{"@context":"http://iiif.io/api/presentation/3/context.json","id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/iiif/n00zp3wn31/manifest","type":"Manifest","label":{"en":["Shenker, Ben Zion"]},"logo":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/organizations/logo_images/000/000/115/original/Boxed_Milken_Center_logo.png?1628711583","metadata":[{"label":{"en":["Preferred Citation"]},"value":{"en":["\u003cp\u003eShenker, Ben Zion. 1998. Interview by Neil W. Levin and Barry Serota. Milken Archive Oral History Project. 31 March.\u003c/p\u003e"]}},{"label":{"en":["Publisher"]},"value":{"en":["Milken Family Foundation"]}},{"label":{"en":["Rights Statement"]},"value":{"en":["\u003cp\u003e© Milken Family Foundation. Unauthorized use is prohibited. For inquiries, please contact info@milkenarchive.org.\u003c/p\u003e"]}},{"label":{"en":["Agent"]},"value":{"en":["Shenker, Ben Zion (Cantor/Hazzan)","Levin, Neil W. (Interviewer)","Serota, Barry (Interviewer)"]}},{"label":{"en":["Date"]},"value":{"en":["1998-03-31"]}},{"label":{"en":["Coverage"]},"value":{"en":["New York, NY (Place of Recording)"]}},{"label":{"en":["Language"]},"value":{"en":["English (Primary)"]}},{"label":{"en":["Description"]},"value":{"en":["\u003cp\u003eOral history interview with Ben Zion Shenker focused on his musical experiences as a child, his involvement with the Modzitzer Rebbe, and his ideas related to musical practices in the context of Jewish sacred services. Also encompasses other topics including Jews in Poland during WWII, the Jewish diaspora in the US, the importance of shepherd and peasant songs, \"niggun\" as a term or concept, his compositional process, and the histories of various Hassidic dynasties.\u003c/p\u003e\r\n\u003cp\u003e\u003ca href=\"https://www.milkenarchive.org/artists/view/ben-zion-shenker\"\u003eView Artist Page from the Milken Archive\u003c/a\u003e\u003c/p\u003e"]}},{"label":{"en":["Format"]},"value":{"en":["Beta SP"]}},{"label":{"en":["Subject"]},"value":{"en":["Jews -- Music (Topical Term)","Judaism -- Poland (Topical Term)","Oral Histories (genre/form)","World War, 1939-1945 -- Poland (Topical Term)","Hasidic Dynasty (Topical Term)","niggun (Topical Term)","Weisser, Joshua, 1888-1952 (Person Or Corporate Body)","Jewish diaspora (Topical Term)"]}},{"label":{"en":["Keyword"]},"value":{"en":["Bedford-Stuyvesant (New York, N.Y.), Benedict Stambler, Bobov, contrafactum, \"Der Alter Hazzan\" (song), draychas, Eishes Chayil (song/prayer), Elliot Birnbaum, folk music, Ger, hazzan, Joshua Weisser, L'kovid Shabbes (recording), Lubavitch, \"Ma'oz Tzur\" (prayer), Melaveh Malkah (recording; religious duty), \"Mizmor l'David\" (song/prayer), Modzitz, niggun, Poland, radio, rebbe, Ropshitz, Rozo D'Shabbos, sabbath, Satmar, Shalosh Regalim (recording; Three Pilgrimage festivals), Shlomo Carlebach, sopranist, Tish, vocable, World War II, Zeidel Rovner, zemirot"]}}],"summary":{"en":["\u003cp\u003eOral history interview with Ben Zion Shenker focused on his musical experiences as a child, his involvement with the Modzitzer Rebbe, and his ideas related to musical practices in the context of Jewish sacred services. Also encompasses other topics including Jews in Poland during WWII, the Jewish diaspora in the US, the importance of shepherd and peasant songs, \"niggun\" as a term or concept, his compositional process, and the histories of various Hassidic dynasties.\u003c/p\u003e\r\n\u003cp\u003e\u003ca href=\"https://www.milkenarchive.org/artists/view/ben-zion-shenker\"\u003eView Artist Page from the Milken Archive\u003c/a\u003e\u003c/p\u003e"]},"requiredStatement":{"label":{"en":["Attribution"]},"value":{"en":["\u003cp\u003e\u0026copy; Milken Family Foundation. Unauthorized use is prohibited. For inquiries, please contact info@milkenarchive.org.\u003c/p\u003e"]}},"provider":[{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/aboutus","type":"Agent","label":{"en":["Lowell Milken Center for Music of American Jewish Experience"]},"homepage":[{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/","type":"Text","label":{"en":["Lowell Milken Center for Music of American Jewish Experience"]},"format":"text/html"}],"logo":[{"id":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/organizations/logo_images/000/000/115/original/Boxed_Milken_Center_logo.png?1628711583","type":"Image"}]}],"thumbnail":[{"id":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/collection_resource_files/thumbnails/000/116/736/small/Shenker.jpg?1622834713","type":"Image","format":"image/jpeg"}],"items":[{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736","type":"Canvas","label":{"en":["Media File 1 of 1 - L3949_Ben_Zion_Shenker_4X3.mp4"]},"duration":6334.99733,"width":640,"height":360,"thumbnail":[{"id":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/collection_resource_files/thumbnails/000/116/736/small/Shenker.jpg?1622834713","type":"Image","format":"image/jpeg"}],"items":[{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736/content/1","type":"AnnotationPage","items":[{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736/content/1/annotation/1","type":"Annotation","motivation":"painting","body":{"id":"https://aviary-p-milken.s3.wasabisys.com/collection_resource_files/resource_files/000/116/736/original/L3949_Ben_Zion_Shenker_4X3.mp4?1622834617","type":"Video","format":"video/mp4","duration":6334.99733,"width":640,"height":360},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736","metadata":[]}]}],"annotations":[{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736/transcript/29097","type":"AnnotationPage","label":{"en":["Ben Zion Shenker [Transcript]"]},"items":[{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736/transcript/29097/annotation/1","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"LEVIN: But what did it mean to be the musical secretary, which was your title at one time?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eSHENKER:  Well…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Was it an unofficial title or an official title?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003e\tSHENKER:  It was unofficial title, really.  I mean, there’s no such thing as the New York musical secretary.  It’s just that…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Musical secretary to the Modzitzer Rebbe.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736#t=18.0,30.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736/transcript/29097/annotation/2","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSHENKER:\u003c/strong\u003e Right.  What it actually means is that, being that the Rebbe himself, who was a composer, could not himself notate, because he never studied the musical theory or anything else.  I mean, although he had a — somehow, it was somewhat of a al-suoga, somewhat of the idea of what it was all about.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736#t=30.0,50.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736/transcript/29097/annotation/3","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Because if you had one of his pieces notated, he would be able to, to differentiate between one and the other.  He said, “This niggun is that and this niggun is that.”  So he did have some sort of al-suogah about it.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003e\tHowever, he could not notate on his own.  So, I was the one to do all the notations for those compositions that were composed here in America.  Of course, those that were done in Poland, many of them were notated already.  Many were not.  Many were lost.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736#t=50.0,81.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736/transcript/29097/annotation/4","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"LEVIN:  Who notated his melodies in Poland?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003e\tSHENKER:  It was done, actually, towards the end, really, in other words, when the war really had broken out.  He fled from Warsaw, from the Warsaw area to Vilna.  That was in Lithuania.  Which was, at the time, I think, under Russian domination.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736#t=81.0,102.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736/transcript/29097/annotation/5","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"And while he was there, he realized that nobody has ever notated his niggunim and here, there’s a war going on.  And you know, we had no tape recorders at the time.  There was nothing — no other way — to have it, put it, I mean, to come to the, for the, for, through eternity.  In other words, that was the only way to do it.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736#t=102.0,122.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736/transcript/29097/annotation/6","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSEROTA:\u003c/strong\u003e Idelsohn knew.  His choir…","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736#t=122.0,136.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736/transcript/29097/annotation/7","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SHENKER:  Idelsohn, yeah.  Well, Idelsohn was the one that recommended this fellow.  Because he was a hazzan in…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eSEROTA:  In the Stotschule.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003e\tSHENKER:  In the Stotschule.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eSEROTA:  I think his father was…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eSHENKER:  And Idelsohn’s father was the one who was from Poland.  Idelsohn…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eSEROTA:  Koifman…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003e\tSHENKER:  Koifman Yiddel, his name was.  Koifman Yiddel Idelsohn.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eKoifman Yiddel was very close to the, to the Rebbe.  And he was a composer in his own right.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736#t=136.0,153.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736/transcript/29097/annotation/8","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SHENKER:  This was in 19, the beginning of 1940 or end of 1939.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  But after the…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003e\tSHENKER:   When the war broke out.  Then he fled.  The war started on September 1st, 1939.  And I believe in about two or three days — it was that, actually, during, during Rosh Hashanah of that year — that he was running from, from the Nazi bombardment of the, over — first it was Warsaw, then it was all along the way.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  [INAUDIBLE].","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736#t=153.0,181.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736/transcript/29097/annotation/9","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SHENKER:  And they managed to escape the, I think, within about a month or so, they managed to get to Vilna.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  You say “they.”  You mean the…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003e\tSHENKER:  I mean most…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  …the whole…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eSHENKER:  No.  Not, it was the Rebbe that went, a number of his sons and a son-in-law, and also, I believe, the Gabbai — the person that was…","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736#t=181.0,197.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736/transcript/29097/annotation/10","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"LEVIN:  And they were coming from what town?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003e\tSHENKER:  From, at Twosk.  Twosk was a little hamlet about a half hour away from Warsaw.  That’s where the Rebbe lived.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  So where comes the name Modzitzer?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eSHENKER:  Ah, that’s a good question.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736#t=197.0,211.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736/transcript/29097/annotation/11","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Modzitz actually was where his father lived.  His father moved from Modzitz during the First World War and came into Warsaw.  And the holchus — I mean that he never went back to Modzitz, as far as I know.  So he was niphtir, and he passed away in 1920.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736#t=211.0,230.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736/transcript/29097/annotation/12","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"And the Rebbe that time, who was, became his successor was a rabbi in a small town called Rackov.  And that’s where he assumed Hassidis at that time, and of course, later, he moved closer to Warsaw, which was at Twosk.  That was the….","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736#t=230.0,251.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736/transcript/29097/annotation/13","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Twosk was actually a resort town.  It was very well-known, because they had the, I believe they have pine trees and they have the people that were, that have suffered from asthma and everything else used to come there during the, in the summer, during….  It was a very well-known….\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003e\tAnd you had about five or six other rebbayim living in the same town, at the same time.  Including, including the Lubavitcher Rebbe, incidentally.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Oh, really?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eSHENKER:  Yeah.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736#t=251.0,272.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736/transcript/29097/annotation/14","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"LEVIN:  But not all year-round?  Just as like…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eSHENKER:  No, he lived there for all year-round.  When he, when he came to Poland in, in the ‘30s, that’s where he settled — in the Twosk.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  So they both — the Modzitzer and the Lubavitch…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003e\tSHENKER:  And they knew each other very well.  They knew each other very well.  They were very friendly.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eSEROTA:  And they both lived in Crown Heights, later on.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736#t=272.0,286.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736/transcript/29097/annotation/15","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SHENKER:  Later on.  No.  The Rebbe lived in Williamsburg.  Whereas…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eSEROTA:  The Modzitzer…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003e\tSHENKER:  The Modzitzer lived in Williamsburg, whereas the Lubavitcher lived in Crown Heights.