{"@context":"http://iiif.io/api/presentation/3/context.json","id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/iiif/3f4kk94t5p/manifest","type":"Manifest","label":{"en":["Raeburn, Bruce"]},"logo":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/organizations/logo_images/000/000/115/original/Boxed_Milken_Center_logo.png?1628711583","metadata":[{"label":{"en":["Preferred Citation"]},"value":{"en":["\u003cp\u003eRaeburn, Bruce. 1999. Interview by Neil Levin. Milken Archive Oral History Project. 23 April.\u003c/p\u003e"]}},{"label":{"en":["Publisher"]},"value":{"en":["Milken Family Foundation"]}},{"label":{"en":["Rights Statement"]},"value":{"en":["\u003cp\u003e© Milken Family Foundation. Unauthorized use is prohibited. For inquiries, please contact info@milkenarchive.org.\u003c/p\u003e"]}},{"label":{"en":["Agent"]},"value":{"en":["Raeburn, Bruce (Curator)","Levin, Neil (Interviewer)"]}},{"label":{"en":["Date"]},"value":{"en":["1999-04-23"]}},{"label":{"en":["Coverage"]},"value":{"en":["New Orleans, LA (Place of Recording)"]}},{"label":{"en":["Language"]},"value":{"en":["English (Primary)"]}},{"label":{"en":["Description"]},"value":{"en":["\u003cp\u003eInterview with Bruce Raeburn, curator of the Hogan Jazz Archive in New Orleans, LA, which is the world’s largest collection of oral histories on jazz, specifically the early development of New Orleans jazz. One topic of discussion revolves around the earliest references to Jewish jazz players, which Raeburn says can be found in Frederic Ramsey Jr.’s \u003cem\u003eJazzmen\u003c/em\u003e (1939): “Monty” Korn who played with Jack Laine’s Reliance Brass Band; Raeburn provides additional stories about other Jewish jazz musicians from this period. Another topic covered is the Jewish community of New Orleans in the early twentieth century, and the ways in which early jazz was multicultural from its inception. \u003c/p\u003e"]}},{"label":{"en":["Format"]},"value":{"en":["Beta SP"]}},{"label":{"en":["Subject"]},"value":{"en":["Jazz--Louisiana--New Orleans--History and criticism (Topical Term)","Music and dance (Topical Term)","African Americans--Music (Topical Term)","Ramsey, Frederic, Jr., 1915-1995 (Person or Corporate Body)"]}},{"label":{"en":["Keyword"]},"value":{"en":["American Federation of Musicians Local 174, Charles Davidson (b. 1929), clarinet, classical music, creole music, dance music, Dave Brubeck (1920-2012), Edward \"Kid\" Ory (1886-1973), Godfrey Hirsch, Hogan Jazz Archive, Hollywood, CA, Irving Berlin (1888-1989), Laine’s Reliance Brass Band, jazz, Leon Prima (1907-1985), New Orleans, LA, New Orleans jazz, Charles Frederic Ramsey, Jr. (1915-1995), Original Dixieland Jazz Band, Papa Jack Laine (1873-1966), race, riverboat, saxophone, segregation, The Streckfus Steamboat Line"]}}],"summary":{"en":["\u003cp\u003eInterview with Bruce Raeburn, curator of the Hogan Jazz Archive in New Orleans, LA, which is the world\u0026rsquo;s largest collection of oral histories on jazz, specifically the early development of New Orleans jazz. One topic of discussion revolves around the earliest references to Jewish jazz players, which Raeburn says can be found in Frederic Ramsey Jr.\u0026rsquo;s \u003cem\u003eJazzmen\u003c/em\u003e (1939): \u0026ldquo;Monty\u0026rdquo; Korn who played with Jack Laine\u0026rsquo;s Reliance Brass Band; Raeburn provides additional stories about other Jewish jazz musicians from this period. Another topic covered is the Jewish community of New Orleans in the early twentieth century, and the ways in which early jazz was multicultural from its inception.\u0026nbsp;\u003c/p\u003e"]},"requiredStatement":{"label":{"en":["Attribution"]},"value":{"en":["\u003cp\u003e\u0026copy; Milken Family Foundation. Unauthorized use is prohibited. For inquiries, please contact info@milkenarchive.org.\u003c/p\u003e"]}},"provider":[{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/aboutus","type":"Agent","label":{"en":["Lowell Milken Center for Music of American Jewish Experience"]},"homepage":[{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/","type":"Text","label":{"en":["Lowell Milken Center for Music of American Jewish Experience"]},"format":"text/html"}],"logo":[{"id":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/organizations/logo_images/000/000/115/original/Boxed_Milken_Center_logo.png?1628711583","type":"Image"}]}],"thumbnail":[{"id":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/collection_resource_files/thumbnails/000/111/983/small/Rayburn.jpg?1622559405","type":"Image","format":"image/jpeg"}],"items":[{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40318/file/111983","type":"Canvas","label":{"en":["Media File 1 of 1 - B11751_MA_OH_Bruce_Rayburn_Master_2017_Logo.mp4"]},"duration":1519.01867,"width":640,"height":360,"thumbnail":[{"id":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/collection_resource_files/thumbnails/000/111/983/small/Rayburn.jpg?1622559405","type":"Image","format":"image/jpeg"}],"items":[{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40318/file/111983/content/1","type":"AnnotationPage","items":[{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40318/file/111983/content/1/annotation/1","type":"Annotation","motivation":"painting","body":{"id":"https://aviary-p-milken.s3.wasabisys.com/collection_resource_files/resource_files/000/111/983/original/B11751_MA_OH_Bruce_Rayburn_Master_2017_Logo.mp4?1619789119","type":"Video","format":"video/mp4","duration":1519.01867,"width":640,"height":360},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40318/file/111983","metadata":[]}]}],"annotations":[{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40318/file/111983/transcript/25008","type":"AnnotationPage","label":{"en":["AUTO_TRINT_B11751_MA_OH_Bruce_Rayburn_Master_2017_Logo.mp4 [Transcript]"]},"items":[{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40318/file/111983/transcript/25008/annotation/1","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eLEVIN:\u003c/strong\u003e Briefly, what is the Hogan Jazz Archive?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40318/file/111983#t=15.87,17.46"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40318/file/111983/transcript/25008/annotation/2","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eRAEBURN:\u003c/strong\u003e The Jazz Archive is a research center, which is a collection primarily of oral histories that were conducted under the auspices of a Ford Foundation grant beginning in 1958 -- fieldwork still ongoing. We've amassed about 2000 reels of interviews with musicians of all descriptions who were involved in the early development of New Orleans jazz.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40318/file/111983#t=18.84,39.84"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40318/file/111983/transcript/25008/annotation/3","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eLEVIN:\u003c/strong\u003e And you've been involved -- how long you've been involved?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40318/file/111983#t=41.4,42.99"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40318/file/111983/transcript/25008/annotation/4","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eRAEBURN:\u003c/strong\u003e Well, I actually began as a student worker in 1980 and became curator in January of 1989. But my father was a Big Band leader in New York and my mom was a jazz singer that worked with Boyd Raeburn, with Harry James, and Gene Krupa, and Charlie Barnet. So I kind of grew up with an appreciation of jazz.