anymore, is there?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  No.  There’s, and if somebody said they, they wanted that, well, to whom would they go?  First of all, there’s a…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Yeah, now wait a minute.  That’s a good question.  To whom would they go?  I know I’d have an answer.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  Well, Julius is gone.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  And Julius is somebody that, that, that, people also went to.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014#t=3730.0,3750.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014/transcript/37004/annotation/190","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"LEVIN:  I’ve got things that Julius wrote out, every note for Saul Zinn’s bar mitzvah…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  Absolutely.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  …so that Saul Zinn could daven, start to finish, but for a 13-year-old.  But who today…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  I have an entire Seder, the nussakh for a Seder…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Yeah?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  …which was given to me by some guy who is now a retired cantor.  I said, “Where did you get this?” He says, “Oscar wrote it out for me.”\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Yeah.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014#t=3750.0,3774.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014/transcript/37004/annotation/191","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"AVERY:  He says, “Because I was doing public Seders.”\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Yeah.  They wrote it out.  You see, I once went to Lind.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  Yeah?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  In 1972.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  Well, he was the guy in, in the Midwest.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014#t=3774.0,3784.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014/transcript/37004/annotation/192","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"LEVIN:  And that’s who I worked with.  He was the guy.  And I knew him very well, in other words.  And I said, “Listen, you’ve got to help me out here.  I need, right away, something.  Find something in your….” You know, he didn’t know from a file cabinet.  You know what his file cabinet was?  (Avery points to his head)  Dozens… no.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  No?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014#t=3784.0,3799.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014/transcript/37004/annotation/193","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"LEVIN:  Dozens and dozens of old, beaten-up leather pouches.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  Oh.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  And suitcases.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  Oh.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  He’d pull out from a suitcase that he hadn’t touched.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  “Here’s a, here’s a, here’s a good piece.”\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  It all came to a couple of, “Ooh, it’s so beautiful, so beautiful.”  Then he would kiss the music.  “Ooh mmwah!  So beautiful.” And he was — so I said to him, “Look.  I need something for Ne’ilah.” I just got a boy alto.  A yeshiva kvetcher.  A kid, you know (sings nasally).  You know, the kind of…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  Yeah.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014#t=3799.0,3831.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014/transcript/37004/annotation/194","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"LEVIN:  Okay, I thought it was cute at that time.  It also antagonized a lot of people, which I liked, so…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  So I said, “I need a little passage.  Something for him to do a duet with a cantor who has a two and a half note range.”\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  Okay.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  All right, a supposedly baritone.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  Yeah?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Non-tone, really.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  Yeah.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014#t=3831.0,3849.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014/transcript/37004/annotation/195","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"LEVIN:  And he can sing, there are three and anywhere — give me something.  How about, like in a B’motzei b’menukhah, because the choir is not going to sing all the stroves.  So pick one of the intermittent stroves that nobody sings.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  Yes, yes, yes.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014#t=3849.0,3863.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014/transcript/37004/annotation/196","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"LEVIN:  So he thinks, he says, he looks up, “How about Zochalim k’mav kirov…”\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  Yeah, yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Which is really funny.  So I said fine.  So give it to me.  He says, “I’ll, I’ll pay you for it.  I’ll buy it from you.” “No, that’s not the point.  Come back in an hour.” I come back in an hour and he said — this was 1972.  He’s sitting with a pen and ink that you dip in the ink, because that’s his habit.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  And he’s writing, yeah.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014#t=3863.0,3888.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014/transcript/37004/annotation/197","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"LEVIN:  And he’s writing out, but he’s not composing from scratch.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  No, of course not.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  He’s written the same thing out 50 times…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  Of course.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  …in a different key with one note change…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  Right.  A little variation.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014#t=3888.0,3896.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014/transcript/37004/annotation/198","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"LEVIN:  …as long as they, and that’s what you’re talking about, you see.  I read it.  Which of course, it was really funny, when you stop to think of it.  I didn’t even stop to think. Somebody came up to me and said, “What are you having an 11-year-old boy singing Zochalim k’mav kirov, sick like a woman in childbirth?”\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  Yes.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014#t=3896.0,3911.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014/transcript/37004/annotation/199","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"LEVIN:  And you know.  And but that’s what he did.  He wrote out each note.  Now today, who would you go to…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  There ain’t nobody.  There’s nobody to do it.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  I’ll tell you who does it.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  Who?  Noach?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  But, yeah.  But in a much more learned way.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  Yeah, but he’s the only — yeah, but he’s the only…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Yeah, he’s the only one.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  And again, again, he’s not, he’s just drawing from the…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Yeah.