{"@context":"http://iiif.io/api/presentation/3/context.json","id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/iiif/3x83j39h2h/manifest","type":"Manifest","label":{"en":["Baron, John"]},"logo":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/organizations/logo_images/000/000/115/original/Boxed_Milken_Center_logo.png?1628711583","metadata":[{"label":{"en":["Preferred Citation"]},"value":{"en":["\u003cp\u003eBaron, John. 1999. Interview by Neil Levin. Milken Archive Oral History Project. 23 April.\u003c/p\u003e"]}},{"label":{"en":["Publisher"]},"value":{"en":["Milken Family Foundation"]}},{"label":{"en":["Rights Statement"]},"value":{"en":["\u003cp\u003e© Milken Family Foundation. Unauthorized use is prohibited. For inquiries, please contact info@milkenarchive.org.\u003c/p\u003e"]}},{"label":{"en":["Agent"]},"value":{"en":["Levin, Neil (Interviewer)","Baron, John (Musicologist)"]}},{"label":{"en":["Date"]},"value":{"en":["1999-04-23"]}},{"label":{"en":["Coverage"]},"value":{"en":["New Orleans, LA (Place of Recording)"]}},{"label":{"en":["Language"]},"value":{"en":["English (Primary)"]}},{"label":{"en":["Description"]},"value":{"en":["\u003cp\u003eOral history interview with musicologist John Baron focusing important figures in Jewish music in New Orleans around the early twentieth century, including Frederick Kitziger and Henry Jacobs. Discussion of Kitziger, a non-Jewish musician, is oriented toward his extensive catalog of liturgical music and its enduring legacy among Southern Reform congregations. From here, Baron details the life of Henry Jacobs, who took over the role of music director at Temple Sinai in the late 1930s and was part of the American Guild of Organists. Additional discussion concerns the Karnofskys, an immigrant Jewish family for whom Louis Armstrong worked, and multiple Jewish conductors of the New Orleans Symphony who programmed Jewish music. \u003c/p\u003e"]}},{"label":{"en":["Format"]},"value":{"en":["Beta SP"]}},{"label":{"en":["Subject"]},"value":{"en":["New Orleans (La.)--History (Topical Term)","Jazz--Louisiana--New Orleans--History and criticism (Topical Term)","Reform Judaism--United States (Topical Term)","Temple Sinai (New Orleans, La.) (Person or Corporate Body)","American Guild of Organists (Person or Corporate Body)","Armstrong, Louis, 1901-1971 (Person or Corporate Body)"]}},{"label":{"en":["Keyword"]},"value":{"en":["American Guild of Organists, choral music, Debbie Friedman (1951-2011), Ernest Bloch (1880-1959), Frederick Kitziger (1844-1903), German, Hebrew, Henry Jacobs (1907-1964), Henry S. Jacobs Camp, Herman Berlinski (1910-2001), Leipzig Conservatory (Germany), Louis Armstrong (1901-1971), Louis Lewandowski (1821-1884), Max Helfman (1901-1963), Max Janowski (1912-1991), New Orleans—LA, New Orleans Symphony, opera, organ, Reform Judaism, Salomon Sulzer (1804-1890), Temple Sinai (New Orleans), Touro Synagogue (New Orleans), Tulane University, Werner Torkanowsky (1926-1992)"]}}],"summary":{"en":["\u003cp\u003eOral history interview with musicologist John Baron focusing important figures in Jewish music in New Orleans around the early twentieth century, including Frederick Kitziger and Henry Jacobs. Discussion of Kitziger, a non-Jewish musician, is oriented toward his extensive catalog of liturgical music and its enduring legacy among Southern Reform congregations. From here, Baron details the life of Henry Jacobs, who took over the role of music director at Temple Sinai in the late 1930s and was part of the American Guild of Organists. Additional discussion concerns the Karnofskys, an immigrant Jewish family for whom Louis Armstrong worked, and multiple Jewish conductors of the New Orleans Symphony who programmed Jewish music.\u0026nbsp;\u003c/p\u003e"]},"requiredStatement":{"label":{"en":["Attribution"]},"value":{"en":["\u003cp\u003e\u0026copy; Milken Family Foundation. Unauthorized use is prohibited. For inquiries, please contact info@milkenarchive.org.\u003c/p\u003e"]}},"provider":[{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/aboutus","type":"Agent","label":{"en":["Lowell Milken Center for Music of American Jewish Experience"]},"homepage":[{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/","type":"Text","label":{"en":["Lowell Milken Center for Music of American Jewish Experience"]},"format":"text/html"}],"logo":[{"id":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/organizations/logo_images/000/000/115/original/Boxed_Milken_Center_logo.png?1628711583","type":"Image"}]}],"thumbnail":[{"id":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/collection_resource_files/thumbnails/000/110/769/small/John-Baron.jpg?1618940790","type":"Image","format":"image/jpeg"}],"items":[{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39393/file/110769","type":"Canvas","label":{"en":["Media File 1 of 1 - L1901_MA_Oral_History_Baron_2017_Logo.mp4"]},"duration":2021.12,"width":640,"height":360,"thumbnail":[{"id":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/collection_resource_files/thumbnails/000/110/769/small/John-Baron.jpg?1618940790","type":"Image","format":"image/jpeg"}],"items":[{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39393/file/110769/content/1","type":"AnnotationPage","items":[{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39393/file/110769/content/1/annotation/1","type":"Annotation","motivation":"painting","body":{"id":"https://aviary-p-milken.s3.wasabisys.com/collection_resource_files/resource_files/000/110/769/original/L1901_MA_Oral_History_Baron_2017_Logo.mp4?1616072141","type":"Video","format":"video/mp4","duration":2021.12,"width":640,"height":360},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39393/file/110769","metadata":[]}]}],"annotations":[{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39393/file/110769/transcript/24193","type":"AnnotationPage","label":{"en":["Edited Transcript [Transcript]"]},"items":[{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39393/file/110769/transcript/24193/annotation/1","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eLEVIN:\u003c/strong\u003e Okay.  We’re going to talk about the Kitziger Phenomenon, let’s call it.  So, I think we’ll just begin with a little historical background.  Forget that the article exists.  That article is for a certain readership.  But…","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39393/file/110769#t=15.0,32.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39393/file/110769/transcript/24193/annotation/2","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eBARON:\u003c/strong\u003e Okay.  Well, there existed here in New Orleans, in the 1880s up ‘til 1903, when he died, a Christian musician by the name of Frederick Kitziger.  And he worked, during those years, at Touro Synagogue as music director and composer. And the reason he was hired, I think, was because he was from Germany, born in the 1840s.  And the rabbi at that time at Touro Synagogue, Rabbi Leucht, was also from Germany, born in the 1840s.  So, they probably felt very comfortable with each other.  And if he wasn’t Jewish, well, then, most musicians in American synagogues — Reform synagogues — of that time weren’t Jewish, anyway. And during that time, Kitziger wrote more synagogue music, I believe, than any other composer, any other Jewish composer in — or whatever religion — in North America at that time.  He published four complete cycles of the year.  Plus all sorts of incidental for individual psalms and whatever.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39393/file/110769#t=32.0,86.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39393/file/110769/transcript/24193/annotation/3","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"LEVIN:  Now what are the rough timeframe, dates of publications?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eBARON:  They would be in the middle to later 1880s up ‘til about 1900.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  The first being in the early 1880s.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eBARON:  Right.  Yes.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Published here?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eBARON:  Published by himself, basically.  They were engraved by himself.  You can see it’s, they’re hand copies.  But they were printed and reproduced.  And he advertises in there that they’re available. They were being used by synagogues in 24 states, in Canada, and in England.  So it had wide circulation.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39393/file/110769#t=86.0,118.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39393/file/110769/transcript/24193/annotation/4","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"LEVIN:  Now, it did.  