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40318/file/111983#t=43.26,59.91"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40318/file/111983/transcript/25008/annotation/5","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eLEVIN:\u003c/strong\u003e Your father was in New York?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40318/file/111983#t=60.95,62.31"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40318/file/111983/transcript/25008/annotation/6","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eRAEBURN:\u003c/strong\u003e Yeah.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40318/file/111983#t=62.67,62.67"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40318/file/111983/transcript/25008/annotation/7","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eLEVIN:\u003c/strong\u003e Big family, yeah.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40318/file/111983#t=62.91,63.084"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40318/file/111983/transcript/25008/annotation/8","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eRAEBURN:\u003c/strong\u003e Originally Chicago, then New York, then Hollywood.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40318/file/111983#t=63.63,65.459"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40318/file/111983/transcript/25008/annotation/9","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eLEVIN:\u003c/strong\u003e What was his name?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40318/file/111983#t=66.03,66.037"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40318/file/111983/transcript/25008/annotation/10","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eRAEBURN:\u003c/strong\u003e Boyd Raeburn.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40318/file/111983#t=66.54,66.659"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40318/file/111983/transcript/25008/annotation/11","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eLEVIN:\u003c/strong\u003e Boyd Raeburn. Yeah. And I assume this is -- well, this has got to be maybe the biggest or one of the biggest jazz archives.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40318/file/111983#t=66.915,74.58"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40318/file/111983/transcript/25008/annotation/12","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eRAEBURN:\u003c/strong\u003e Well, it's the most in-depth collection on New Orleans style jazz and New Orleans music. There's another jazz archive called the Institute of Jazz Studies at Rutgers University, which takes a more holistic approach to collecting jazz information. But this is the largest oral history collection on jazz anywhere in the world.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40318/file/111983#t=75.42,91.5"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40318/file/111983/transcript/25008/annotation/13","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eLEVIN:\u003c/strong\u003e And we want to talk a little bit about what you were telling me, which is the involvement of, and contribution of, Jewish musicians to the jazz tradition. We're talking about what, the turn of the century?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40318/file/111983#t=91.98,107.94"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40318/file/111983/transcript/25008/annotation/14","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eRAEBURN:\u003c/strong\u003e Beginning about 1900 -- lacking concrete evidence to really pinpoint the exact date -- beginning around the turn of the century, in other words, jazz begins to emerge in New Orleans and evolves into a kind of initial jazz idiom by about 1917 or so. So roughly between 1900 and 1917, things were getting very interesting in New Orleans.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40318/file/111983#t=110.09,132.29"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40318/file/111983/transcript/25008/annotation/15","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eLEVIN:\u003c/strong\u003e And this is your primary research? That time frame?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40318/file/111983#t=133.25,138.32"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40318/file/111983/transcript/25008/annotation/16","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eRAEBURN:\u003c/strong\u003e That's correct. I specialize in the New Orleans musical culture.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40318/file/111983#t=138.74,141.62"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40318/file/111983/transcript/25008/annotation/17","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eLEVIN:\u003c/strong\u003e So tell me about -- I mean, we don't generally think about Jewish or even Jews -- I mean, I'm not suggesting there's anything Jewish necessarily on the content side of things, but. I mean, we, in the first place the most improvisatory part of Judaicly related instrumental music is from Eastern Europe, not from the German speaking sphere. And yet we know that the bulk, if not -- at that time, the vast majority of Jews in this area were not from that sphere, but from the German speaking sphere where classical music tradition reigned.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40318/file/111983#t=142.43,182.13"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40318/file/111983/transcript/25008/annotation/18","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eRAEBURN:\u003c/strong\u003e One of the earliest references to a Jewish jazzman appears in one of the first American histories of jazz. It's called Jazz Men, and it came out in 1939. And there's a very brief but enticing reference to a, quote, \"crying clarinet player\" by the name of \"Monty\" Korn in New Orleans. And the relation is that he played with Jack Laine's Reliance Bands. And Laine was one of the earliest white bandleaders to have a band that did what they called ragtime, but in retrospect, most people would probably recognize as jazz.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40318/file/111983#t=183.3,216.39"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40318/file/111983/transcript/25008/annotation/19","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eRAEBURN:\u003c/strong\u003e And that's really all that was said about him and no one was really sure who he was. I began digging around a little bit -- and with some help from other researchers -- found that he was in fact the son of a rabbi named Jacob Korn. And they had emigrated from Germany in the late 19th century and come to New Orleans.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40318/file/111983#t=217.38,234.87"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40318/file/111983/transcript/25008/annotation/20","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eRAEBURN:\u003c/strong\u003e And Jacob had other sons who also became members of Laine's Reliance bands. One was called Marcus Korn, who was a trombone player. And their names come up in some of the oral history interviews. And two things are established.