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Well, what about his following?  What about the flock?  I mean the Modzitzer.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736#t=286.0,299.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736/transcript/29097/annotation/16","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SHENKER:  The Modzitzer Hassidim, I would say 90 percent probably never had, never made it.  They were, there was only — and the only ones that did make it were those that came to Israel in the ‘30s.  And he was…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  In the 30s?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736#t=299.0,310.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736/transcript/29097/annotation/17","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SHENKER:  Yes.  Because he was very strong for the Yish Eretz Yisroel.  Which is something that most people don’t know about.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003e\tBut of, of the, of the few rebbayim in Poland that actually told the Hassidism to go to Eretz Yisroel, he was one of the very few.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003e\tLEVIN:  But he didn’t…","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736#t=310.0,327.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736/transcript/29097/annotation/18","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SHENKER:  Well, he wanted to settle in Eretz Yisroel.  He was there in 1938.  And that was one of his, his third visit to Eretz Yisroel.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003e\tAnd when he was there at that time, his son, who later succeeded him, settled in Eretz Yisroel in 1935.  Also came there on the visit with his father, and he decided he wants to stay there.  He brought his family over.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  But the bulk of the Hassidim…","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736#t=327.0,347.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736/transcript/29097/annotation/19","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SHENKER:  They were left.  They were never, they never made it.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  So the Modzitzer Hassidim were murdered…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003e\tSHENKER:  Yeah.  I mean, you had a few in America.  You have a, you have them spread all over the world, I mean, but in small — very small — groups.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003e\tWhen, of course, when the Rebbe lived in America, of course, he’s, he created a new following, a new…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  How old does the Modzitzer dynasty go?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736#t=347.0,364.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736/transcript/29097/annotation/20","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSHENKER:\u003c/strong\u003e The dynasty is about — actually, it’s about 110 years.  Because the, his father succeeded his father, who lived, actually, in a town called Zvolin.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736#t=364.0,377.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736/transcript/29097/annotation/21","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"The, the founder of the dynasty was the Rebbe Yechezkel of Kuzmir.  And it was, that goes back five generations.  He was the original founder.  And his son was called Reb Shmuel Eliyahu of Zvolin.  And the Zvoliner’s son was Reb Yisroel of Modzitz.  And that was, he was Nifter in 1887.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736#t=377.0,398.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736/transcript/29097/annotation/22","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"So you would say it’s about 110, 111 years.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Now then, he came to the United States for…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eSHENKER:  As a refugee.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  What years were those?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eSHENKER:  It was 1940.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003e\tLEVIN:  So from ’40 to about ’47…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eSHENKER:  ’40 to ’47, he lived in the United States, yeah.  Then he went to Israel.  He wanted to settle, and it didn’t take him more than about a half year, and he was, took sick and he passed away.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  And then he was succeeded by…","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736#t=398.0,421.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736/transcript/29097/annotation/23","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SHENKER:  He was succeeded by his son, who lived in Tel Aviv.  The, the son who lived in Tel Aviv was a, was in the rabbinate.  He was in the, the, the Tel Aviv rabbinate.  He was a member of the rabbinate.  And of course, when he became the Rebbe, he gave that up, because it was…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  So there is such a thing, now, as a Modzitzer community and…","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736#t=421.0,440.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736/transcript/29097/annotation/24","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SHENKER:  Yes, there is.  Sure, there is.  A very big one.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Here?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003e\tSHENKER:  Here we have, we have one that, in Flatbush.  A very vibrant one.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  There is.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003e\tSHENKER:  Yes.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  And it’s self-contained as Modzitzer.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eSHENKER:  Self-contained at Modzitz, sure.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  And these are people, who didn’t, for whatever reason…","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736#t=440.0,454.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736/transcript/29097/annotation/25","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SHENKER:  Well, they have a lot of American boys in here.  I mean, it’s people that either had, either their parents may have had the, you know, an affiliation or and then if I tell some that actually became sort of latched on during the years.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  But not these.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736#t=454.0,466.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736/transcript/29097/annotation/26","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SHENKER:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  There’s very few, would you say, or if any…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eSHENKER:  From the, from the original Hassidim?  No.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Direct descendants of the original…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003e\tSHENKER:  No.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  In Israel, some of them are?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eSHENKER:  Israel.  Well, Israel, they have the present Rebbe is son of the…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003e\tSHENKER:  …of the Rebbe that succeeded the…","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736#t=466.0,481.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736/transcript/29097/annotation/27","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"LEVIN:  And now, what about your association?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eSHENKER:  Well, that’s interesting.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003e\tYou see, my association is interesting.  It really was my father.  My parents were not Modzitzifer.  Although they are Polish.  They, they came from the same towns, not too far away.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736#t=481.0,495.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736/transcript/29097/annotation/28","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"But my father was considered a hassid of Trisk, which is Chernobyl.  You know, the, that Chernobyl dynasty.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Right.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003e\tSHENKER:  But when, when the Rebbe came to America, of course, I was attending at the Yeshiva Torah V’Naaseh at the time.  And the Rebbe lived in Williamsburg.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736#t=495.0,512.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736/transcript/29097/annotation/29","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"LEVIN:  You were born…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eSHENKER:  I was born in the United States, here.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Oh, you were born here?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eSHENKER:  Yes.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  All right.  So…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003e\tSHENKER:  So, I was a student in Torah V’Naaseh, and together with many other students, we used to go to the Rebbe’s.  And that’s how we, I mean, I have the, the, and I, and personally, I have a, I had a very strong affiliation with the Rebbe.  But there was a reason for it.  Besides the fact that I was very musically inclined.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736#t=512.0,537.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736/transcript/29097/annotation/30","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"I mean, I, I was, did a lot in music at the time, even as a kid.  I, I sang in Hazzan Weiser’s choir, as, as you know.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Who was that?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003e\tSHENKER:  Yehoshua Weiser.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Oh.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eSHENKER:  Yeah.  Yehoshua Weiser was a composer.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Yeah.  I didn’t…","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736#t=537.0,553.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736/transcript/29097/annotation/31","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SHENKER:  I, I was…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  I thought you were saying Hilde Wasser.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eSHENKER:  Hilde Wasser.  Yeah, you got it.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  You sang in his choir as a boy?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eSHENKER:  As a boy, yes.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Soprano?  Alto?  What?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003e\tSHENKER:  I used to sing alto.  As you sing, as a soloist.  That was — there were two alto soloists.  I was the…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  But that was, of course, outside the Hassidic world, I suppose.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736#t=553.0,570.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736/transcript/29097/annotation/32","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SHENKER:  Oh, it had nothing to do with…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  That type of thing, you know.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eSHENKER:  It had nothing to do with Hassidic.  I mean, I — that was before my affiliation with Modzitz, actually.  Because…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eSEROTA:  When did you first begin to sing with Weiser?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eSHENKER:  When I was 12 years old.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003e\tSEROTA:  Did you sing with another hazzan before Weiser?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eSHENKER:  I tried out with other, other choirs.  But I never, for some reason, or not — I never could, could really make up my mind.  I don’t want to sing; I want to sing in a choir.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736#t=570.0,590.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736/transcript/29097/annotation/33","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"In fact, a, the name Nadler, I’m sure you’re also aware of.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eSEROTA:  Max Nadler.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003e\tSHENKER:  Max Nadler.  Well, he was, he used to live in Williamsburg.  And he used to do all his rehearsing during, on Shabbes.  Shabbes afternoon.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003e\tSo one day, my friend Josh Silbermintz, brother of Seymour Silbermintz — we davened in the same shteibl in Williamsburg.  So he says, “Ben Zion, how about going with me?”","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736#t=590.0,611.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736/transcript/29097/annotation/34","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"I, I, he sang in the choir.  All the, all the Silbermintzes sang in, in Nadler’s choir at that time.  Including Seymour, I believe.  Maybe Seymour was, was old already, so he was out, possibly.  But the, the kids, you know.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003e\tAaron — do you remember Aaron, also?  He was a, Aaron was a bass, later.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eSEROTA:  Teddy.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003e\tSHENKER:  Teddy.  Teddy is still around, baruch hashem.  Aaron, I imagine, is gone.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAnyway — Josh is also gone, in fact.  That’s the youngest one.  Josh was my contemporary.  We were friends.  We went to yeshiva together.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736#t=611.0,636.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736/transcript/29097/annotation/35","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"So he says, “How about joining the, the choir?”\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eI said, “So what are you supposed to do?”\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHe says, “Well, come up and let him listen to you.”  And I was probably about ten or 11 years at the time.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003e\tSo I went there one Shabbes afternoon and, and he was rehearsing with the kids.  And I saw that he took one kid and he slapped him over the face when the kid hit a bad note or something.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736#t=636.0,657.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736/transcript/29097/annotation/36","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"I says, “Oh well, that’s not for me,” I say.  “I’m getting out of here.”  