You’ve determined that it did actually have…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eBARON:  Apparently it had quite…. And his, one of his compositions seems to be so well-known that every cantor in America — and perhaps around the world — jokes about it.  And that is his setting of the psalm, What is Man that Thou Art Mindful of Him? for Yom Kippur.  Set it in English to the Moonlight Sonata of Beethoven.  And that seems to have made every cantor joke book in, in the, in the country.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39393/file/110769#t=118.0,148.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39393/file/110769/transcript/24193/annotation/5","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"LEVIN:  Is that the only case of the Moonlight Sonata, or is there another one that Schlesinger…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eBARON:  No.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Or is this the one?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eBARON:  That’s the one.  And there are others.  There’s, it may have been Schlesinger who set an aria by Donizetti.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Yeah.  That’s also, yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eBARON:  That’s, that’s, yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  But the Moonlight Sonata…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eBARON:  That’s, that’s Kitziger. From, uh…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN: That’s Kitziger only.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eBARON:  As far as I know, the only one.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39393/file/110769#t=148.0,168.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39393/file/110769/transcript/24193/annotation/6","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"LEVIN:  And do you know if that is actually done anymore anywhere in the United States?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eBARON:  As far as I know, it is not.  Except when I revive it and have people play it for a…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  But that’s a historical kind of situation.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003e  BARON:  Right.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  See, I’m not sure it’s been pinned down.  I hear reports that in, somewhere in either Alabama or Texas or somewhere, that there are some old classic Reform temples that are still doing that.  But I have to check that.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39393/file/110769#t=168.0,195.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39393/file/110769/transcript/24193/annotation/7","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eBARON:\u003c/strong\u003e I think that if you were here 30 years ago, that would have been the case.  I checked with the synagogues here in town — Reform synagogues — and I also checked with several people.  And we had a conclave here a week-and-a-half ago, when there Jews in from Mississippi to Arkansas, Tennessee and, and Louisiana — all over.  Little towns, big towns; little synagogues, big synagogues; some with rabbis, some with no rabbis.  Whatever information I could get is that they are now all using Debbie Friedman.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39393/file/110769#t=195.0,223.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39393/file/110769/transcript/24193/annotation/8","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"LEVIN:  Even in the classic Reform?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eBARON:  Even in the classic Reform.  Some of them still have the Sulzer and, and some of that, but not anymore Kitziger.  That they’re, they’re much more conscious now of what they’re choosing.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN: Very recent, yeah, very….  But these are the kind of things that we’re going to pin down once and for all by the time of this conference.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eBARON:  Right.  When you get to Hattiesburg, there, you’re dealing with a small Jewish community.  You could find out, perhaps, in Hattiesburg, what they’re doing.  I don’t know.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39393/file/110769#t=223.0,244.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39393/file/110769/transcript/24193/annotation/9","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"LEVIN:  Yeah, you’re right.  When I talk to somebody said, well, somebody who is relatively young, and says, “That’s what I grew up with.  It’s not dead.”  But it still could be 30 years ago.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eBARON:  Right.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Or 25 years ago.  But that’s the kind of thing I’m interested to pin down about, well, it’s only the Deep South.  I mean, in general.  I mean, for example, I find at Temple Emanu-El in New York, there’s some dinosaurs there, musically, that I can, I can find it, I’m amazed that it still exists.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39393/file/110769#t=244.0,273.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39393/file/110769/transcript/24193/annotation/10","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eBARON:\u003c/strong\u003e You, you spoke with Rabbi Blackman.  And when he was rabbi at Temple Sinai, he loved the Union Hymnal and did many of the — I call Onward, Christian Soldier-type hymns from, from that hymnal.  And that was common, in his day. Now, and he’s been retired for about ten years.  And since that time, I don’t hear any of that kind of music.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39393/file/110769#t=273.0,294.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39393/file/110769/transcript/24193/annotation/11","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"LEVIN:  No, that’s right.  We talked about that yesterday, too.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eBARON:  That’s right.  But…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  But that’s New Orleans.  But I’m wondering if that’s the case in even more, you know, less cosmopolitan…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eBARON:  Yeah.  Well…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN: …type of areas.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eBARON: …I talked to, what they did in Jackson, Mississippi.  And it, it’s like heavily, now, Debbie Friedman. That, that’s what the kids want.  They go get it at their camps.  And Klepper and all the rest.  That’s, that’s the music they’re, they’re used to.  Or they said Sulzer.  And I, you know, the, the art compositions that were written in the ‘40s, say, to the ‘60s…","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39393/file/110769#t=294.0,326.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39393/file/110769/transcript/24193/annotation/12","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"LEVIN:  Yeah, but there isn’t…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eBARON: …that’s, that’s gone.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN: …yeah.  The trouble with Sulzer, that’s just a couple of things.  Because there isn’t much…BARON:  The Sh’ma and a few other things.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Yeah.  There isn’t much Sulzer that can be done in a classic Reform service.  Because 90 percent of Sulzer’s and Lewandowski’s music is from a…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eBARON:  Right.  From a…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN: …traditional, I mean, prayer book and which…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eBARON:  But it’s, it’s…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN: …a few little things — the responses, basically.  But none of the big pieces can be…","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39393/file/110769#t=326.0,347.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39393/file/110769/transcript/24193/annotation/13","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"BARON:  No, see, it’s the adaptation, even, even Americanization of some of Sulzer and Lewandowski, as in the Union Hymnal.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Yeah, yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eBARON:  If I can do an aside about the Union Hymnal. One of the editors of the Union Hymnal was my uncle, Jacob Singer.  And I remember it when I was a child, listening to him, and the problems he had. He grew up, his father was a cantor from, from Latvia.  