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40318/file/111983#t=235.74,249.06"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40318/file/111983/transcript/25008/annotation/21","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eRAEBURN:\u003c/strong\u003e One is that they are not reading musicians. They are faking musicians. Which lends credence to this jazz connection and particularly Korn's \"crying clarinet\" seems to have been something that fit right in with Creole styles of clarinet and other groups present in New Orleans who were developing the jazz idiom.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40318/file/111983#t=249.72,268.98"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40318/file/111983/transcript/25008/annotation/22","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eRAEBURN:\u003c/strong\u003e And so what you find is a connection, which one wonders -- \"crying clarinet\" -- it almost sounds like it's redolent of a klezmer connection, but there's really nothing to substantiate that.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40318/file/111983#t=269.34,280.68"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40318/file/111983/transcript/25008/annotation/23","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eLEVIN:\u003c/strong\u003e Well, that's what I was getting at. This, what's referred to today, erroneously, but nonetheless, is klezmer music, because the translation makes no sense. It means \"musicians' music.\" Klezmer just means music.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40318/file/111983#t=281.07,291.731"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40318/file/111983/transcript/25008/annotation/24","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eRAEBURN:\u003c/strong\u003e That's what they call jazz too.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40318/file/111983#t=293.01,294.07"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40318/file/111983/transcript/25008/annotation/25","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eLEVIN:\u003c/strong\u003e Yeah. It doesn't mean any one particular style or mode or I mean. What it meant is 19th century Eastern European klezmorim's music. But in any case -- as long as we know what we're talking about -- that's the opposite side of the fence. If you told me that Korn had come from the Ukraine, I would say, \"well, that might be one of the first introductions of this type of thing.\" But coming from Germany...","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40318/file/111983#t=294.819,320.55"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40318/file/111983/transcript/25008/annotation/26","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eRAEBURN:\u003c/strong\u003e Yeah.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40318/file/111983#t=321.09,321.09"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40318/file/111983/transcript/25008/annotation/27","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eLEVIN:\u003c/strong\u003e ...it's even more unusual.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40318/file/111983#t=321.6,322.44"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40318/file/111983/transcript/25008/annotation/28","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eRAEBURN:\u003c/strong\u003e He was born in 1876 in Austerlitz, Germany. And so one wonders, of course, about the dissemination of all these musical styles. I'm more familiar with what happens with jazz, but it's definitely diffusion when you start looking at how jazz moves to Los Angeles or Chicago or New York after kind of percolating from the bottom up in New Orleans.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40318/file/111983#t=323.07,345.09"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40318/file/111983/transcript/25008/annotation/29","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eRAEBURN:\u003c/strong\u003e But I think part of the emphasis that has to be made here is that, first of all, the Jewish community in New Orleans was highly assimilated into the cultural life of New Orleans. And secondly, that jazz, in spite of coming from what might be called an African-American heritage threshold, is something that had multicultural characteristics virtually at the inception.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40318/file/111983#t=345.81,368.19"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40318/file/111983/transcript/25008/annotation/30","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eLEVIN:\u003c/strong\u003e In what -- just if we can elaborate a little bit on multicultural characteristics...","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40318/file/111983#t=370.24,375.01"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40318/file/111983/transcript/25008/annotation/31","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eRAEBURN:\u003c/strong\u003e Well...","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40318/file/111983#t=375.09,375.09"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40318/file/111983/transcript/25008/annotation/32","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eLEVIN:\u003c/strong\u003e ...to make sure I know to what you're referring.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40318/file/111983#t=376.45,377.89"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40318/file/111983/transcript/25008/annotation/33","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eRAEBURN:\u003c/strong\u003e When you look at the situation in which jazz is emerging in New Orleans, one of the social imperatives is, of course, segregation, which is attempting to separate people according to an absolute distinction between white and black.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40318/file/111983#t=378.36,390.97"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40318/file/111983/transcript/25008/annotation/34","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eRAEBURN:\u003c/strong\u003e The problem and implementation of a policy like this is that the social reality is somewhere in between. That after a century of amalgamation between French, Spanish, Native American, African heritage, Latino -- you really have a very mixed kind of culture here.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40318/file/111983#t=391.9,410.8"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40318/file/111983/transcript/25008/annotation/35","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eRAEBURN:\u003c/strong\u003e And so the multicultural element really is exposure, first of all, to the sort of anomalous character of race in New Orleans. And secondly, in terms of the ethnic groups who are present here, who are, to some extent, building a new culture and a new world environment, and in New Orleans, particularly, with a very distinctive regional cultural component. The culture here is very different from the rest of North America.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40318/file/111983#t=411.52,438.13"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40318/file/111983/transcript/25008/annotation/36","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eLEVIN:\u003c/strong\u003e And the jazz is -- that we're talking about -- is a specific thing to New Orleans?