Well…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eSEROTA:  What shul was this in?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003e\tSHENKER:  No, it wasn’t in a shul.  It was in his home.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eSEROTA:  I see.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eSHENKER:  Yeah.  Then I think there was another choir conductor, name of Trachtenberg.  Did you ever hear of, do you remember Trachtenberg?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eSEROTA:  Trachtenberg, yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003e\tSHENKER:  Trachtenberg.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  I remember Trachtenberg, Frachtenberg, Machtenberg.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eSHENKER:  Right.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736#t=657.0,672.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736/transcript/29097/annotation/37","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SEROTA:  Sounds like a law firm.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eSHENKER:  Or a vaudeville team, maybe a little.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAt any rate, they, I tried out.  They were also, and also, I didn’t….\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003e\tFinally, how I wound up with Weiser, because he was in the neighborhood.  We lived in Bedford-Stuyvesant at the time.  And Weiser, I think, heard me at one time daven for the amud.  In, in our shteibl I used to daven.  But for some reason, like they, at 12 years, they let, they, they wanted me to daven for the amud.  Which I did, and, and Weiser was, happened to be there.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736#t=672.0,701.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736/transcript/29097/annotation/38","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"And he says, he called, went over to my father, he says, “I’ve got to have this boy.  This boy is a,” beh-beh-beh, and….\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003e\tAnd then, he, he talked my father into it and I joined this choir.  So that was my early musical experience.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eSEROTA:  How many singers were in the choir?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003e\tSHENKER:  You know who was in the choir at the time?  Richard Tucker, incidentally.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736#t=701.0,718.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736/transcript/29097/annotation/39","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"LEVIN:  In the choir?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003e\tSHENKER:  He was in the choir, yeah.  But he was…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  He wasn’t Richard Tucker.  He was Ruben…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eSHENKER:  He was Ruben, Ruby…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Toicher, wasn’t it?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003e\tSHENKER:  Toicher, not Toicher.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Ticker?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eSHENKER:  Ticker, or something like that.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003e\tBut he left at the, I mean, when I came in, he was just about leaving.  Because…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eSEROTA:  He was singing tenor at that time?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003e\tSHENKER:  He was singing tenor at that time, yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHe was also studying with Weiser.  He was studying hazzanas with Weiser.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736#t=718.0,735.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736/transcript/29097/annotation/40","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"LEVIN:  Privately?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eSHENKER:  Privately, yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAt any rate, we, we got off on a tangent.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  No, it’s not a tangent.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eSEROTA:  This is the build-up.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Everything is related to everything.\u003cbr\u003eSEROTA:  Now, I recall when we spoke before…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003e\tSHENKER:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eSEROTA:  You were mentioning as to how it was that you sang on the radio.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003e\tSHENKER:  True.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736#t=735.0,750.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736/transcript/29097/annotation/41","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SEROTA:  As a child.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eSHENKER:  Yes.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eSEROTA:  You want to tell us about that?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003e\tSHENKER:  How, really, it came about, you know I really, I can’t, I can’t even remember the exact procedure there.  But I remember something to the extent that — and this sounds a little funny.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736#t=750.0,765.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736/transcript/29097/annotation/42","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"There was a, a program that was run by a fellow named Mogilevsky.  And he had a, a clothing store on the East Side.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003e\tSEROTA:  He ran the clothing union.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eSHENKER:  Was it, was there a clothing…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eSEROTA:  The Clothing Exchange.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003e\tSHENKER:  The word Clothing Exchange?  Possibly.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eSEROTA:  Yeah.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736#t=765.0,779.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736/transcript/29097/annotation/43","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSHENKER:\u003c/strong\u003e And I think for, I, my parents took me to buy a suit there, or something or other.  And, and Mogilevsky himself used to say — he was, was doing all the fitting and everything else.  And then my father or my mother must have said that, that, that I have a very good voice and I sing very well.  And I was probably all of 12 years old.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003e\tSo he says, “Yeah?  Let me hear you.”","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736#t=779.0,798.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736/transcript/29097/annotation/44","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"So I started singing for him.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eSo he says, “I’m going to get you on my program.”\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003e\tSo I says, “Program?  What kind of, what are you, what are you talking about?”\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHe says, “I have a, I have a radio program.  I like the way you sound.”\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003e\tSure enough, I, I wound up on his program.  I had — well, that was only one.  Then, of course, from there, I, I got other programs.  I must have been on my, about three different radio stations.  There were, at that time, you know, there were a lot of Jewish radio stations in New York.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736#t=798.0,820.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736/transcript/29097/annotation/45","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SEROTA:  What station was Mogilevsky’s program on?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003e\tSHENKER:  Besides — but that, I can’t remember.  I really can’t remember names.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  So what kind of thing did you sing?  I mean, you didn’t have any formal music training, did you?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003e\tSHENKER:  Well, I was, I was singing in Weiser’s choir.  And Weiser used to give me private lessons…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  So he taught you…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eSHENKER:  …on the side.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003e\tLEVIN:  …to read notes and all?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eSHENKER:  So I — no.  Well, he started teaching me to read notes.  But I read, later wound up with Seymour.  Seymour…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003e\tLEVIN:  Silbermintz.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736#t=820.0,839.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736/transcript/29097/annotation/46","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SHENKER:  Silbermintz, yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  But you didn’t read until you were in Weiser’s choir, which is already…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003e\tSHENKER:  No, I, when I was in, I, I sang in Weiser’s choir from the age of 12…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Well, so that’s…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003e\tSHENKER:  …to about the age of 15, really.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  You didn’t have any music training beforehand?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eSHENKER:  No, not really.  I, I didn’t read, I didn’t read…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  You didn’t play the violin or anything like that?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736#t=839.0,855.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736/transcript/29097/annotation/47","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SHENKER:  No.  No.  I studied piano later.  But I, I didn’t, I couldn’t read.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003e\tSHENKER:  I mean, I knew all the solos by heart.  I mean, I used to learn them and, and that’s….  But I…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  What kind of music did you — well, first of all, going back to how many were in, if you remember, how many were in the choir, average?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003e\tSHENKER:  I would, I would say about 16.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  That many?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eSHENKER:  Sure.  There, there were, it was called a double choir at that time.  That was the…","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736#t=855.0,879.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736/transcript/29097/annotation/48","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"LEVIN:  A double symphonic choir.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003e\tSHENKER:  Yeah, a double symphonic choir.  At least that’s what they used to have on the, in the ads, you know?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003e\tSHENKER:  But it was interesting.  He had some good singers in that choir, I want you to know.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eThere was a fellow, I’m trying to think of his name.  A, a refugee that came, that came before the war, but he was like, he came from Vienna.  Hoffman, maybe, or something.  He’s beautiful voice, a beautiful tenor voice.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003e\tThere was a fellow name of Beckerman that sang for, for probably for 40 years, who was a, his voice was, that he was oyshke spielt, as they say, you know.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Yeah.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736#t=879.0,908.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736/transcript/29097/annotation/49","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SHENKER:  But he still sang.  He had some, nice.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eThen, of course, he had those, those sopranos, who were really not sopranos.  They were men, you know.  Singing sopranos.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Not boys?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003e\tSHENKER:  He had, he had a few boys singing alto — the top part.  And then the, some kids sang the bottom part.  You know, they sang…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  So who sang — with soprano, he had the…","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736#t=908.0,926.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736/transcript/29097/annotation/50","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SHENKER:  He had, he had men singing soprano.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Grown men?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eSHENKER:  Well, sure.  Grown men.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  As opposed to boy sopranos?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003e\tSHENKER:  Right.  Then he had, you know, of course, they had the tenors, they had baritones and basses.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eSEROTA:  Was there anybody in that era who had just boys singing soprano?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736#t=926.0,940.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736/transcript/29097/annotation/51","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SHENKER:  Uh, the fact is that the, the, one of the soloists was, was also a alto, was like a very high alto — almost like a soprano.  Sang almost like a soprano.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Yeah, but you see, it’s the reason we’re asking you, because it’s very interesting.  Almost every hazzan whom we interview says that he was a boy in the choir.  And he was an alto.  So I said, who where are the sopranos?  Because in Europe…","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736#t=940.0,965.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736/transcript/29097/annotation/52","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SHENKER:  There were, they were all men sopranos.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Male sopranos.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003e\tSHENKER:  Male sopranos.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Which is really falsetto singing.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eSHENKER:  Right.  That’s right.  They sing….  But they sang so strong sometimes, that you didn’t think, you didn’t believe it was a falsetto.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Yeah, I know that.  You know, as late as 1964 or ’65 — I’ll say ’65 — there was still a male — one male soprano — singing at Shaare Zedek.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003e\tSHENKER:  Yes?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  On 93rd Street.  