He knew the nusaḥ and, you know, that was his background.  And he became a Reform rabbi in the early years of this century, and had to fight for Hebrew to be included in the service and for any signs of Jewish music. He regarded the Union Hymnal as the first major triumph that he had, in 1930.  Maybe it was ’36, or whenever it came out.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39393/file/110769#t=347.0,387.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39393/file/110769/transcript/24193/annotation/14","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"LEVIN:  Well, that’s not the first Union Hymnal.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eBARON:  There was an earlier.  But the one that came out in the ‘30s, because that one introduced, it actually had Hebrew text in there.  And they were able to bring some of the cantillation, some of the, the, the chants back.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  The early one was in the 1890s, already, I think.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eBARON:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  And that one, about the only Hebrew it had was the, was Sh’ma Yisroel.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eBARON:  Right, right.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  And Kodesh…","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39393/file/110769#t=387.0,407.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39393/file/110769/transcript/24193/annotation/15","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"BARON:  So, it was, it was a, a, and it was quite a fight to get through, in those days.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Kitziger lived all his life in New Orleans?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eBARON:  No.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  After he came here from…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eBARON:  Well, he came here from Germany.  He came from a very poor family.  And he went to study at the Leipzig Conservatory.  Because his instrument was either trumpet or trombone — we’re not quite sure.  It was a brass instrument.  And while he was a student at Leipzig, he made a, a terrible mistake — he fell in love.  I guess it wasn’t a mistake.  He fell in love with a young lady and he proposed to her.  And the father stepped in and said the inevitable question — “How are you going to support her?”  Poor to start with, and going to be a musician?  Hah, hah, hah.  So… uh, he had to figure a way of making money quickly. So he did what I guess many people did in the 19th century — he sailed for New Orleans right away, figuring America was made of gold.  And it worked for him. He came here in 1866, right after with the Civil War.  With his horn.  Went into the streets of New Orleans, paraded on the streets of New Orleans, blowing his horn. And after one year, he had enough money saved to buy a farm in Crowley, Louisiana, to go back to Germany and claim his bride, which now the father-in-law was willing to let him do because he had money.  And he came back here and started to raise a family and have a farm. The problem was that he was no farmer.  And after one year, he went bankrupt, having lost everything.  Not a single seed came above the ground. So, he came back to New Orleans and did what he knew best, which was to be on the streets, blowing his horn.  And he was able to make a living, raise a family.Gradually working up, he played in the, in one of the opera orchestras here.  And also took jobs occasionally playing on Sundays in, in church services, playing the organ.  He had enough skill at the keyboard, apparently. He played at least once at St. Louis Cathedral, and he played at several of the Episcopal churches here in town.  That’s what also leads us to some confusion.  There is no way of pinning him down as either Catholic or Protestant.  The only thing we know was that he wasn’t Jewish.  And then, it’s about 1880.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39393/file/110769#t=407.0,522.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39393/file/110769/transcript/24193/annotation/16","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"LEVIN:  Where did he come from in Germany?  What, what…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eBARON:  Somewhere in the middle of the country.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Like Sulzer. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eBARON:  Actually, he came from what was, used to be East Germany.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  No, but I mean, in the North-South-wise, in terms of…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eBARON:  Middle, middle.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN: …Catholic versus other…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eBARON:  No, that, that’s not quite true.  There were Catholics in North Germany, and…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Yeah, of course.  But I mean…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eBARON: …there, and Protestants up….\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN: …the odds…","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39393/file/110769#t=522.0,540.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39393/file/110769/transcript/24193/annotation/17","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eBARON:\u003c/strong\u003e But yeah.  He was in the middle of Germany, not far from Leipzig. So, it’s –Yeah.  And his family doesn’t know.  His descendants don’t know. He has a lot of descendants here.  One of whom, a grand, a grandson — a great-grandson — married a Jewish girl.  And she’s been after me ever since to try to find some Jewish blood in Kitziger.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39393/file/110769#t=540.0,560.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39393/file/110769/transcript/24193/annotation/18","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"LEVIN:  Well, probably not, but no.  I mean, I’m just thinking — because we’re going to, in Germany, to baptismal records?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eBARON:  I went after those.  We, we corresponded, and were not able to find anything.  And so apparently, he was sufficiently poor that he may not even have had records kept.  Whatever. But he’s, he had ample skills to be able to compose.  He’s not a great composer, but he provided functional music at that time for Reform synagogues in America.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39393/file/110769#t=560.0,591.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39393/file/110769/transcript/24193/annotation/19","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"LEVIN:  Now, the important question, for which we may know the answer, but, is why?  In other words, why did he do it?  Why did he, purely just a need for self-expression?  Or was it a…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eBARON:  No.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN: …function of something that was necessary, was needed?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39393/file/110769#t=591.0,612.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39393/file/110769/transcript/24193/annotation/20","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eBARON:\u003c/strong\u003e It was needed in the congregation.  There was a number of things. First of all, the, until the 1890s, there was no standardized prayer book in the Reform movement.  Some prayer books were in German, some in English, some in both English and German.  A few even had Hebrew. And um, we find, in his compositions, many times, there will be three texts — one in English, one in German, and one in Hebrew.  And since there was this fluidity, fluidity of text, there had to be different compositions written to satisfy it. It was written for a four-voice chorus, sometimes with a soloist.  Which was what many of these synagogues hired, they hired four Christian singers to come in, two soprano uh, two females, two bass’, to have a regular soprano, alto, tenor, bass. Choir.  And uh, he had to provide the music, there was no repertoire.  And he simply brought in his Christian style of music, and since he set the text, he probably had some help in the English, but no doubt had the rabbi help him with the Hebrew setting.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39393/file/110769#t=612.0,669.