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40318/file/111983#t=439.09,444.34"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40318/file/111983/transcript/25008/annotation/37","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eRAEBURN:\u003c/strong\u003e Jazz is probably the best and most recognizable exponent of that New Orleans culture. But when you start looking at it closely, what you find is virtually any kind of music that exists in New Orleans takes on certain characteristics, certain flavor. Some people have explained it by saying that, whereas music is often considered a luxury in other American cities, in New Orleans, it's a necessity, the same way that water and rice and bread.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40318/file/111983#t=444.76,471.49"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40318/file/111983/transcript/25008/annotation/38","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eRAEBURN:\u003c/strong\u003e Of course, that means prices are low and jazz really begins as a kind of bottom feeders' music. The social elite and the establishment in New Orleans did not look favorably upon jazz. Or editorials attacking it, saying that it should be a point of civic honor to deny that jazz came from New Orleans.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40318/file/111983#t=472.66,490.9"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40318/file/111983/transcript/25008/annotation/39","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eRAEBURN:\u003c/strong\u003e But then the population also responds to these editorials with letters to the editor that are very angry and that defend jazz and basically see it as, a kind of, the ultimate symbol of American creativity.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40318/file/111983#t=491.38,503.32"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40318/file/111983/transcript/25008/annotation/40","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eLEVIN:\u003c/strong\u003e Korn was the first name that you've come across? Chronologically.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40318/file/111983#t=505.89,508.38"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40318/file/111983/transcript/25008/annotation/41","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eRAEBURN:\u003c/strong\u003e The Korn brothers with Laine -- Laine was operating as a band leader from 1889 up until about the World War One period. So we're talking pre World War One. But there are other important names of band leaders and soloists that emerge over the course of the next four decades in New Orleans.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40318/file/111983#t=508.382,528.27"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40318/file/111983/transcript/25008/annotation/42","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eRAEBURN:\u003c/strong\u003e A legitimate musician was a violinist, which tended to be the case with violinists. They were trained classically first, and then their imaginations got all caught up in the development of jazz. There was a guy named Charlie Fishbein.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40318/file/111983#t=529.77,540.06"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40318/file/111983/transcript/25008/annotation/43","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eRAEBURN:\u003c/strong\u003e And Charlie ended up becoming the head of the Fishbein-William Syncopators, which played at dance halls like the Levita in the early 1920s -- ultimately moved to supper clubs in the suburbs, such as the Club Forest in Metairie.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40318/file/111983#t=540.135,559.68"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40318/file/111983/transcript/25008/annotation/44","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eRAEBURN:\u003c/strong\u003e But Charlie is perhaps not so much a soloist as a band leader, but fills that category. This is part of the thing that's interesting about the Jewish component is that it covers the spread. Some are well-known improvisers, some are band leaders, some are section men. You see contributions on all levels from the Jewish community when it comes to jazz in New Orleans.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40318/file/111983#t=560.7,582.09"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40318/file/111983/transcript/25008/annotation/45","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eLEVIN:\u003c/strong\u003e Why don't you talk a little bit about some of the names in particular, any particular stories that you that you can relate.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40318/file/111983#t=585.93,594.95"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40318/file/111983/transcript/25008/annotation/46","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eRAEBURN:\u003c/strong\u003e A very interesting drummer on the New Orleans scene sort of rose to national prominence with Louis Prima -- his name was Godfrey Hirsch. And he began with the Gulf Coast Syncopators as a piano player and a drummer, and ultimately ended up, by the 1930s, with Louis Prima in Hollywood.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40318/file/111983#t=595.46,613.37"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40318/file/111983/transcript/25008/annotation/47","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eRAEBURN:\u003c/strong\u003e And Godfrey was one of the most accomplished drummers and vibes players on the New Orleans scene. And he stayed with Prima for a number of years -- made some important recordings with him.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40318/file/111983#t=614.06,625.73"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40318/file/111983/transcript/25008/annotation/48","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eRAEBURN:\u003c/strong\u003e Another interesting connection is one with Sharkey Bonano. Sharkey was a trumpet player, like Prima, and was a leader of a New Orleans band. But, frequently, you see our Bresch and Sicilian-American musicians recruiting Jewish heritage jazz musicians into their bands. And Sharkey had Charlie Fishbein playing for them for a little while, but the main connection to Sharkey's band is a guy whose name was Meyer Weinberg.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40318/file/111983#t=627.17,654.95"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40318/file/111983/transcript/25008/annotation/49","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eRAEBURN:\u003c/strong\u003e He was a clarinet player and later became known as a band leader, Gene Meyer. But he played with Eddie Condon, with Perry Como, as well as connections with Sharkey Bonano and Santo Pecora, in Hollywood, in late 1930s.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40318/file/111983#t=656.27,671.39"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40318/file/111983/transcript/25008/annotation/50","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eRAEBURN:\u003c/strong\u003e He was a gifted soloist. When Santo Pecora, the trombonist, described him, he said he had a voice all his own. He didn't sound like Goodman, didn't sound like Artie Shaw. He really has something unique going. And that's the highest praise any jazz man can ever find.