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eBut the thing is, there must have been.  Because in Europe, I think, the boys sang soprano and alto, 50-50.  So for some reason, nobody was training boys to sing soprano here.  I don’t know.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736#t=965.0,995.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736/transcript/29097/annotation/53","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SHENKER:  I don’t know.  I can’t answer that question.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Anyway, so what kind of, did you sing mostly, do you remember?  It was mostly Weiser’s repertory?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003e\tSHENKER:  It was Weiser’s repertory, yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  His compositions.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eSHENKER:  His compositions.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Did he sing other people’s stuff?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003e\tSHENKER:  Well, he sang Zaidel Rovner, once in a while.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Melekh.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003e\tSHENKER:  Melekh was Zaidel Rovner’s, because that’s the famous…","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736#t=995.0,1010.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736/transcript/29097/annotation/54","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"LEVIN:  (Sings it)\u003cbr\u003e\tSHENKER:  Yeah.  Alter pialter.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Was that your solo?  In the duet?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003e\tSHENKER:  No.  I, I would sing towards the end (sings).\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Do you think that Rovner really wrote that?  Made up that tune?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736#t=1010.0,1029.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736/transcript/29097/annotation/55","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSHENKER:\u003c/strong\u003e I want to tell you something.  Something about that piece.  It’s a very interesting, I mean, that we had — it’s, it’s very interesting, because it has a shannes to me.  The same piece is used in Modzitz for, for a piece in Hayom Piyyus Goshen Mi Mu Aron-ha Kodesh.  The end part of Hayom Piyyus.  And however it made, made Modzitz, I don’t know.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003e\tAnd not because Zaidel Rovner was a contemporary of the, of the first Modzitzer Rebbe.  I mean, actually, what, what are the years was Zaidel, what, what years was Zaidel Rovner actually active?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736#t=1029.0,1064.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736/transcript/29097/annotation/56","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SEROTA:  1860 to 1944, I think.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003e\tSHENKER:  Right.  That, that was his, that was when he lived.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eSEROTA:  Right.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003e\tSHENKER:  All right.  Now, when did he, when did he actually sing?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eSEROTA:  He started writing in the 1890s.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003e\tSHENKER:  Right.  All right.  So there, that was the time that the, that the first Modzitzer Rebbe, the Modzitzer, we came in 1887 to 1920, right?  So, it was the same time…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eSEROTA:  Right.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736#t=1064.0,1082.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736/transcript/29097/annotation/57","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SHENKER:  And yet, the Modzitzer Rebbe used this in his repertoire.  And it’s very hard to believe that he, he used someone that was a contemporary of his, who probably never knew, I’m sure.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003e\tZaidel, Zaidel Rovner was in, was in Bessarabia, and he was in…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Well, except that Rovner traveled around a lot.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736#t=1082.0,1099.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736/transcript/29097/annotation/58","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SHENKER:  Yeah, but did he ever come to Poland?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Sure.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eSHENKER:  Yeah?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  In fact, he was…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003e\tSHENKER:  But I, I have a suspicion…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  He was born in Poland.  In Russian Poland.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eSHENKER:  Yeah.  So I have a suspicion that this was, comes from the, from an earlier period.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Probably.  Most of Rovner’s melodies come from an earlier period.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736#t=1099.0,1112.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736/transcript/29097/annotation/59","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SHENKER:  Really?  I mean, why?  He used other people’s stuff?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Almost always.  It did not — but not consciously.  A melody.  Who knows?  You hear it in the street, you hear it when somebody hums it, it sticks in your mind, you don’t know where you heard it.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eSo Rovner he took from an opera — he didn’t even know it.  Because he looked, when he, when his wife took him to the opera for the first time, he was already, you know, with a white beard and everything.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eSHENKER:  Yes.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736#t=1112.0,1130.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736/transcript/29097/annotation/60","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"LEVIN:  David Koussevitsky told me this story.  It sounds true.  That they took him, his wife took him to the opera in Odessa.  I think they were for some reason giving a concert in Odessa.  Or not a concert — a Shabbes.  He used to travel with a choir.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003e\tSHENKER:  Yeah.  Yeah, well, he did a lot of traveling.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  So and that was, most of it was traveling.  And he heard, they did Faust, so he heard the chorus from Faust, you know.  And he looked at it — he was shocked.  He says, “They stole my melody.”  Because he heard somewhere a similar melody.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736#t=1130.0,1154.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736/transcript/29097/annotation/61","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Sure, they all did.  Not consciously, the way, the way that, you know, certain Hassidists talks about…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003e\tSHENKER:  Actually…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  …about rescuing the spark.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eSHENKER:  Right, right.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  No, it’s just subconsciously, you know.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003e\tSHENKER:  From the hearing, from…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eSHENKER:  …from the air.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  It’s hard to say.  I always wondered about them.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eWhen you, the Hayom Piyyus, you’re talking about takes just the end melody or the whole thing?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003e\tSHENKER:  No.  The complete — in fact, not to, not to the very end, because that Melekh, that Melekh ha-kol they don’t use.  But the whole, the whole Zugot, the whole recitative…","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736#t=1154.0,1183.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736/transcript/29097/annotation/62","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eLEVIN:\u003c/strong\u003e Including from the bass solo?  (Sings it; Shenker joins in)","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736#t=1183.0,1257.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736/transcript/29097/annotation/63","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSHENKER:\u003c/strong\u003e When I sing this, my grandson Motte usually sings the harmony with me.  (Sings it)  You have the whole thing there. (Sings)","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736#t=1257.0,1332.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736/transcript/29097/annotation/64","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"LEVIN:  And then, and that’s how it ends.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eSHENKER:  [INAUDIBLE].\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  [INAUDIBLE].\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003e\tSHENKER:  Ach, we don’t do that.  We don’t do that.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eSEROTA:  But the amount that you already sang.  It’s too much to say that there was a, it’s not a folk melody.  It’s an artistic…","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736#t=1332.0,1348.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736/transcript/29097/annotation/65","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SHENKER:  No, that’s a, that’s sure.  There’s no doubt.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Right.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eSHENKER:  And I tell you, I should, I don’t have the Mahkzor here.  I would, I would, I would have sung it with the, the way it’s set into the words.  It’s set, it’s set in beautifully.  Even maybe even nicer than Melekh.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003e\tWhen I sing that in our shul, I would show you that people go crazy over this.  This is something, this is one of the high, one of the highlights of the davening.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eSEROTA:  But you can sing it twice.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736#t=1348.0,1370.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736/transcript/29097/annotation/66","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SHENKER:  No, I sing Hayom Piyyus, the first part I usually sing with a piece of Ezkereh.  You know that famous Ezkereh?  Until we come to Gushen.  And then Gushen, when I go into, into this piece that I have.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eSEROTA:  The second you can sing Melekh, then.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003e\tSHENKER:  Melekh we say with the nusaḥ, you see.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Well, so anyway, so your introduction started with the choir.  Now then…","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736#t=1370.0,1392.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736/transcript/29097/annotation/67","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SHENKER:  Then now, how did I get to Modzitz?  So it’s a very interesting story.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eSEROTA:  But we should mention also, we’ll put it into the record later on that you made a recording as a child.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003e\tSHENKER:  Right.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eSEROTA:  With Weiser accompanying you.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eSHENKER:  Accompanying me, it’s true.  For one of my Weiser’s songs, called Der Alter Hazzan, which you probably heard of.  I think, I think Herschmann did it, also.  Did, didn’t Herschmann do something else…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eSEROTA:  No.  But it’s a well-known song.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736#t=1392.0,1412.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736/transcript/29097/annotation/68","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SHENKER:  It was a well-known song.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eSEROTA:  Did you sing that on the radio?  That was one of your…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003e\tSHENKER:  It’s probably one of the songs I sang on the radio.  I sang a lot of not only Weiser’s stuff I did on the radio.  Because Weiser used to prepare — actually used to prepare the program with me.  So he would tell me what songs he thought were good for me to sing.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736#t=1412.0,1430.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736/transcript/29097/annotation/69","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"I would sing, let’s say, some of, in fact, the, I want to say the Yiddishe leidlach.  You know, I, things that became, like, classics.  I mean really, became, later became classics.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eSEROTA:  Did you sing hazzanas on the radio, too?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003e\tSHENKER:  I sang hazzanas, too.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eSEROTA:  Because as a child, you had a coloratura.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eSHENKER:  I had a very good coloratura, yes.  I was, that, that was — actually, I was supposed to leave the choir at least a year early.  Because my voice was, was, was going down.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736#t=1430.0,1450.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736/transcript/29097/annotation/70","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"And what Weiser used to do, he used to rewrite all the solos, because, into different keys.  Because he knew that I was not there.  I, I couldn’t do it in the original key.  Because he, he wanted to preserve the coloratura.  He wanted to have the, which he didn’t have in any, in any other kids.  They couldn’t.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736#t=1450.0,1464.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736/transcript/29097/annotation/71","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"It was something that he, that, that’s what really stuck him on me, you know, as they say.  The fact that he heard that coloratura.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eSEROTA:  Did you sing hazzanas on the radio?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003e\tSHENKER:  Yeah, I did.  I sang a lot of Weiser’s stuff, in fact.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eSEROTA:  Yeah?  Did you ever sing Rozo D’Shabbos?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003e\tSHENKER:  I don’t think so.  But I have, I have a recording of Rozo D’Shabbos that I did later.