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39393/file/110769/transcript/24193/annotation/21","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"LEVIN:  There again uh, you say ‘his Christian style of music.’ I’ve seen some, and uh - \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eBARON: Protestant.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  It’s clearly more Protestant than…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eBARON:  Protestant chorale type, Lutheran chorale type stuff…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  I don’t know if that tells us anything about his own background.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39393/file/110769#t=669.0,685.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39393/file/110769/transcript/24193/annotation/22","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eBARON:\u003c/strong\u003e No, because I think you had some Catholics doing that as, as well.  Um, he may have been nothing. You know, born a Christian, but not practicing anything. He’s buried in the cemetery where he –  It’s a nondenominational cemetery, but I don’t think there are any Jews in the cemetery.  His descendants, some of them are Protestant and some are Catholic, which is further reason why we suspect there might have been a mixture of… or he wasn’t committed to one or the other.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39393/file/110769#t=685.0,712.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39393/file/110769/transcript/24193/annotation/23","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"LEVIN:  What, what year did he die?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eBARON: 1903.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN: Now, during that timeframe, his music was done in more than his synagogue in New Orleans?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eBARON:  Well, at that time, there were three Reform synagogues.  There still are, in New Orleans.  And the only record I have is him having been done in the Touro Synagogue, which is where he was based. He lists, though — and I, I, I’m sorry I don’t have the copy here of his music.  But there is, on the back page of, of some of his music, that it lists all the synagogues where his music is performed.  So, one can get an idea.  And it’s, it’s, I count it at 24 states.  And Canada and England.  So there…","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39393/file/110769#t=712.0,750.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39393/file/110769/transcript/24193/annotation/24","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"LEVIN:  Well, of course…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eBARON: …well, it did spread.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN: …the Moonlight Sonata thing was, that got into even some other hymnals, didn’t it?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eBARON:  Right.  Well, it’s like the Union Hymnal still has Beethoven’s Ninth, the Ode to Joy.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Yeah, yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eBARON:  You know, things like that.  And so it’s, those things, certainly.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  That one, that one we know is, but some of the other things would be interesting, interesting to see….  Are there any other particular compositions or settings, shall we say…","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39393/file/110769#t=750.0,775.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39393/file/110769/transcript/24193/annotation/25","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"BARON:  By Kitziger?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN: …that stand out as interesting?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eBARON:  Well, actually, I have not had a chance to perform any of these.  It would be nice to have a number of them performed.  The only one I have performed was the, the Moonlight Sonata one.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  There’s no recordings?  Not even, you’ve never, nobody…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eBARON: No.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN: …just got together for…","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39393/file/110769#t=775.0,792.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39393/file/110769/transcript/24193/annotation/26","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"BARON:  No. Not that I know of. So that would be nice to do, to listen to his music and see, just playing it on the piano, there’s nothing striking in the way of harmony, it’s as simple as you can imagine: one five, one five, sort of things, and there’s no evidence of anything that you could call Jewish in the music. So, other than the occasional use of Hebrew, or that the text were based on, on some Hebrew. Translated.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39393/file/110769#t=792.0,817.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39393/file/110769/transcript/24193/annotation/27","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"LEVIN: Yeah, but that doesn’t necessarily, yeah, I mean.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eBARON: But it’s, it’s claimed as a Jewish music, is the fact that it was performed in synagogues. And therefore, served as Jewish music.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN: No, no question. That’s, that’s very, very much music of Judaic - of Jewish experience, it’s…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eBARON:  It’s as legitimately Jewish as Debbie Friedman.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39393/file/110769#t=817.0,837.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39393/file/110769/transcript/24193/annotation/28","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"LEVIN: Probably more so. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eBARON: Yeah, I get it too.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN: Um, in the sense that one is aping, if… which has been throughout history anyway, at least a religious style. Aping…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eBARON: Aping and Pete Seeger and the rest.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39393/file/110769#t=837.0,856.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39393/file/110769/transcript/24193/annotation/29","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"LEVIN: Which is nice too, but Pete Seeger does it better, but that’s another story. Um, have you done any research on this since the…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eBARON:  Not really.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN: …article?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eBARON:  No, I have not.  And so, it’s, it is an area that could be — and but I think what, what is more than research at this point — I think we know enough about him and his life to get along.  What, what we really need to do is hear some of the music.  That would be….  And I don’t know where to turn, because I don’t think anybody is really interested, except…","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39393/file/110769#t=856.0,882.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39393/file/110769/transcript/24193/annotation/30","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"LEVIN:  Well, we are.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eBARON: …your, your project.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  And we should probably select a few things and record them.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eBARON:  It would be very nice.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  I don’t know if you have an ensemble here that would be good enough.  If we’re going to do it, it should be done with — not the way, we know, I know how it sounded with the, with the, with four soloistic voices, and that.  I’d rather have it sound nice and choral.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39393/file/110769#t=882.0,904.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39393/file/110769/transcript/24193/annotation/31","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"BARON:  But you need four solo singers?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  No.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eBARON:  Four — a choir?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  A real choir. A choir.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eBARON:  I could arrange that, possibly.  I could even arrange it at, I’m closer to Temple Sinai, though we do have singers there.  