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014#t=3911.0,3930.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014/transcript/37004/annotation/200","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"AVERY:  …hundreds of, of times that he’d…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Do you know David Levine?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  Uh…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  David Levine, Levine, I think.  Levine, maybe.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  Yeah.  Yeah.  He was a, was he a hazzan in Baltimore for a while?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  He’s been a hazzan everywhere for a year at a time.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  Right, right, right.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014#t=3930.0,3944.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014/transcript/37004/annotation/201","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"LEVIN:  I don’t know if he was in Baltimore.  He probably was.  And for a while he was in on 90th…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  It’s not Joe Levine, is it?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  No, no.  Joe Levine is in Philadelphia.  That’s a different…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  Okay.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  He’s the one that’s in the asbestos business.  But he got a Ph.D. from the Seminary.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  Okay right, right.  Okay, David Levine.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014#t=3944.0,3958.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014/transcript/37004/annotation/202","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"LEVIN:  No, David Levine, no, okay.  Anyway, he didn’t have any degree from anywhere.  But he’s been everywhere you can imagine.  Everywhere you can imagine.  And auditioned for ten times more.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  Yes.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  And he goes to, in, he’s got the size…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  And?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  …every note of every service…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  Right.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  …for everything, including the Kedushah responses…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  And he’ll sell it to you.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  …written out.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014#t=3958.0,3977.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014/transcript/37004/annotation/203","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"AVERY:  And you can buy it from him.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  No.  You can’t buy it from him.  No.  They’re written out.  But he has five different versions of it all.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  Oh and, and…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  It depends on what voice he is in that day…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  All right.  Oh the — and he never goes on the amud without the, without the book?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  He… let me tell you something.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  Right?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014#t=3977.0,3990.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014/transcript/37004/annotation/204","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"LEVIN:  Worse than that.  When he…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  Yes.  I’ve heard him.  I heard him when he was…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  He walks around, with the Torah procession, he has to have somebody walk backwards, so that he can…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  So they can… yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  …sing.  He cannot memorize Rommemu or whatever it is.  All right?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014#t=3990.0,4004.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014/transcript/37004/annotation/205","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"AVERY:  I think he has a visual problem, a vision problem, too.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  No.  Not that I know of.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  I think so.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  I don’t think so.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  I heard him daven in, in Baltimore.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  But the thing is that he went to Noach and he,  because he told me.  He said, “I’ve spent thousands of dollars.”  He let me know right out.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  But there, there’s no one of, there’s no one…","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014#t=4004.0,4019.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014/transcript/37004/annotation/206","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"LEVIN:  I’ll tell you who wrote out all the davenning, which I just got a hold of very recently.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  Who?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Very recently.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  Who?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  This is a real find, if you ever wanted to switch.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  Who?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Braslowsky in Boston.  No, this is stuff you haven’t seen.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  Yeah, but…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  This is not what you think Braslowsky.  No one’s ever seen this before.  I just found it recently.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014#t=4019.0,4038.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014/transcript/37004/annotation/207","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"AVERY:  Okay.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Every note — I’m talking about, all the, from Malkhuyos, Shofaros, Zichoronos, but from beginning to end.  In a zogging way, but artistic.  You know what I mean?  Not, not…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  Incidentally, Roitman did write out something like that.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Yeah?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  For Leo.  Very bad.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014#t=4038.0,4057.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014/transcript/37004/annotation/208","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"LEVIN:  Oh well, that’s…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  Very badly.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  The Braslowsky is good.  But you’ve still got to bring yourself into it.  You can’t copy, just sing it note for note.  There’s nothing — it’s not sacred, in the sense that you can’t change a phrase if you, if it’s better for your voice.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  Of course.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Am I right?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  Absolutely.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Do you agree with me?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014#t=4057.0,4070.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014/transcript/37004/annotation/209","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eAVERY:\u003c/strong\u003e Absolutely.  But you’ve got to start, you have… this is the way we, this is the way many of us started.  This is, you sort of knew, but you, it was, it was firmed up for you by some master Eastern European authority.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014#t=4070.0,4091.