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  You did sing Rozo D’Shabbos?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003e\tSHENKER:  Yeah.  Yeah.  But I heard Pinchik himself singing it.  Did I tell you?  I think I told you that once.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eSEROTA:  How was it?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003e\tSHENKER:  Great.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736#t=1464.0,1487.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736/transcript/29097/annotation/72","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SEROTA:  Like the record, or different?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eSHENKER:  No, he sang it like the record.  I mean, I, I don’t remember him deviating, as far as I was…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eSEROTA:  Where did you hear him?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003e\tSHENKER:  It was in a Ashkenaz shul.  And I want you to know that people started actually banging at, when it came to that point, you know, before ba-meh madlikin, they started banging and saying “Rozo D’Shabbos, Rozo D’Shabbos,” until he couldn’t, he had to — he couldn’t resist.  He had to…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eSEROTA:  How did the rabbi permit this?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736#t=1487.0,1512.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736/transcript/29097/annotation/73","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SHENKER:  I don’t know if the rabbi was even there.  I think it was Rabbi Dershowitz, but I think either he was, it was after he was miphtir — left there, or it was, or when he was very old already.  So I don’t know.  Maybe he wasn’t even there, even, for all I know.  But it’s a fact.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eSEROTA:  What kind of impression did he make on the congregation?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736#t=1512.0,1528.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736/transcript/29097/annotation/74","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SHENKER:  Well, Pinchik was Pinchik.  I mean, all the shenanigans, you know.  With the tzitzit, you know, he used to sing the Kirshmei and he used to play with the tzitzit.  He’d just sing the last parasha in Kirshmei.  He used to sing that…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eSEROTA:  Which…","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736#t=1528.0,1544.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736/transcript/29097/annotation/75","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SHENKER: You have to remember that Modzitz was well-known in America, even before the war.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  How?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003e\tSHENKER:  I mean by people either, a, there may have been some Hassidim that came here.  Or there, I mean, you know, you have to remember that Modzitz was sung in all Hassidists, practically.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736#t=1544.0,1559.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736/transcript/29097/annotation/76","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eLEVIN:\u003c/strong\u003e To the Lubavitch?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736#t=1559.0,1587.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736/transcript/29097/annotation/77","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SHENKER:  Lubavitch had their own niggunim, also.  But that was not as well-known in America at that time.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  And what about the Gerer?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003e\tSHENKER:  Gerer niggunim.  See, in Poland, Gerer was not known for niggunim.  It became, that became a, something that came in later on, and that’s a solo, really.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003e\tIn Poland, there was, they said that Gerer did the, they always have their own, their own composers, their own minhagdim.  But it wasn’t that well-known.  They weren’t that, that popular, really.  Maybe among the Gerer Hassidim, but not really in the general population.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736#t=1587.0,1615.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736/transcript/29097/annotation/78","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SEROTA:  So the melodies you heard from the Rebbe…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003e\tSHENKER:  I, I’ve heard, I’ve, I, I knew of Modzitz before.  I mean, I, I knew [?] melodies that I’ve picked up through the yeshiva and people that, people, kids that came, let’s say, from Europe, and when they came to, came to yeshiva, they taught us these, these melodies.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  I see.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736#t=1615.0,1631.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736/transcript/29097/annotation/79","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SHENKER:  So I, I mean, it was, wasn’t a unknown entity, you know.  It was something I knew now.  So but, and of course, I, I was very impressed with the whole, with everything that was going on.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003e\tTwo months later, the Rebbe was invited to a shul that in fact Ganchoff was, was a hazzan there.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eSEROTA:  Southern Van Buren.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eSHENKER:  Southern Van Buren.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736#t=1631.0,1646.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736/transcript/29097/annotation/80","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"LEVIN:  Wait — before we go on.  Barry just started to ask you — what did you ask him?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eSEROTA:  Where…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Where?  You say you, that your first exposure to the Modzitzer niggunim, as far as any formal setting…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003e\tSHENKER:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  …You mean during Shakharit and Musaf, or do you mean…","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736#t=1646.0,1660.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736/transcript/29097/annotation/81","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SHENKER:  No, that was only the Tish Friday night.  I wasn’t there during Shakharit and Musaf.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003e\tLEVIN:  That’s what I wanted to know.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eSHENKER:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  It’s tough, because that…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003e\tSHENKER:  We’re talking about the Tish, Tish itself.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  You’re talking about the Tish.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eSHENKER:  Right.  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Because, well, later, we’ll talk about the business of niggunim during Musaf and, and…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eSHENKER:  Right.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  …anyway.  The whole big thing.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003e\tSHENKER:  Okay.  Now we’re talking about the Tish only.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  The Tish.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eSHENKER:  I mean, I’m the, I mean, there, there was one, like one niggun which, that became like a popular niggun in Williamsburg.  Everybody was singing it at the time.  It was, I don’t think you, you would have heard it.  But it became very, very well-known.  Everybody was singing it all over the place.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736#t=1660.0,1688.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736/transcript/29097/annotation/82","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSEROTA:\u003c/strong\u003e Pizmonim.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736#t=1688.0,1719.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736/transcript/29097/annotation/83","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SHENKER:  Pizmonim that you sing — the khai, the ha-khol Yodukha and kail adon.  And then he left.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eSEROTA:  Just a moment.  I usually daven nusaḥ Ashkenaz.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003e\tSHENKER:  Yeah.  So…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eSEROTA:  And nusaḥ Sepharad in that spot — Ha-Kol Yodukha — usually, the hazzan and the kahal alternate back and forth.  It’s a different…","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736#t=1719.0,1740.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736/transcript/29097/annotation/84","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SHENKER:  No, no, no, no.  You just, you sing the, you sing the Ha-Kol Yodukha in pieces, you know.  Whereas at, at, you sing with one part of the pizmon and the, the Kahal says it.  And then you sing in the next one and the Kahal says that, also.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003e\tSEROTA:  Because we don’t do that in Ashkenazi.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736#t=1740.0,1755.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736/transcript/29097/annotation/85","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SHENKER:  You don’t do that.  No, you’re — but you don’t sing bikhlal or anything.  But you do sing kail adon.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eSEROTA:  Kail adon, yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003e\tSHENKER:  So these, these are two things he sang.  And he left the amud at that point, and that was it.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eBut so, but Weiser told me at the time that I, “He reminds me a little bit of Nissim Belzer.”  Exactly why I don’t know.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Quite something.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736#t=1755.0,1774.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736/transcript/29097/annotation/86","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SHENKER:  At any rate, but, but Weiser was very impressed, I want you to know, with the niggunim.  Because in fact, later, of course, he did a, he did, notated a lot of stuff, also.  The Ezkor [?] was notated by Weiser.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003e\tLEVIN:  So then you went to the…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eSHENKER:  That was my, my doing, actually.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAt any rate, that Shabbes, Shabbes afternoon, after davening, they, the person that the Rebbe was staying by invited a few people to come to eat the meal there — the Shabbes meal — together with the Rebbe.  And one of them was my father.  You know, he picked out like people that have Polish extract, probably.  You know, people that, that had a little shteimels on their head.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736#t=1774.0,1809.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736/transcript/29097/annotation/87","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"And so my father told us to go home and make Kiddush with my mother, eat whatever was there, and then come back.  You know, that was the way we did it.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003e\tWhen I came back, we, there was, there was, the middle of the, the middle of the meal, and he was sitting like sort of on top of the, at the head of the table.  And in back of the table, there was like a little couch, like I’m sitting on right now.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736#t=1809.0,1826.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736/transcript/29097/annotation/88","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"And on the couch, I found a book called La Hassidim Mizmor.  That was a book by, written by Geshuri.  That was, that’s, had notations of niggunim.  And some, some of them were Modzitz, also.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736#t=1826.0,1840.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736/transcript/29097/annotation/89","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"And about, and I saw a little biography or a monograph of, of, of, of Modzitz, Bobev.  I mean, a couple of the other ones.  And as, as I was, I sat down behind the Rebbe, I started going through the book, and I started reading the, the music as I, as it came, you know, and turning pages.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003e\tAnd the Rebbe turns around all of a sudden sees a kid about 15 years old at that time, reading.  And he says, he says, he asked me, “Kin slaynin?  You, you can read?”","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736#t=1840.0,1868.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736/transcript/29097/annotation/90","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"So I said, “Yeah, a little bit.”\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHe says, “Domachai, domachai.  Let’s, let’s hear some more.”\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003e\tAnd so I kept on going, you know, one, one niggun after another.  And he, he recognized they were all his niggunim.  And so he, he was very, very happy about it, you know.  So he, of course, he, he asked me to sing.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736#t=1868.0,1885.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736/transcript/29097/annotation/91","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"At that point, he wants you share a molosh by the end of his meal.  Which I sang.  I was very nervous and I sang it, and as fast as I can, you know, just to get rid of it.  So he gave me a lesson in how you’re supposed to sing it, and you’re not supposed to sing like a choo-choo train, but like a a zaygayz — like a tick-tock, you know — tick-tock, tick-tock.  You’re not supposed to….","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736#t=1885.0,1906.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736/transcript/29097/annotation/92","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSEROTA:\u003c/strong\u003e Was there a reluctance — I know we talked about the fact that they had niggunim transcribed in 1940…","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736#t=1906.0,1922.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736/transcript/29097/annotation/93","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SHENKER:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eSEROTA:  …when there was a danger that everybody…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eSHENKER:  It was all being forgotten, you’re right.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eSEROTA:  Right.  