And have them…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  I mean, here at the university, is there any…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eBARON:  We have a choir at the university, yeah.  We could…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Have a look into it.  See if it’s good enough…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eBARON:  Yeah.  There’s, there some, yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  You know…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eBARON:  The, the choir at, at the Temple is a professional choir.  It’s all Christians.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  But…","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39393/file/110769#t=904.0,928.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39393/file/110769/transcript/24193/annotation/32","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"BARON:  The, the organist is Christian.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eBARON:  So it’s, it would be perfectly within keeping of the, of the original setting.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  How big is it?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eBARON:  There, the temple, the temple’s is, is, it’s just a four-voice…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Yeah, that’s what I want.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eBARON:  Yeah.  And you want, but you want a choir.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eBARON:  Well, yes.  We do have a university choir here that would have, like, 40…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Even though we know that even down in, even in my time, even in the Reform temple, a choir meant four singers.  But I hate that sound.  It sounds, that’s what turns people off.  I really, I, I’m convinced that the… it’s very…","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39393/file/110769#t=928.0,956.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39393/file/110769/transcript/24193/annotation/33","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"BARON:  We have a Jewish Choral Society, made up of members of the, all three Reform synagogues.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eBARON:  They put on one concert a year or so.  And…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Yeah, maybe that…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eBARON:  That might be…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN: …filling in with some…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eBARON:  If I, if I asked them to do some of that, they could do it.  Now, they’re not professional singers.  It’s a…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  This is very easy music.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eBARON: …it’s a, it’s a community choir.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  But the… it’s very easy music.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eBARON:  And I think they could do a credible job.  And I, let me talk to the director of that…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Yeah.  And then maybe if you want to combine something from the University students, too, or whatever.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39393/file/110769#t=956.0,978.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39393/file/110769/transcript/24193/annotation/34","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"BARON:  Well, I think — that would actually be a good group to do it.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Yeah.  Let’s check it out.  Because it would be, that makes sense — to do it here.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eBARON:  Okay. Remember though, back in the 1880s through the — the whole time that Kitziger was here, this was the leading city for opera in America.  So this city had a large number of voices who were highly trained.  And they no doubt performed at synagogues as well as churches.  The chorus people — they were a big chorus. We have an opera, but it’s not the same dimensions as back then.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39393/file/110769#t=978.0,1004.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39393/file/110769/transcript/24193/annotation/35","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"LEVIN:  Yeah.  I just passed by the opera house last night, in the French Quarter.  The original opera house.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eBARON:  There’s the picture hanging on the wall over there.  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Yeah.  That’s, most people don’t realize, because they think everything always centered in New York.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eBARON:  When New Yorkers wanted to hear opera in the 1820s and ‘30s, they imported it from New Orleans.  So…yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eBARON:  Okay, now, you want to talk about Henry Jacobs?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Now let’s talk about Henry Jacobs.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39393/file/110769#t=1004.0,1024.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39393/file/110769/transcript/24193/annotation/36","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eBARON:\u003c/strong\u003e Okay.  Henry Jacobs — I’ll give you a little background, a biography of him. He was born in 1907, here in New Orleans.  And I don’t know much of his childhood or his upbringing and so on, but I assume he was a Reform Jew and probably had some association with Temple Sinai. In 1939, he became the music director at Temple Sinai.  I do not know what kind of education he had up to that point.  Uh, he also was a youth director at Temple Sinai.  And he served in that capacity until his death in 1964. During those years, he was in the service for a couple of years, during the Second World War.  He came back, and in 1952, did get a degree in music from Loyola University.  And two years later, got his master’s in musicology here at Tulane, on a subject that dealt with nusaḥ in Reform music at that time.  And there’s a copy of that master’s thesis in the library. So he knew enough about tradition to be able to describe — à la Eric Werner’s In the Choir Loft or whatever, some of those type of things — to describe some of the Jewish modes people talked about a lot in those days, and show how it existed in, in some traditional synagogue music and the music that was being used at, at Temple Sinai. His claim to fame, I guess, would be in two areas.  One is that he was a member of the American Guild of Organists.  He was president of the local chapter of the American Guild of Organists.  And in 1954, when he writes his little autobiographical blurb at the end of his thesis, he says he is the only Jewish certified by the American Guild of Organists — only Jewish certified organist in the country.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39393/file/110769#t=1024.0,1126.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39393/file/110769/transcript/24193/annotation/37","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"LEVIN:  Now, that — what year?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eBARON:  1954.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN: That doesn’t sound right.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eBARON: I’m a little bit suspicious, because Berlinski was here then and others who were organists.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Well, yeah.  I don’t know if Berlinski was in the Guild yet.  But even without Berlinski, it was already, you know…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eBARON:  Well, from his perspective…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  1954 that there would be only one Jew in the… nationally in the American Guild of Organists?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eBARON:  Who was certified as a whatever.  They, they…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  A member.  I mean…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eBARON:  Yeah, that was a member.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN: …what does it mean to be certified?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39393/file/110769#t=1126.0,1149.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39393/file/110769/transcript/24193/annotation/38","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"BARON:  I guess some sort of certificate, whatever it is.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  I find that very hard to believe.