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40318/file/111983#t=672.59,685.58"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40318/file/111983/transcript/25008/annotation/51","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eLEVIN:\u003c/strong\u003e Over this period of time, about how many people would you say you've uncovered interesting stories about?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40318/file/111983#t=687.61,696.27"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40318/file/111983/transcript/25008/annotation/52","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eRAEBURN:\u003c/strong\u003e A couple of dozen people, I think, really had a, kind of, prominent role in playing jazz here. Frequently, what you find is trained musicians who are working in pit orchestras -- such as the SANGAR and the Orpheum and whatnot -- will dabble with jazz on the side, but they make better money as legitimate musicians. And so if they want to raise a family, that's where they're going to emphasize their efforts.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40318/file/111983#t=697.77,721.35"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40318/file/111983/transcript/25008/annotation/53","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eRAEBURN:\u003c/strong\u003e But the thing about jazz is the freedom, I think, and it attracts people, even if it's just a side line. Someone like Charlie Fishbein, for example, begins a legitimate musician, gets attracted to jazz, never really has that much to offer as a soloist, so he settles for being a bandleader.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40318/file/111983#t=721.77,739.23"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40318/file/111983/transcript/25008/annotation/54","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eRAEBURN:\u003c/strong\u003e But if you look at the people who work for him, it's all the best white jazz talent in New Orleans in the late 20s and early 30s. So one way or another, they found a connection to jazz.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40318/file/111983#t=739.86,749.04"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40318/file/111983/transcript/25008/annotation/55","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eLEVIN:\u003c/strong\u003e When you say \"white jazz musicians\", obviously these -- maybe it isn't so obvious -- all the bands that you're talking about, in which any of these people played in the timeframe we're talking about, were all white bands or?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40318/file/111983#t=749.46,762.57"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40318/file/111983/transcript/25008/annotation/56","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eRAEBURN:\u003c/strong\u003e One of the the problems that New Orleans musicians had to face was segregation, because frequently, your musical interests took you across the color line. If we look at most of the people we're talking about, they are responding to innovators who tend to be black musicians, primarily.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40318/file/111983#t=763.32,779.46"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40318/file/111983/transcript/25008/annotation/57","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eRAEBURN:\u003c/strong\u003e In New Orleans, you have some interesting possibilities of racially mixed band because of Creoles of color who are, someone like Kid Ory, for example. His father is a white Frenchman. His mother is Afro Spanish and Native American.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40318/file/111983#t=780.6,792.93"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40318/file/111983/transcript/25008/annotation/58","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eRAEBURN:\u003c/strong\u003e Classifying someone like that under a system of absolute white and black and segregation is problematical. Ory, to some extent, as well as many Latino musicians had choice; they could live their lives as black or white musicians.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40318/file/111983#t=794.16,805.23"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40318/file/111983/transcript/25008/annotation/59","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eRAEBURN:\u003c/strong\u003e Théogène Baquet was the leader of the first black local of the AF of M in New Orleans. He had one son, Achille Baquet, who worked with Jimmy Durante. He moved to Hollywood and lived as a white man. His other son, George Baquet, worked with Sidney Bechet, and lived in Philadelphia as a black man.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40318/file/111983#t=806.67,821.67"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40318/file/111983/transcript/25008/annotation/60","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eRAEBURN:\u003c/strong\u003e So the ambiguities of race in New Orleans did allow some interesting pairing to go on. But for the most part, this was the exception. Bands were either classified as white or black, and the venues that were available to them were determined accordingly.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40318/file/111983#t=822.27,839.16"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40318/file/111983/transcript/25008/annotation/61","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eLEVIN:\u003c/strong\u003e Now, when you say, \"the venues available\" to play. If it was a white band, in those days, it would be playing at a venue for a white audience; that's easy to assume. Is the reverse also true?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40318/file/111983#t=840.45,860.53"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40318/file/111983/transcript/25008/annotation/62","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eRAEBURN:\u003c/strong\u003e Black bands frequently played for white audiences such as on the riverboats -- the Streckfus Steamers. Out of a seven night spread, six nights would be reserved for playing for white audiences; one afternoon, perhaps for a black audience.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40318/file/111983#t=861.58,875.66"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40318/file/111983/transcript/25008/annotation/63","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eLEVIN:\u003c/strong\u003e On a riverboat?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40318/file/111983#t=876.17,876.41"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40318/file/111983/transcript/25008/annotation/64","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eRAEBURN:\u003c/strong\u003e On a riverboat.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40318/file/111983#t=876.92,877.19"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40318/file/111983/transcript/25008/annotation/65","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eLEVIN:\u003c/strong\u003e But there were black audiences?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40318/file/111983#t=877.46,878.51"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40318/file/111983/transcript/25008/annotation/66","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eRAEBURN:\u003c/strong\u003e They were given sort of the time off. When they couldn't get regular white patrons, would be reserved for black. But usually it was like six days to one.