But the question is, was there a reluctance to have these niggunim transcribed before, and for any specific reason?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003e\tSHENKER:  Definitely.  The, the reason I, I don’t know the exact reason for it, but I, anything that was sort of a new innovation was considered sort of under their suspicion, you know.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eSEROTA:  This is like Torah she’be al’peh.  They didn’t want it to be written…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003e\tSHENKER:  Right.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eSEROTA:  …until…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eSHENKER:  Possibly.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eSEROTA:  …there was a time of danger.  Then they had to, have to write it down.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736#t=1922.0,1947.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736/transcript/29097/annotation/94","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SHENKER:  Right.  Right, well, that’s actually what, the reason.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Well, yeah.  But there are other reasons.  You see, some communities don’t…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003e\tSHENKER:  I don’t know.  I, I can see that the, the, the Rebbe was not opposed to it, even before.  Because here and there, you’ll find in publications niggunim that there’s, there was a, I’m sure you’ve seen this once.  The Vilna Pincus.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736#t=1947.0,1966.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736/transcript/29097/annotation/95","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"LEVIN:  Yeah, sure.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eSHENKER:  Yeah.  That has…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  And he went…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003e\tSHENKER:  That has Modzitz niggunim in it.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  That’s Gershstein, yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eSHENKER:  Gershstein.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  But he went to the people — laymen in the community…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003e\tSHENKER:  Yeah, and he’d pick them up, I guess, with…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  …with phones and pick it out.  But it’s not only Hassidisse.  All kinds of…","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736#t=1966.0,1977.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736/transcript/29097/annotation/96","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SHENKER:  Yeah.  It has all kinds of….  But they…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Other things and…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eSHENKER:  …they also have Modzitz there, also.  They have…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  I remember.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003e\tSHENKER:  Yeah, definitely, sure.  I, I…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  There’s not much.  That’s the only one…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eSHENKER:  Yeah, but I, but I, I can, in a, in a formal way, to have it really put down in a….","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736#t=1977.0,1992.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736/transcript/29097/annotation/97","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"And it was a, it was a mistake, of course.  There’s no doubt about it.  Because you know how many hundreds of niggunim that went lost?  I mean, the — I pick up niggunim now from people — I mean, it’s, it’s already second or third generation already, you know.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003e\tBut I, I pick up niggunim that I’ve never heard before that I, I know definitely that are Modzitz, because I can, I can detect a style, you know.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Well, there are, see there’s a difference, for example, if you’re talking about that Persian Jews.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003e\tSHENKER:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  There was a certain tradition there.  They don’t want anyone to copy it down. It’s for a different reason.  That they don’t, they don’t want it to be known outside their own community.  They’re not even comfortable…","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736#t=1992.0,2027.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736/transcript/29097/annotation/98","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SHENKER:  Yeah, that probably was, yeah, that, that may have been the same reason why they didn’t do it by my Hassidim, also.  They didn’t want it to come out into the street.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003e\tThey, they, very, many of these niggunim took a, sort of wound up in the theaters and in operas, and they, and they didn’t want it there.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  See, if you go back in the, say, in the ‘70s, the ‘80s, the ‘60s, ‘70s, ‘50s, and you would find the, let’s say, Persian.  That’s one example that I know for sure.  A Persian Jew who knew all the mikhamot.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736#t=2027.0,2055.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736/transcript/29097/annotation/99","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SHENKER:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  And you know, different for each Shabbes or Makam Egel and Makam….  It’s a very complicated thing.  It takes three hours in the morning.  And if you want it before davening.  And if you, or inserted it into the davening, too.  In the way that piyyutim would be.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAnd if you would ask and say, “Look.  I’ll, sit down with me, preserve it for history.  Let’s, sing me all you know.”\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAnd they wouldn’t — not only wouldn’t they do it, they wouldn’t be, it wasn’t a question they didn’t want to do it, because they weren’t looking for money.  The thing is, it had nothing to do with it.  If they were abiding by that kind of unwritten rule, they wouldn’t do it.  You can come to shul on Shabbes day, though, and hear it.  But…","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736#t=2055.0,2097.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736/transcript/29097/annotation/100","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SHENKER:  But they wouldn’t do it.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  It’s like, it’s ours, it’s Persian, we’re not interested in having it…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003e\tSHENKER:  Having it spread around.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  But I think it’s a little different reason than…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003e\tSHENKER:  No, that, it’s right.  It could be there’s really the, the, it’s the same, the shorash is the same.  I mean, they have, I mean they didn’t, didn’t want this to, to become sort of…","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736#t=2097.0,2116.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736/transcript/29097/annotation/101","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eLEVIN:\u003c/strong\u003e Well, supposing for — I’ll give you a better example.  Supposing somebody — I mean, this is all guesswork.  But supposing in those days there was, you had something like now, with the year of scholarship and grants and all that.  And supposing a foundation or the government or NEH or whatever had come to the Modzitzer Rebbe and said, “Look.  We’re going to spend a million dollars.  We’re going to hire musicologists to write down all your tunes.  And it will be published in a book — a scholarly book — about the Hassidic niggunim of Modzitz.”\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eWould he have objected?  Or would they, would there have been a rejection?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736#t=2116.0,2148.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736/transcript/29097/annotation/102","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SHENKER:  It’s very hard for me to second-guess what he would do.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  See, the Persians would have objected.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003e\tSHENKER:  Yes.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  They would say no, no, no, we don’t want…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eSHENKER:  We don’t want to do it.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  …to do it, what we don’t want.  But…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003e\tSHENKER:  I have a feeling that, well, maybe I shouldn’t say.  But if the present Rebbe is also in that respect very much of a khonoyer, I think, in that respect.  He, he doesn’t want it to be brought out into the…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  But on the other hand, that would defeat the purpose of…","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736#t=2148.0,2172.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736/transcript/29097/annotation/103","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SHENKER:  Well, it’s true.  I mean…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  …of attracting people to Hassidisse.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eSHENKER:  Well…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Of attracting, of sharing these…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003e\tSHENKER:  …it, it has its, but it also has its kesroygetz, I imagine, right?  As everything else has.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eSEROTA:  If I were to call up Hazzan Idelsohn and ask him about the niggunim of his father, would he be able to give me niggunim that no one else has notated?  Do you think that’s within the realm of possibility?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003e\tSHENKER:  That’s a good question.  I really don’t know what his situation is.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eSEROTA:  Were there niggunim from his father that…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003e\tSHENKER:  There definitely, though I am sure he should remember as a child.  He should remember whatever his father…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eSEROTA:  I mean, are there a lot of niggunim of his father that we have notations of?  Are there a lot of…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003e\tSHENKER:  There are very few that are notated.  Very few.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eBut, but he did compose a lot of niggunim, I know.  I mean, only, the only niggunim that have, have survived, really, are those that we sing in our, in, among our people.  Because his niggunim are sung, whether it’s in Israel or in Flatbush.  But they are being sung.  I mean, I sing them very often, also.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  After this experience with Weiser, with the second, with the Van Buren Shul…","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736#t=2172.0,2235.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736/transcript/29097/annotation/104","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SHENKER:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  …then how did you…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eSHENKER:  I became very close.  I mean, what that means, I, I would go to, to Tish almost every, every Motza’ei Shabbat.  I would go to the Melaveh Malkah, you know, and I became like sort of a…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003e\tLEVIN:  A groupie.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eSHENKER:  A groupie, that’s right.  That’s the word to use.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eSEROTA:  But basically, you heard him sing niggunim for a Melaveh Malkah, for Motza’ei Shabbat.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003e\tSHENKER:  Right.  Sure.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  But then, did you start to go to daven Shakharit and Musaf?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736#t=2235.0,2258.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736/transcript/29097/annotation/105","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SHENKER:  Yeah.  Well, I used to go there for Rosh Hashanah and Yom Kippur.  I, we didn’t, we, we lived in, in Bedford-Stuyvesant, then in Crown Heights.  I would walk, you would believe this, at this, after the second Seder, which we, we finished my, in my parents’ house at about twelve thirty, one o’clock, I would first walk to Williamsburg, to the Rebbe’s Seder, you know.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  And he’d be going on till three.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eSHENKER:  He’d be going till about four o’clock in the morning.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736#t=2258.0,2279.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736/transcript/29097/annotation/106","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"LEVIN:  Right.  On second Seder.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eSHENKER:  Yes.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  And only then.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003e\tSHENKER:  So there, I mean, and I would walk every Shabbes to Shaleshudes, every Shabbes, for about an hour.  That would be my, and this, it went on for a couple years, you know, and just…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  But what, and what about the davening itself?  When did you…","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736#t=2279.0,2296.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736/transcript/29097/annotation/107","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SHENKER:  The davening itself — well, I said Rosh Hashanah and Yom Kippur I would daven, of course, in the Rebbe, by the Rebbe.  During the year, during Yomtovim, once in a while.  I mean, I, it was a question of, actually, of, of putting myself up there and everything else that was there.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Yeah, yeah.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736#t=2296.0,2311.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736/transcript/29097/annotation/108","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SHENKER:  But I would be there during the year, also.  But not, not in, not on a, every Shabbes basis, you know.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  And then eventually, he asked you to notate his melodies?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eSHENKER:  Yes.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  How did that happen?