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eBARON:  But it is true, in any case, that he’s one of the very rare American Jewish organists. The other claim to fame, of course, yet to be established as thoroughly is that he wrote a huge amount of music, all of which remains in manuscript.  His son has the complete collection.  And a great deal of it is organ music.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Solo organ music?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eBARON:  Solo organ music.  So that we have a composer who could be a, an important — I’m not sure any of it’s great music.  I won’t know, again, until I can get my hands on the manuscripts.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39393/file/110769#t=1149.0,1182.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39393/file/110769/transcript/24193/annotation/39","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"LEVIN:  You haven’t…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eBARON:  I have seen some of the manuscripts in past years.  Did not have time, at that time, to do much with it. I had a student 25 years ago by the name of Judy Penolus-Fairty, who was working on an undergraduate degree thesis on Jewish music.  And I asked her to go look at Henry Jacobs’ stuff. She did a little bit, but she ended up not writing her thesis on that subject.  But she did try to get hold of the music, and the son at that time would not let her touch any of his father’s music. Maybe it’s 25 years later, he has a different opinion about that. Henry Jacobs had three children — two daughters and a son.  I know that one daughter, I, I know of who lives here.  And I was hoping to approach her on that. That might be a topic after the next two books that I’ve scheduled to write, to do some project on.  On him.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39393/file/110769#t=1182.0,1229.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39393/file/110769/transcript/24193/annotation/40","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"LEVIN:  Yeah.  I think….  Well, the first thing is to try to see whether it’s worth the effort musically.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eBARON:  Yeah.  He was a, obviously aware of things, competent musician.  And well, as a niche, I guess, he was…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  You don’t know whether it fits into the category of more, of the classic Reform?  In other words, a resetting of things that…","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39393/file/110769#t=1229.0,1250.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39393/file/110769/transcript/24193/annotation/41","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"BARON:  No, from my impression…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN: …or whether it…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eBARON: …is that he knows the music of Helfman, he knows the music of some of the other composers who by that time had already published — Janowski and others.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  So it might have been the influence of somebody who is important…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eBARON:  And we’re talking about the ‘40s and, and the early ‘50s.  Though, by that time, there were enough of those compositions coming out. He, I think those were his inspirations.  So he’s in that, more in aiming at that style — more of an art, contemporary artsong.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39393/file/110769#t=1250.0,1274.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39393/file/110769/transcript/24193/annotation/42","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"LEVIN:  But he still probably, he was writing for Sinai?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eBARON:  Writing for Temple Sinai.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  So, he still wouldn’t have had anything cantorial in there.  Even a solo.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eBARON:  No, but…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Maybe just something, maybe he had a choral soloist.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eBARON:  No, I think it was all for chorus.  When he wrote for voices.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Even Helfman is very cantorial.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39393/file/110769#t=1274.0,1290.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39393/file/110769/transcript/24193/annotation/43","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eBARON:\u003c/strong\u003e Yeah, well, but they had cantors at this, at various places where he was. So, but I, I think that it might also look into youth music.  Because, as I said, also, he was very important in the youth movement here.  He was doing work with, with teens at the synagogue, and not just in the synagogue, but in the whole region.  This area. Sufficiently active and popular among the kids that when he died, they wanted to give him a memorial.  And it turned up at about five years later, when they opened up the camp in Hattiesburg — in Utica, Mississippi.  And…","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39393/file/110769#t=1290.0,1324.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39393/file/110769/transcript/24193/annotation/44","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"LEVIN:  It was called Camp Henry Jacobs from the beginning?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eBARON:  As far as I know, from the very beginning.  The camp didn’t open for another five years.  I’m told there were camps, but I, I would have to talk to Macy Hart, to get the exact chronology. But the camp, since it opened, was known as Henry S. Jacobs camp.  And it is the center of youth in this, this — what? — four- or five-state region.  The kids who live on plantations or on the farms will drive — that’s the highlight of their year, is being able to spend a, a month or two at that camp.  Because then they can meet other Jewish kids, whom they do not see for the rest of the time. And these kids fight for survival.  It is a very inspiring thing, to see what goes on at that camp.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39393/file/110769#t=1324.0,1365.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39393/file/110769/transcript/24193/annotation/45","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"LEVIN:  What goes on musically?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eBARON:  Musically?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Similar…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eBARON:  Debbie Friedman.  That’s, that’s what they sing at the camps.  You get your old banjo or guitar player, and, and have them sing.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Well, actually…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eBARON:  Klepper has actually been at the camp, and he has done…","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39393/file/110769#t=1365.0,1380.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39393/file/110769/transcript/24193/annotation/46","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"LEVIN:  Yeah, that whole crowd.  You know, Klepper, Stevens, Doug Cotler.  Everyone else is falling.  But actually, I have to say that the selection that I heard your daughter sing L’dor V’dor has kind of joined that ranks, too.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eBARON:  Yeah.  Well, I don’t know exactly where they put it.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN: It was better.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eBARON: It’s better.  It’s a higher quality, and it’s, well, you know, that’s what’s happening in Jewish…","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39393/file/110769#t=1380.0,1403.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39393/file/110769/transcript/24193/annotation/47","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"LEVIN: Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eBARON: Well, we can get into a long discussion of how I feel that it looks like Jewish music.  That we know is Jewish music is, is rapidly disappearing.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Yeah.  Well, it is.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eBARON:  And, cant - even cantillation, which is at the core of it, is becoming so stylized that there’s, there’s no feeling of the freedom that used to exist in it.  If you don’t sing it exactly the way somebody tells you to sing it, it’s wrong.  