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40318/file/111983#t=880.13,888.95"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40318/file/111983/transcript/25008/annotation/67","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eRAEBURN:\u003c/strong\u003e Now, it is said by Vernon Streckfus, one of the Streckfus Brothers, that the first time Louis Armstrong ever played for a white audience was on one of the Streckfus steamers on the Sydney. And he also claims that the first time Louis Armstrong ever took a solo was on one of these steamers playing for a white audience. But there was some culture shock for someone like Louis Armstrong trying to negotiate two different worlds.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40318/file/111983#t=890.87,913.94"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40318/file/111983/transcript/25008/annotation/68","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eRAEBURN:\u003c/strong\u003e When Streckfus went to audition Armstrong, he actually had to get a pass to go into a black neighborhood to hear what he sounded like. So the incidence of racism is something that is oppressive.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40318/file/111983#t=915.23,929.21"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40318/file/111983/transcript/25008/annotation/69","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eRAEBURN:\u003c/strong\u003e But jazz provided a way to sometimes, sort of, skirt the issue and get around it. And whereas segregation is trying to separate people, jazz is very definitely bringing people of various ethnic backgrounds together.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40318/file/111983#t=930.41,942.23"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40318/file/111983/transcript/25008/annotation/70","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eLEVIN:\u003c/strong\u003e Who would he have to get a pass from?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40318/file/111983#t=943.366,944.48"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40318/file/111983/transcript/25008/annotation/71","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eRAEBURN:\u003c/strong\u003e I believe it was the mayor.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40318/file/111983#t=945.59,946.4"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40318/file/111983/transcript/25008/annotation/72","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eLEVIN:\u003c/strong\u003e You mean, to go into the neighborhood?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40318/file/111983#t=946.97,948.8"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40318/file/111983/transcript/25008/annotation/73","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eRAEBURN:\u003c/strong\u003e Yeah. The mayor or the chief of police. He was going to hear him in Economy Hall, which was in Tremé. Now, the irony is that Tremé was actually, demographically, a racially mixed neighborhood. There were Creoles of color, Blacks, and Sicilian heritage residents in Tremé. And this is typical of New Orleans demographics. White and black families could live next door to each other. They just couldn't ride the streetcar together.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40318/file/111983#t=949.28,975.08"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40318/file/111983/transcript/25008/annotation/74","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eRAEBURN:\u003c/strong\u003e There's another individual that I think deserves special mention. He was a saxophone player, and his name was Dave Winstein. He grew up in the French Quarter. And he played with the El Straticos Band with Leon Prima, who was Louis Prima's brother. But he went on to become the head of the local musicians union, the American Federation of Musicians Local 174, for several decades.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40318/file/111983#t=975.86,1001.9"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40318/file/111983/transcript/25008/annotation/75","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eRAEBURN:\u003c/strong\u003e So his leadership contributions with the El Straticos, various other bands, The Dawnbusters -- which was a popular band on WWL radio. Dave Winstein went beyond just musical contributions and became an organizer and an administrator of the musicians union here. And many people remember him fondly for accomplishing a lot in both spheres.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40318/file/111983#t=1002.83,1026.92"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40318/file/111983/transcript/25008/annotation/76","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eLEVIN:\u003c/strong\u003e Was there anything else that we should talk about in this relatively narrow framework of...","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40318/file/111983#t=1030.67,1039.05"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40318/file/111983/transcript/25008/annotation/77","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eRAEBURN:\u003c/strong\u003e John? Oh, well, there's another interesting anecdote. The first New Orleans band to make a recording -- which was in fact the first jazz recording -- was the original Dixieland jazz band, in 1917, in New York City. And that recording revolutionized American musical sensibilities. It really opened the door to jazz and improvised music.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40318/file/111983#t=1039.41,1062.48"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40318/file/111983/transcript/25008/annotation/78","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eRAEBURN:\u003c/strong\u003e The trombone player with that band was Edwin Edwards. And during World War One, this band actually relocated to London for a time. But Edwards decided he should do his military obligation. And when he got out of there, he formed a small band with a guy named Mike Kaplan and with Achille Baquet.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40318/file/111983#t=1063.41,1085.7"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40318/file/111983/transcript/25008/annotation/79","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eRAEBURN:\u003c/strong\u003e So actually, this is an example -- Baquet being the Creole of color that I mentioned previously -- this is an example of a racially mixed band with a Jewish jazzman, Edwards, of course, would be Welsh background and then French Creole.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40318/file/111983#t=1087.32,1099.53"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40318/file/111983/transcript/25008/annotation/80","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eRAEBURN:\u003c/strong\u003e The interesting thing is that even though he had been a member of the first band to record, which was like the first hit sensation in jazz history in New York City, the band that he remembered most favorably was the one with my Mike Kaplan and Achille Baquet. That was his favorite jazz band.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40318/file/111983#t=1101.06,1116.18"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40318/file/111983/transcript/25008/annotation/81","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eLEVIN:\u003c/strong\u003e Now, if we move away from individual people's biography or their role in this, there's the larger question which we're not going to even answer -- we can't answer, and I don't know that there's any answer to it. But it's just the question that always will be asked: was there any musical influence or cross-fertilization?