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736#t=2311.0,2325.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736/transcript/29097/annotation/109","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SHENKER:  But that, that, it was after, it took a couple of years before I was, I was, became privy to that.  I would say, like, maybe around — well, you have to remember also that within a couple of years, my brother became a son-in-law there.  My, my older brother, the one you see in that picture, is a son-in-law of the Modzitzer Rebbe.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Well, that helps.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003e\tSHENKER:  That helped a lot, yeah.  Now that, then it would became like sort of, part of the family.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eSEROTA:  Did, you were doing any notations while Weiser was still alive?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736#t=2325.0,2349.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736/transcript/29097/annotation/110","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SHENKER:  Definitely.  Sure.  I, but I, I brought Weiser down to do the, a lot of notations.  He, I mean, all those, those things, those pieces that he has in his books were all done, I mean…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  But during those years that the Rebbe was here…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003e\tSHENKER:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  …and you began to notate for him, were, these were things that he brought from Europe?  And did he continue making melodies?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eSHENKER:  Well, no.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Other people’s…","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736#t=2349.0,2372.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736/transcript/29097/annotation/111","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SHENKER:  Well, there, there was a distinction.  He, he had many of his stuff, most of his stuff was from Europe.  There’s no doubt about that.  He used to the, the stuff that he sang were mostly the, those that he made in Europe.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003e\tBut and for the first, I would say, the first two years, he, he was not in a position to compose anything.  He was, he was completely, I mean, the situation there, where he left children in Europe at the time.  And he was — his whole matzav ruach, his whole, it was. was very poor.  I mean, he was not in the, in the mood.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  He had children that didn’t come back.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eSHENKER:  That never came back, no.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736#t=2372.0,2404.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736/transcript/29097/annotation/112","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"LEVIN:  They were murdered by the Germans.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eSHENKER:  Yeah, right.  There were children and grandchildren, actually, yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  His wife came back…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003e\tSHENKER:  Well, he had, his wife was with him.  And his younger children were with him, also.  But the older children, they, they were, that, that had families on their own, those, those were left.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736#t=2404.0,2418.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736/transcript/29097/annotation/113","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eLEVIN:\u003c/strong\u003e Do you remember what that was?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736#t=2418.0,2433.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736/transcript/29097/annotation/114","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SHENKER:  If I remember what it was?  Yeah, sure.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  [INAUDIBLE].\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eSHENKER:  Oh, sure.  The, I don’t know if you would, you would recognize it.  I, I doubt if you would.  But there are, there’s, they were like dance melodies.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003e\tIn fact, he, when he started composing, he did, did a few at a time, you know.  He had a wedding, he was like two or three, four or five, you know, and it was — there was no, no end to it, you know.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736#t=2433.0,2454.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736/transcript/29097/annotation/115","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"And he, and he married off, between ’43 and ’46, he married off, I think, four children.  So there was constant….\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003e\tAnd then, of course, he used to, there were a lot of compositions that he composed also that were really relevant to the situation.  The, the news that was coming from Europe and everything else.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736#t=2454.0,2481.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736/transcript/29097/annotation/116","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eLEVIN:\u003c/strong\u003e Did you record all those?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736#t=2481.0,2496.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736/transcript/29097/annotation/117","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SHENKER:  Not all of them.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Not all.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eSHENKER:  No.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Well, that’s, then let’s talk about which ones you didn’t record.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003e\tSHENKER:  Uh-huh.  There were quite a few that I didn’t record.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Yeah.  Now when you recorded them, but they were notated.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003e\tSHENKER:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  You’d notated…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eSHENKER:  I’d notated them.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  So we could record them.  Because we…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003e\tSHENKER:  Definitely.  Sure.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Why not?  Let me ask you this.  The question is let’s assume we were going to record, or the way you recorded, you recorded, in the context of the way that they were sung in the Rebbe’s presence, would mean just with the, just the men singing.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003e\tSHENKER:  Yes.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Without any instruments, right?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736#t=2496.0,2530.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736/transcript/29097/annotation/118","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SHENKER:  Well, of course.  Well, unless you had a, a dance melody at a, at a wedding.  Which he did have [INAUDIBLE].\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  But that’s something else.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eSHENKER:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  But like…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003e\tSHENKER:  But the, these things that were, were, he composed, yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Even, it’s not a question of, I’m not talking about Shabbes or something, whatever.  But what they sung on a Wednesday.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736#t=2530.0,2546.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736/transcript/29097/annotation/119","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SHENKER:  Well, they would do — it was usually sung by a, at Tish, actually.  When we, you had no, no instruments.  I mean…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  But if it would be sung on a, for some reason, on a Tuesday night, for whatever reason.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eSEROTA:  Let’s say, a Melaveh Malkah Saturday night.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003e\tSHENKER:  Yeah.  Well, it’s possible that you would have…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  It’s possible also that they didn’t, did they?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736#t=2546.0,2562.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736/transcript/29097/annotation/120","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SHENKER:  They didn’t, because there was a, that they didn’t think it was necessary.  I mean, the…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eSEROTA:  Or when you sang the Ezkerah.  You sang the Ezkerah on…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003e\tSHENKER:  I sang Ezkerah on the Yahrzeit with, without any instrumentation at all.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  So the authentic sound is really the men just singing.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736#t=2562.0,2574.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736/transcript/29097/annotation/121","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SHENKER:  Sure.  That’s…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  And we could, can that sound be reproduced, do you think, by professional singers?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003e\tSHENKER:  They’ll never have the same flavor.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  How many…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eSHENKER:  I have, on my recording, I have professional singers.  I mean, we tried to get the flavor.  And Velvel Pasternak, they, he took together a group of hazzanim.  I mean.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eSEROTA:  When did you make the first of the Modzitzer recordings?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736#t=2574.0,2593.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736/transcript/29097/annotation/122","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SHENKER:  1956.  \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  How did that come about?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003e\tSHENKER:  Interesting.  We used to have a shteibl in Crown Heights.  A Modzitzer shteibl.  And there was a gentleman that used to come in almost every Shabbes to Shaleshudes.  And I know that Barry knows who I mean, I’m talking about.  This was Stambler.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eSEROTA:  Benedict Stambler.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736#t=2593.0,2615.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736/transcript/29097/annotation/123","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SHENKER:  Benedict Stambler.  He used to come together with somebody else by the name of Fabricant.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eSEROTA:  Leib Fabricant?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003e\tSHENKER:  Not Leib Fabricant.  There was somebody talking, this Fabricant that he used to come with was, was a musician, also.  I mean, not a, not a trained musician, but he, I think that he had, he was in choirs and well.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736#t=2615.0,2630.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736/transcript/29097/annotation/124","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"They, they’re, they were both neighbors on Crown Street.  And they used to just come in as guests, you know, and as observers.  And they would come, let’s say, for about five, six Shabbosim.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003e\tAnd then one time, one, maybe I, I remember after one, after one Ma’ariv, they came over to me.  And they said, they asked me would I be interested in, in recording some of the melodies that I sing at Shaleshudes or….","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736#t=2630.0,2662.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736/transcript/29097/annotation/125","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"So I said, “Who are you?”\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eThey said, “You do some songs.  We’re actually neighbors here.  We, one fellow’s name is Stambler; one fellow’s name is Fabricant.  We happen to like this very much.  We feel this is something that really should be, come out to the, to the public.  I mean, because it’s, this just being lost here just between yourselves.”","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736#t=2662.0,2679.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736/transcript/29097/annotation/126","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSEROTA:\u003c/strong\u003e So this was before Collector’s Guild?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736#t=2679.0,2692.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736/transcript/29097/annotation/127","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SHENKER:  Before Collector’s Guild, right.  I mean, he, he was involved in some recordings.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eSEROTA:  Because his wife had produced some educational…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003e\tSHENKER:  Educational recordings.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eSEROTA:  …recordings in the early ‘50s.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eSHENKER:  Yeah.  Well, we’re talking about, this is…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eSEROTA:  This started in ’55, now.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736#t=2692.0,2704.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736/transcript/29097/annotation/128","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSHENKER:\u003c/strong\u003e ’55, right.  Because we recorded in ’56, so this happened in ’55.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eSo obviously, he had some knowledge of the recording industry and how to go about it and so forth.  So I listened, and I mean, the first time, second time we, we spoke about it many times.  Until we started thinking a little more seriously about it.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736#t=2704.0,2722.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736/transcript/29097/annotation/129","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"There was nothing under, in the market at the time.  Nothing in the field in Hassidic music, as far as I know.  There was something they put out you probably know also about, called Chofetz Chaim Yeshiva, at the time, put out sort of a yeshiva melodies, it was called, I think.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eSEROTA:  Called Chofetz Chaim…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003e\tSHENKER:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eSEROTA:  There was a record on a company called Aleph.  