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014/transcript/37004/annotation/210","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Once you had that, then you could, once again, depart from it, you see.  Or depart from it and, and, and then maybe even evolve your own style. I’m sure that some of the other greats who were, who were meshorerim, you see, didn’t need that at all.  That, that would be the Euro, the European style.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014#t=4091.0,4113.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014/transcript/37004/annotation/211","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eLEVIN:\u003c/strong\u003e I don’t know of any — well, maybe they didn’t know.  Look, I take it back.  Actually, the first one… see we could, one is, on the other hand, people can make fun of a reliance, the reliance upon, or Razen’s writing out every note, or Lind or anything.  And you know…","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014#t=4113.0,4131.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014/transcript/37004/annotation/212","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"AVERY:  Zemochson was another one.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  And Zemochson, yeah.  Every note, rather than a hazzan being able to do — I’m talking about every note.  Places where you don’t want to have a recitative, where you just want a zog…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  Right.  Right.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  …but a hazzan who can’t zog on his own…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  Right.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  …which he should need every note.  But frankly, I know I can tell you the first one to do that.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014#t=4131.0,4148.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014/transcript/37004/annotation/213","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"AVERY:  Was?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Sulzer.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  Oh.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  And then Lewandowski.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  Well.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  And the thing is that Lewandowski didn’t, unless you go to the original, because the out of print classics — remember when they did the out of print classics?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  Sure.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014#t=4148.0,4162.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014/transcript/37004/annotation/214","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"LEVIN:  They left out his preface.  They didn’t, they excluded his preface.  Because they figured, it made no sense by the way.  Because it’s in German.  And who’s going to be able to read it?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  And it’s ridiculous, because some of the other volumes, they did include that German preface.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  Yes, yes.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  It was a very sloppily done…","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014#t=4162.0,4180.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014/transcript/37004/annotation/215","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"AVERY:  I think that was Werner, Werner’s fault.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Yeah.  It was every…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  It was very sloppily done.  He may even — who knows what his agenda?  He may have had an agenda that he didn’t want the preface read.  But, because what the preface says is, “First of all, I’m writing for K’lal Yisroel.”\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  Uh-huh.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014#t=4180.0,4194.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014/transcript/37004/annotation/216","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"LEVIN:  “And I want Orthodox to do my music.  Therefore, I’m making organ parts very simple, and they could be, and every piece here could be done without the organ.”\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  Without, without the organ.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  He says that in the preface.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  Yes.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  But he also says, he says, “Why am I writing out all these cantorial things in between, that have no choir, that it’s just word for word…”\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  Yeah, yeah…","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014#t=4194.0,4209.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014/transcript/37004/annotation/217","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"LEVIN:  “…syllabic, no repetition of words…”\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  “…for every bit of the…”\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  Yes.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  You know, (INAUDIBLE) — things that are not done in his synagogue, anyway.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  He said, “Because I’m writing for K’lal Yisroel.  But also, because nowadays, the next generation of cantors is going to need that.” And that was then.  So maybe we shouldn’t make fun of writing out every note.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014#t=4209.0,4231.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014/transcript/37004/annotation/218","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"AVERY:  We shouldn’t.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  You know what I mean?  I mean, Lewandowski was doing it.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  Absolutely.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  It’s just that people don’t realize it.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  Absolutely.  You’re right.  You’re right.  Eventually, you throw it away.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Yeah.  And you can do what you want.  But at least you’ve got it there.  In a tasteful way.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014#t=4231.0,4244.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014/transcript/37004/annotation/219","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"AVERY:  Right.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  You know.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  And if you’re really an inspired musician, then, then maybe you begin to create your own.  Then you start, then you start writing all over again.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Then you do a workshop called “Making It Your Own.”\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  I’ve done that.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  I know.  That’s why I’m…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  Ha-ha.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014#t=4244.0,4258.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014/transcript/37004/annotation/220","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"LEVIN:  Isn’t that the title of your workshop?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  That was that thing that I did for the…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  At the Cantor’s Convention once?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  …for the Cantor’s once, once for the Cantor’s…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  “Making It Your Own — Recitatives.”\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  It was something like that.  It wasn’t my idea.  The, the name came from Jackie.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Oh.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  It was Jackie’s idea.  