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40318/file/111983#t=1117.33,1140.96"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40318/file/111983/transcript/25008/annotation/82","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eLEVIN:\u003c/strong\u003e In other words, from jazz -- and in our case, this brand of jazz, or brands -- any influence on other aspects of purely Jewish musical directions, for example, synagogue music or anything?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40318/file/111983#t=1144.55,1161.57"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40318/file/111983/transcript/25008/annotation/83","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eLEVIN:\u003c/strong\u003e Now of course, I mean, in the 60s -- I don't think earlier, let's say in the 60s, early 60s -- there were certain synagogue composers who simply decided, artificially -- you know because they weren't jazzmen -- to compose a synagogue service in the jazz idiom, as subsequently it's happened.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40318/file/111983#t=1161.78,1181.22"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40318/file/111983/transcript/25008/annotation/84","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eLEVIN:\u003c/strong\u003e It's happened in the Roman Catholic Church, it's happened in many places. But I mean, Dave Brubeck, then, later on got into the act. But there were other, who were more purely parochial synagogue composers.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40318/file/111983#t=1181.52,1190.815"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40318/file/111983/transcript/25008/annotation/85","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eLEVIN:\u003c/strong\u003e You usually tend to think, for example, of the first -- just chronologically -- the first jazz service written and published and performed -- or service with some jazz idiom -- obviously, it's very mixed -- is by somebody called Charles Davidson, who's a cantor.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40318/file/111983#t=1190.824,1209.24"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40318/file/111983/transcript/25008/annotation/86","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eLEVIN:\u003c/strong\u003e And I mean, he's not a jazz musician or anything of the sort. And yet it has a certain flavor and it's designed to do that. And it needs a little jazz-type ensemble in order to be performed, whether it's in the synagogue or outside of the synagogue.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40318/file/111983#t=1209.72,1220.375"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40318/file/111983/transcript/25008/annotation/87","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eLEVIN:\u003c/strong\u003e Now, the question is, does any -- you know, I mean, there's no answer -- but has anyone given thought? Have you given thought? Is there anything to research here -- that I think is a bigger question -- as to any kind of more natural influence in the music of the synagogue?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40318/file/111983#t=1221.27,1234.17"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40318/file/111983/transcript/25008/annotation/88","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eRAEBURN:\u003c/strong\u003e Well, one wonders what the ramifications of the emergence of jazz in New Orleans would be for religious observance and music in New Orleans. I don't think anyone's really looked at this. Now, there tend to be a rather almost unbridgeable dividing line between what was considered sacred and secular. And jazz definitely fell into the secular category.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40318/file/111983#t=1235.55,1259.01"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40318/file/111983/transcript/25008/annotation/89","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eRAEBURN:\u003c/strong\u003e However, one of the things that scholars are very interested in, with early jazz, is the spiritual component. The fact that jazz was used for brass band funerals. That it was used, in many ways, to celebrate existence in the streets as well as in dance halls or ballrooms -- in St. Charles Avenue mansions once debutants became interested in jazz.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40318/file/111983#t=1260.0,1283.1"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40318/file/111983/transcript/25008/annotation/90","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eRAEBURN:\u003c/strong\u003e And so the jazz sensibility has a tendency to ramify throughout the period of World War One and the 20s. Thus, F. Scott Fitzgerald calling it the Jazz Age. I think this is not just a metaphor. The fact is that jazz somehow fit with the times.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40318/file/111983#t=1284.27,1301.73"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40318/file/111983/transcript/25008/annotation/91","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eRAEBURN:\u003c/strong\u003e Now, what you often find, is that the people who attacked jazz focused on two ethnic components, and that was African heritage and Jewish. That in many cases they tried to write it off as, somehow, a debasing of the American cultural mission by these two ethnic groups.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40318/file/111983#t=1302.72,1320.45"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40318/file/111983/transcript/25008/annotation/92","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eRAEBURN:\u003c/strong\u003e And so, surprisingly, there's a negativity, which is one of the first assignments of a Jewish connection to jazz. Now, the other irony is, on the far left, these were the same two components which gave jazz its validity. And so you have an ironic, sort of, inversion of values between the far right and the far left, but they both involve African-Americans and people of Jewish heritage.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40318/file/111983#t=1321.56,1347.15"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40318/file/111983/transcript/25008/annotation/93","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eLEVIN:\u003c/strong\u003e I never heard the Jewish aspect you brought up, so if you could elaborate a little.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40318/file/111983#t=1347.72,1353.87"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40318/file/111983/transcript/25008/annotation/94","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eRAEBURN:\u003c/strong\u003e Well, there were arbiters of American culture, such as Daniel Gregory Mason at Columbia University in the 1920s, who basically ascribed the origins of jazz to Black and Jewish commercialism and hedonism, a kind of, what he called, a \"Jewish nexus.