And that’s…","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39393/file/110769#t=1403.0,1424.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39393/file/110769/transcript/24193/annotation/48","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"LEVIN:  It’s interesting.  Yeah, but that’s a different issue.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eBARON:  Yeah, well…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  But it’s an interesting question there.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eBARON:  Well, I think listening to the cantillation in the Yemenites and others gives you a little feeling that it doesn’t have to be quite so rigid. But there are certain things that one has to do.  Anyway, that’s getting…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  That’s another story.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eBARON:  Yeah, yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  It is an interesting story, to me.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39393/file/110769#t=1424.0,1440.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39393/file/110769/transcript/24193/annotation/49","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eBARON:\u003c/strong\u003e There are, there are a couple other Jewish things that I was going to mention.  One of them had to do with Louis Armstrong. Louis Armstrong was born in 1901, August of 1901, in New Orleans, right off of Canal Street, in downtown, the central business district.  And when he was about four or five years old, he began to hang about — hang around — with some family with five boys, some of them roughly his age.  It was the Karnofsky family. And the Karnofskys were a Jewish immigrant family from Eastern Europe.  And they — the father — had a rag cart, which he used to drive through the city.  And he gave Louis a job on his truck, with the other boys.  Louis could have a whistle and blow on the whistle whenever the rag truck was going through neighborhoods, so people would know the rag truck was coming through.  And it was Louis’ first instrument. Following that, a year or two after that episode, when it started, Louis saw a trumpet or a bugle — whatever it was — sitting in a pawnshop window.  It’s for sale for $12.  Louis did not have $12. So Mr. Karnofsky made a deal with him.  He’d buy him the trumpet, if Louis would then continue to ride on the rag truck for one more year or so.  Which he did.  Louis’ first trumpet. This is not in his autobiography that was published, but is in Louis Armstrong’s autobiography that’s now at Queens College.  And he, he recalls the Karnofsky family with great pleasure, and says in that autobiography — the second autobiography, unpublished one — that he still has matzo in his kitchen, because he learned to eat Jewish food at the Karnofskys’, and he loves Jewish food. Somebody told me recently, who knew Louis Armstrong, that he always wore a Magen David around his neck.  And he got that from the Karnofskys, I assume.  And that he had a mezuzah on his door, again from the Karnofskys.  The Karnofskys were a very, a tremendous, warm influence in his life. Now, what I’m curious about, there was a paper published two or three years ago, about Louis Armstrong’s, the early influences on Louis Armstrong, emphasizing the Italian opera influence on Louis Armstrong.  As a little kid, he used to sneak into the opera and watch operas here in town.  He loved the operas.  The Italian operas in particular.  And this paper points out the Italian opera arias that turn up in Louis Armstrong’s music. Well, my question is, did he hear the Karnofskys sing any Yiddish songs or Jewish — any Jewish music?  And did any of it turn up in his music?  I mean, I think we’re looking for a needle in a haystack.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39393/file/110769#t=1440.0,1598.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39393/file/110769/transcript/24193/annotation/50","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"LEVIN:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eBARON:  But it might, it, the, the possibility is, is, it could be there.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Are there Karnofsky descendants here in New Orleans?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eBARON:  The last of the five brothers died about three or four years ago.  And the, this next generation, there are numerous survivors around here.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Because…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eBARON:  Of course, they’ve heard it from legend.  They’ve heard it from their parents.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  They’re all here, though?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39393/file/110769#t=1598.0,1618.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39393/file/110769/transcript/24193/annotation/51","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eBARON:\u003c/strong\u003e They’re, well, the leading one to get in touch with in this matter is Judge Karno.  He is a judge in, in Metairie.  And he’s very interested in genealogy, genealogy, and we’ve had long talks about this. And he, his father was one of the oldest brothers.  And so, he, he would be a source for any, anything like this.  But he’s not a musician, he knows nothing about music.  He wouldn’t know what, he probably wouldn’t even recognize anything that his father might have known, as, in terms of Jewish music.  He might. The family was a traditional family, whether they belonged to the Conservative or an Orthodox synagogue.  They were not Reform Jews.  So there’s more of a, a likelihood that there was some Yiddishkeit and nusaḥ in whatever.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39393/file/110769#t=1618.0,1656.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39393/file/110769/transcript/24193/annotation/52","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"LEVIN:  I think, now the manuscripts of the Jacobs, that has to be gotten, or at least copies.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eBARON:  Right.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  You think the time is right to…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eBARON: I would hope the time is right to…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN: …get his son to have copies made?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eBARON: …to deal with it, in a number of ways.  To get interest in the, in, in the family for maybe even publishing some of it, and that might appeal to them at this point.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Yeah.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39393/file/110769#t=1656.0,1680.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39393/file/110769/transcript/24193/annotation/53","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"BARON:  And then to have some of it available on a recording, that…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  But first, no.  I mean, even just to getting a set of INAUDIBLE made so that you or a grad student…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eBARON:  Oh, I would…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN: …so we can read through them and see if it’s worth the effort.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eBARON:  Yeah.  I need to go back to the, to Temple Sinai and see.  There was some music around there. Of course, nobody cares about old music and they, they tend to throw it out…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Right.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39393/file/110769#t=1680.0,1698.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39393/file/110769/transcript/24193/annotation/54","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eBARON:\u003c/strong\u003e …or use it as garbage or who knows what.  I, I was able to rescue some things a few years ago, and I hope it’s still there. Now, the organist who succeeded Henry Jacobs walked by here about 30 minutes ago.  And I asked her, what do you remember about Henry Jacobs?  And she said — she’s seventy-some years old.  She said, “Oh, Henry Jacobs.”  She could tell you all sorts of stories about Henry Jacobs. When he became sick in 1963, he asked her to fill in for him on, occasionally, while he couldn’t perform.  So, there’s a direct communication between Henry Jacobs and her.  She is now, still, the organist at Temple Sinai.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39393/file/110769#t=1698.0,1730.