Either from Jackie or from or from, from Kieval.  But what, whatever.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014#t=4258.0,4275.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014/transcript/37004/annotation/221","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"LEVIN:  It was something…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  Something like that.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  “Recitatives — Making it Your Own,” or something like that.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  Yes, yes, yes, yeah, yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  But it was an interesting concept.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  I’ve done a lot of things.  A lot of things.  And to some extent, I’m still doing it.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014#t=4275.0,4289.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014/transcript/37004/annotation/222","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"LEVIN:  Now, what are — now, that’s another question.  You’re supposed to be retired now.  But you’re not, really?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  Okay.  In my, in the congregation, I get a quota of kids to teach, mainly through legacy.  In other words, if I taught two other kids in the family, then…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  They want you.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  …they want me.  And, and the rabbi will, will….  But basically, they, they’re feeding kids to, to the regular hazzan and to the regular assistant hazzan, who is the ba’al koreh.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014#t=4289.0,4318.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014/transcript/37004/annotation/223","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"LEVIN:  Who is the hazzan there now?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  The hazzan is Dardashti.  Farid is, is the guy who succeeded him.  So he’s hazzan by…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Where is his brother?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  I think he’s in New Jersey somewhere.  Cherry Hill or something like that. So Dardashti is the hazzan and he teaches, along with a fellow named Uri Aqua.  You know who Uri is?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014#t=4318.0,4339.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014/transcript/37004/annotation/224","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"LEVIN:  No.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  Uri was also one, one — well, Uri was once also part of the, of, in the, in the, in the school at the Seminary, but he didn’t make it.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Not in my time.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  No?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Uri Aqua?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  Aqua, yes.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  No.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014#t=4339.0,4353.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014/transcript/37004/annotation/225","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"AVERY:  Really?  Okay.  He’s got a degree from the Seminary.  But not from the Cantor’s Institute.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Not before, maybe after ’82.  Oh, not from the Cantor’s…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  Not from the Cantor’s Institute.  But he originally started out there.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Oh, well.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014#t=4353.0,4365.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014/transcript/37004/annotation/226","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eAVERY:\u003c/strong\u003e He just, he couldn’t, he, he couldn’t deal with the music part of it.  He always said to me when, when, when we would discuss the nussakh of something, I would say, “Uri, when you do P’sukei D’zmirah, it, it has to have to have a sort of a, a major feeling to it.  A little bit like Shir Ha-Shirim, you know.” He says, “You make me a tape.”  He says, “If you make me a tape,” he says, “I will learn it.”  Don’t, delete that from the, from the recording.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014#t=4365.0,4394.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014/transcript/37004/annotation/227","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"LEVIN:  A tape.  Well, that’s nothing.  But anyway, so you’re supposed to be retired.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  Maybe that’s what they, that’s, maybe that’s what’s wrong with hazzanas today.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  The existence of tapes.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  It’s so easy.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  No.  It doesn’t — yeah, it’s true.  But it is, to a certain, but before tapes, there’s always…","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014#t=4394.0,4413.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014/transcript/37004/annotation/228","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"AVERY:  Before tapes, you had to do something privately.  Or you had to do it from a, from a written manuscript.  But once we got tape…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Well, of course, that’s true.  They imitate, they put on, they imitate….  Look, I have to tell you…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  You can do…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  What’s the biggest thing going on now?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  The LP, yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  The, is this, this particular, whatever, cantorette, who is famous for imitation of Pinchik’s Raza de-Shabbat.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014#t=4413.0,4442.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014/transcript/37004/annotation/229","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"AVERY:  Yes, okay.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Okay?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  Yes.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  I mean, I am totally against it.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  Well, first of all, it’s boring.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Because-- it’s boring.  Because it’s not, and I told my students this in the beginning, I wasn’t talking about her directly, but in general. Because I would say, if someone wants to do Raza de-Shabbat in a concert because “I heard her do it”, so well let me tell you something.  We have a recording of Pinchik doing it.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  Yes.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014#t=4442.0,4469.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014/transcript/37004/annotation/230","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"LEVIN:  Do you think you’re going to do it better?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  Nobody could do it like…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  There is not room, in my opinion.  Now, I’ve heard an argument to the contrary by her…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  Yes.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  …that in my opinion, it’s not — a Beethoven sonata, there is room for all kinds of interpretation.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014#t=4469.0,6371.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014/transcript/37004/annotation/231","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"AVERY:  Okay.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  There is not room for other interpretation here.  Because if, the whole thing is in the voice.  It’s in Pinchik’s voice.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014#t=6371.0,4486.