\"","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40318/file/111983#t=1354.03,1371.51"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40318/file/111983/transcript/25008/annotation/95","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eRAEBURN:\u003c/strong\u003e And the first thing to be said about that is, Daniel Gregory Mason did not know very much about jazz history. He didn't realize the New Orleans component, the original distinctiveness of New Orleans culture, nor did, of course, he think in multicultural terms. And so consequently, he was wrong.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40318/file/111983#t=1372.86,1393.05"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40318/file/111983/transcript/25008/annotation/96","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eRAEBURN:\u003c/strong\u003e But, quite often, what they're doing is they're looking at someone like Irving Berlin, for example, as a composer, and many of his songs are covered by jazz artists. And so that's the kind of linkage that they're concentrating on. It's very misguided.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40318/file/111983#t=1394.01,1407.12"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40318/file/111983/transcript/25008/annotation/97","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eLEVIN:\u003c/strong\u003e In other words, it's less direct, in a way.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40318/file/111983#t=1408.41,1410.24"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40318/file/111983/transcript/25008/annotation/98","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eRAEBURN:\u003c/strong\u003e Yeah.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40318/file/111983#t=1410.78,1410.78"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40318/file/111983/transcript/25008/annotation/99","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eLEVIN:\u003c/strong\u003e They're calling it jazz. I mean, you mentioned Irving Berlin. But what they're really meaning is the wider influence, or even commercially, more than musically.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40318/file/111983#t=1410.866,1419.63"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40318/file/111983/transcript/25008/annotation/100","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eRAEBURN:\u003c/strong\u003e Well, that's it. They're threatened by popular music in general.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40318/file/111983#t=1420.02,1422.06"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40318/file/111983/transcript/25008/annotation/101","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eLEVIN:\u003c/strong\u003e Right.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40318/file/111983#t=1423.5,1423.5"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40318/file/111983/transcript/25008/annotation/102","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eRAEBURN:\u003c/strong\u003e Anything that they couldn't constrain and control became a threat. And so consequently, his idea of the proper American music is some sort of \"city beautiful\" version of American musical composition, which is essentially Eurocentric and classically oriented.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40318/file/111983#t=1423.59,1438.62"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40318/file/111983/transcript/25008/annotation/103","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eRAEBURN:\u003c/strong\u003e But of course, all the interesting things that are happening in American music at the turn of the century are percolating up from the bottom and are part of a wider sexual revolution and moral revolution, which interprets jazz dancing, going along with free expression of the libido, à la Freud, as a sign of mental health.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40318/file/111983#t=1439.49,1457.76"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40318/file/111983/transcript/25008/annotation/104","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eRAEBURN:\u003c/strong\u003e And so ultimately, it's a younger generation. I mean, jazz is driven by young people within any of the ethnic groups that we've talked about. Older people, who grew up in the 19th century, tended to reject jazz as a distortion of everything they liked. You couldn't do a waltz effectively to jazz or the Schottische of the Mazurka or the Quadrille. These were the dances of the older generation coming out of Victorian culture.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40318/file/111983#t=1458.48,1481.7"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40318/file/111983/transcript/25008/annotation/105","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eRAEBURN:\u003c/strong\u003e But a new generation of young people -- which included Jews and people of African-American heritage and Latinos and Irish and Italian -- they wanted exciting new dance music. And they weren't doing waltzes and quadrilles. They were doing slow drag's and shaggs and belly rubs.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40318/file/111983#t=1482.39,1497.42"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40318/file/111983/transcript/25008/annotation/106","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eLEVIN:\u003c/strong\u003e Is there anything else we should cover in this? Or I think I think we have a good...","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40318/file/111983#t=1498.47,1501.936"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40318/file/111983/transcript/25008/annotation/107","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eRAEBURN:\u003c/strong\u003e Definitely there's more to be learned about this...","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40318/file/111983#t=1502.31,1503.357"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40318/file/111983/transcript/25008/annotation/108","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eLEVIN:\u003c/strong\u003e Oh, yeah, but I think on this visit where it's preliminary...","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40318/file/111983#t=1503.64,1506.33"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40318/file/111983/transcript/25008/annotation/109","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eRAEBURN:\u003c/strong\u003e Yeah.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40318/file/111983#t=1507.38,1507.38"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40318/file/111983/transcript/25008/annotation/110","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eLEVIN:\u003c/strong\u003e ...I think we've got a lot packed in.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40318/file/111983#t=1507.396,1508.28"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40318/file/111983/transcript/25008/annotation/111","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eRAEBURN:\u003c/strong\u003e Great.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40318/file/111983#t=1508.55,1508.55"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40318/file/111983/transcript/25008/annotation/112","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eLEVIN:\u003c/strong\u003e Thanks very much.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40318/file/111983#t=1508.91,1509.33"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40318/file/111983/transcript/25008/annotation/113","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eRAEBURN:\u003c/strong\u003e My pleasure.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40318/file/111983#t=1509.839,1510.129"}]}]}]}