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39393/file/110769/transcript/24193/annotation/55","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"LEVIN:  Uh huh. And with regard to the Kitziger manuscripts, those are all here at the University?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eBARON: Yeah, between our achives here and the Library of Congress. We do not have all four volumes, the Library of Congress, however, has the volumes we’re missing. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN: They have the missing ones…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eBARON: Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN: … so that’s it. Are there any other Kitziger manuscripts that you know of, that you know of that were not in the published volume?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eBARON:  There were — well not, not manuscripts outside of the published.  Those that he etched in the…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Yeah.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39393/file/110769#t=1730.0,1754.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39393/file/110769/transcript/24193/annotation/56","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eBARON:\u003c/strong\u003e …and engraved himself.  And all of the Touro historical records are in the, our archive, Tulane Archive. Now, there was one I was hoping to, to be able to get hold of the manuscript that was in the archive that I could bring here. For years, on the back door of Touro synagogue, they had a showcase.  A small showcase.  And in there was Kitziger music.  Somebody had stuck there 25 years ago.  And it sat there.  And it was getting damaged.  And I said, “You know, you shouldn’t be just leaving it, sitting there.”  And so, I asked the rabbi there, when I saw him a week or so ago, could I please get that music?  And he said nothing’s there anymore.  They just are starting to renovate the building.  And that showcase and everything went. “Where is the stuff?” He said, “Well, we may have put it in a box.  If it wasn’t thrown out, it was put in a box somewhere.” So, you know, this is the inevitable story of this.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39393/file/110769#t=1754.0,1807.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39393/file/110769/transcript/24193/annotation/57","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"LEVIN:  Touro began as an Orthodox synagogue, didn’t it?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eBARON:  Yes.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Or…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eBARON:  In the 1820s.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Traditional, in the 1820s.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eBARON:  Yeah.  Bertram Korn has the history of the…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  So by the time that Kitziger was involved, it was completely a Reform temple.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39393/file/110769#t=1807.0,1821.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39393/file/110769/transcript/24193/annotation/58","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eBARON:\u003c/strong\u003e By that time, yes. Actually, it didn’t start with the name Touro.  Because Touro was not a, a known person at that time.  It had another name.  Gates of Mercy was the original name of the synagogue.  It was located in, near the French Quarter.  And it gradually moved to different locations.  The, the present location is, was came out, the present building was built in 1909, after Kitziger’s death. The building where Kitziger worked was leveled not many years ago.  It was, was a garage for a while, and it’s nothing there. There are two other synagogues in that neighborhood, however.  That was a very Jewish neighborhood.  One of the synagogues is still in operation.  Anshe Sfard.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39393/file/110769#t=1821.0,1857.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39393/file/110769/transcript/24193/annotation/59","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"LEVIN:  Which is an Orthodox synagogue?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eBARON:  Which is an Orthodox. Definitely an Orthodox synagogue.  Has about ten — barely ten — members left.  But it’s, it’s…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  I can imagine, yeah.  Okay, I think…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eBARON: Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN: I can ask you if there’s anything you want to say.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39393/file/110769#t=1857.0,1872.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39393/file/110769/transcript/24193/annotation/60","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eBARON:\u003c/strong\u003e Yeah.  The other thing that — we focused in on jazz before.  You focused in on some of these composers.  During the days of, well, more recent times, in terms of a symphony orchestra and other classical music institutions, there have been Jews involved in this as well, in various capacities. The conductors of the New Orleans Symphony.  The New Orleans Symphony was founded in 1936, and it lasted until 1988, when it was reorganized as the Louisiana Philharmonic.  And during the period of the Louisiana — of the New Orleans Symphony — at least two of the conductors were Jewish. Slotkin — Leonard Slotkin — conducted the orchestra for three years.  And, and the orchestra was probably at its height during that time. Before that time, there was an Israeli conductor who was the longest time.  He was here for about 15 years as conductor.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39393/file/110769#t=1872.0,1924.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39393/file/110769/transcript/24193/annotation/61","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"LEVIN:  Not Yuli Turovsky?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eBARON:  Uh, yeah, Torkanowsky. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Torkanowsky.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eBARON:  Yeah.  Torkanowsky.  Did Blackman mention him?  Did Blackman mention him or somebody?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  No.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eBARON:  Yeah.  Torkanowsky, who was a violinist — Israeli violinist and conductor.  And he was here for a long time as conductor. So there were Jews involved in various things. And there have been programs at the symphony of Jewish nature.  We have a German conductor today who has been very anxious in, in programming Jewish concerts.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39393/file/110769#t=1924.0,1952.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39393/file/110769/transcript/24193/annotation/62","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"LEVIN:  What’s the name?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eBARON:  So a — Seibel.  Klauspeter Seibel.  He’s also the conductor of the Frankfurt Opera.  And he’s done things. When Shostakovich — Maxim Shostakovich — was the conductor here, they did Berlinski’s The Beadle of Prague.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39393/file/110769#t=1952.0,1973.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39393/file/110769/transcript/24193/annotation/63","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"LEVIN:  Oh, they did it here?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eBARON:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Oh.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eBARON:  Berlinski has a brother who lived here.  And he has a lot of nephews and nieces.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Oh, I remember now.  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eBARON:  Right.  And so the orchestra did some of his compositions here.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Right, right.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eBARON:  So there’s been some Jewish content in the, in the orchestras. Some personnel, or, of course, a lot of members of the orchestra are Jewish.  And some specifically Jewish programs. There have been performances of Bloch’s Sacred Service I don’t know how many times, by various local choirs — all-black choirs or mixed choirs or Loyola University choir has done it.  So there, there’s various things going on in the community that would be related in that way to a Jewish, some sort of Jewish experience.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39393/file/110769#t=1973.0,2021.12"}]}]}]}