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014/transcript/37004/annotation/232","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"AVERY:  The whole thing was in the charm and the beauty of the, what that man could do.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Right.  It’s the rendition.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  Right, right.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  It doesn’t have a meaning.  I’m not so sure that that doesn’t apply to a lot of things.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  You bet.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  You see.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  It applies to many of the things that Ganchoff has done.  Just because the man had such charisma in his performances.  Even when he was not in good voice.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014#t=4486.0,4507.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014/transcript/37004/annotation/233","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"LEVIN:  Yeah, I’ll give you an analogy.  And I tell this to my students. Horowitz used to play Stars and Stripes Forever.  Have you ever heard a recording of that?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  Yes, yes.  I heard it… \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  There’s one recording.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  I heard it as an encore.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Yeah.  Okay.  And he played that.  Now, he wouldn’t ever play it after 19, when he made his comeback in ’65, he refused, because he didn’t want to be associated…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  Yeah.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014#t=4507.0,4524.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014/transcript/37004/annotation/234","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"LEVIN:  …because that’s what he was famous for.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  And then Mike Wallace asked him that time to play — did you ever see that show?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  I don’t think so.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Well, what Wallace — and he was talking, he was carrying on about — this wasn’t on the table, the subject, at all.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  Yeah?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  And he was, in the ‘70s, and he was going on about how he loved America.  And he was an American and this and this.  And he says, “I love this country.  This is the greatest country in the world.  I love America.  Went to America, anyone can rise.” And so Wallace said, “Well, wait a second.  Hold on.  If you love America so much…”\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  Play the Stars and…","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014#t=4524.0,4557.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014/transcript/37004/annotation/235","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"LEVIN:  …and he said, “I know what you’re going to ask me, and the answer is no.”\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAnd anyway, he got up at the piano and he played a few bars, but he couldn’t do it.  And the thing is, a lot, there were these typical type of Juilliard students who used to listen because — and transcribe it.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  And there are people who can do it note for note you know?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  Yeah.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014#t=4557.0,4573.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014/transcript/37004/annotation/236","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"LEVIN:  Who are takedown artists.  Who would do it and, there are floating around, if I wanted to, I know somebody who has all the transcriptions, from a takedown artist, of every Horowitz transcription…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  Yes.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  …all from takedown.  Right?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  Okay.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  The point is, should anyone ever play that?  And as an encore, even?  And the answer to me is, absolutely not.  He did that, if he wanted to, he would have published it.  That’s his trick.  It was for his hands, it was for his trick. And I feel the same way about this.  Raza de-Shabbat.  I don’t know.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014#t=4573.0,4600.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014/transcript/37004/annotation/237","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eAVERY:\u003c/strong\u003e You know, I once asked Lazar Weiner, I said there’s, there’s this beautiful recording of Oyfen Veg Shey Taboym (sings).  I said, and I said, “And the way you play it, the, the, the arrangement is so beautiful.”  I said, “Couldn’t we have it?”","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014#t=4600.0,4620.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014/transcript/37004/annotation/238","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eLEVIN:\u003c/strong\u003e Schiff?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014#t=4620.0,4641.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014/transcript/37004/annotation/239","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"AVERY:  No, the bass, the bass-baritone.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Oh, oh, oh, yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  The guy, who is it?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Lischner.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  Lischner, yes.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Leon Lischner.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  And it’s such a gorgeous piece.  And I said, I must have it.  I got it transcribed from the thing.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Oh, yeah.  You can…","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014#t=4641.0,4656.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014/transcript/37004/annotation/240","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"AVERY:  So I said to him, I said, “You know, you’re a foolish man.”  I said, “It’s been transcribed already.”  I said, “Wouldn’t you, wouldn’t you feel better…”\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  That’s, there I agree with you.  This is, but that’s a, because it’s a different reason.  It’s a different case.  That’s, he just is sort of peculiar.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  Yes.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  I mean, that’s like all these guys who wouldn’t give their music (INAUDIBLE).  Julius wouldn’t give, this one wouldn’t give.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  I know, I know, I know.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  That’s a, that’s ridiculous, because they’re living in the era…","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014#t=4656.0,4680.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014/transcript/37004/annotation/241","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"AVERY:  But Weiner was a, basically he was a very generous man.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Yeah, that’s…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  Whenever I asked him for anything, he would give, he would give me a piece.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  It’s, and…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  No, that’s…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  Even though Bob was his, was his great protégé.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Bob Abelson.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  Bob Abelson.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAVERY:  Yes.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40381/file/112014#t=4680.0,4706.112"}]}]}]}