Called Chofetz Chaim Yeshiva Melodies.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736#t=2722.0,2744.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736/transcript/29097/annotation/130","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SHENKER:  Yeshiva Melodies.  Probably it’s also around ’54, ’55, not in…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eSEROTA:  Around there, yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003e\tSHENKER:  Yeah.  So that was the only thing really that had any kind of semblance to — because they, they used some Hassidic music, also.  There was stuff that was popular, like you know, Hinei Ma Tov Umanayim.  You know, you have (sings it).  I mean, those, those kinds of melodies are…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eSEROTA:  But there weren’t any recordings of real Hassidim singing…","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736#t=2744.0,2765.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736/transcript/29097/annotation/131","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SHENKER:  No, no.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eSEROTA:  …Hassidic melodies.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eSHENKER:  These are boys that got together as a group.  And they, they would like a choir their own.  I think that Macy Nulman must have had something to do with it also, at the time.  Because he did, he went to, to the yeshiva there.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eSEROTA:  I think the group that was doing those yeshiva melodies was directed by his brother.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736#t=2765.0,2782.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736/transcript/29097/annotation/132","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SHENKER:  Yes.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eSEROTA:  Louis Nulman.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eSHENKER:  Louis Nulman.  Right.  You’re right.  Yeah.  So that was the only thing that was out.  So we knew about that.  But nothing in real, something that taking a Hassidic melody and….  And Stambler started pushing us, you know, you know.  It took a little time until he convinced us.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736#t=2782.0,2799.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736/transcript/29097/annotation/133","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"And then, as we got together a group of our own people at 12, a — young fellows.  I mean, some of them were, most of us were married already.  A few boys.  Younger and adolescent boys.  Nice voices.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736#t=2799.0,2813.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736/transcript/29097/annotation/134","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSEROTA:\u003c/strong\u003e Who was Elliot Birnbaum?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736#t=2813.0,2844.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736/transcript/29097/annotation/135","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSHENKER:\u003c/strong\u003e Elliot Birnbaum was somebody that Stambler brought in.  He was a, he was a young fellow.  He was — well, actually, he was a young boy at the time.  He wasn’t married yet.  And he had musical training.  He played the piano very well.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736#t=2844.0,2862.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736/transcript/29097/annotation/136","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSEROTA:\u003c/strong\u003e And he rehearsed you?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736#t=2862.0,2878.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736/transcript/29097/annotation/137","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SHENKER:  And he, he, he did the rehearsing with us, yes.  We did it first on our own.  Stambler brought him when we were getting a little more serious.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003e\tFirst, we did it on our own.  Then he came in, to sort of, you know, to polish it up a little bit.  You know, to make it sound a little more professional.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eSEROTA:  Did you sing the melodies in unison or two parts?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736#t=2878.0,2897.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736/transcript/29097/annotation/138","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SHENKER:  Well, we did a lot of — mostly two parts.  It was two parts.  He had another fellow by the name of Rothgarber involved, also.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eSEROTA:  Herbert Rothgarber?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003e\tSHENKER:  Herbert Rothgarber.  He did, I think he played the piano, whereas Elliot just led us.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eElliot, you know, passed away while, while we were doing the second recording.  You know, it’s he…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eSEROTA:  The Shalosh Regalim.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736#t=2897.0,2917.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736/transcript/29097/annotation/139","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SHENKER:  The Shalosh Regalim.  He, and Rothgarber took over whatever was left to do.  At any rate, that was 1956.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAnd we, we went to a studio.  He, Stambler brought us into a studio and it was just, very, very, on a very, on a shoestring, really.  Because we had our own singers, our own soloists and a pianist.  Which was Rothgarber, really.  It was….\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003e\tLEVIN:  It was just a piano?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eSHENKER:  Just a piano, yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Why did you do it with piano instead of singing it…","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736#t=2917.0,2949.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736/transcript/29097/annotation/140","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SHENKER:  Instead of singing it by itself?  We felt that the, you have to have, well, that’s just a decision we made at the time, which it’s, we felt that, that the only way to be able to present it in a commercial way.  I mean, I have, for a, for a commercial audience, you just, we just got there and sang, without any kind of accompaniment — you know, it’s a loser.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  But ordinarily, a Melaveh Malkah, it wouldn’t have been done with piano.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736#t=2949.0,2972.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736/transcript/29097/annotation/141","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SHENKER:  What?  Well, it could have been done with piano.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Well, it could have, but it wouldn’t.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eSHENKER:  It wouldn’t have been done.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Correct?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003e\tSHENKER:  …normally, wouldn’t have been done.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eSEROTA:  But the Melaveh Malkah people are not sitting and listening to the niggunim.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  I understand what…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eSEROTA:  They themselves are singing.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  I understand.  I’m only asking.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003e\tSHENKER:  Yeah.  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  And then from this recording…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eSHENKER:  Well, the recording became very, very popular.  I mean, it was, sold very well.  And there was, there was very little on the market at the time.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eSEROTA:  How many copies do you think it sold?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736#t=2972.0,2997.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736/transcript/29097/annotation/142","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SHENKER:  It’s very hard for me to say.  Because I, I don’t have any figures in front of me.  But I, I would say, after all the years — I mean, it’s still running to this very day.  We have it on cassette.  We never put it on CD.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eSEROTA:  I remember Stambler telling to me, as of the late 1960s…","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736#t=2997.0,3010.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736/transcript/29097/annotation/143","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SHENKER:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eSEROTA:  …which would be, let’s say, about ten years after it came out…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eSHENKER:  Right.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eSEROTA:  He said that something like 100,000 copies were sold in the ten-inch LP format.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736#t=3010.0,3017.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736/transcript/29097/annotation/144","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SHENKER:  That’s a little exaggeration. I would say that all around, maybe 50, 60 thousand copies in all different forms. We revised it later, you know, we did, we added orchestra to it also. There was a revision.\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN: That’s right. That’s right.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eSHENKER: From the 10 inch we made it to 12\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN: But you didn’t rerecord the singing.\u003cbr\u003eSHENKER: No, no. We did some new pieces completely.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN: Nice\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eSHENKER:  I mean, we made it into a new record.  We used some old, some of the old…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Who made the orchestrations?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736#t=3017.0,3042.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736/transcript/29097/annotation/145","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SHENKER:  Vladimir Heifetz.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Yeah?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eSHENKER:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  And the, do you have those?  Are those available?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003e\tSHENKER:  Yeah.  I…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  You have them?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eSHENKER:  I have the orchestrations.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eSEROTA:  They’re in the basement.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003e\tSHENKER:  The basement.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eSHENKER:  I mean, he’s hoping that the flood didn’t kill it, didn’t ruin it, but…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Right.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eSEROTA:  Anyway, we didn’t get, we passed the Melaveh Malkah.  Now the second record was…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003e\tSHENKER:  Was the Shalosh Regalim.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eSEROTA:  Right.  How did you decide on Shalosh Regalim?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eSHENKER:  Why we did we decide on Shalosh Regalim?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eSEROTA:  Yeah.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736#t=3042.0,3060.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736/transcript/29097/annotation/146","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"LEVIN:  Or it’s just…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eSHENKER:  I mean, it’s…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  …no reason.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003e\tSHENKER:  …we had to pick something that would be, that you have an abundance of, of, of…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Now when you say Shalosh Regalim, this is very important.  These are niggunim for Shalosh Regalim, but done when?  When in Shalosh Regalim are they done?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736#t=3060.0,3073.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736/transcript/29097/annotation/147","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SHENKER:  Well, there is a lot of Hallel there.  There was a, we did a…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  But it was done at the amud.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003e\tSHENKER:  At the amud, sure.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  At the amud.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eSHENKER:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  So now we’re talking about niggunim from shul.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003e\tSHENKER:  Sure.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eSEROTA:  So the Betzeit Yisroel, you would do it in…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eSHENKER:  Betzeis Yisroel we would do it in shul, sure.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eSEROTA:  Hodu…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003e\tSHENKER:  Hodu we do it in shul.  And so was Avitkha and so was Anashama She’ina, and you go right, right, right through the whole repertoire.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eSEROTA:  And Tal…","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736#t=3073.0,3092.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736/transcript/29097/annotation/148","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SHENKER:  I had Tal there, sure.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eTal was something, I don’t sing it too often, now.  I, I sing, always sing other things.  But we have to go back to it, I guess.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Now all in all, how many recordings have you done?  About.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736#t=3092.0,3103.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736/transcript/29097/annotation/149","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SHENKER:  Well I, I, the truth of the matter is, we’ve, see, with the later recordings that we’ve done now, are not new.  They’re, they’re re, re…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Cycled\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eSHENKER:  Recycled.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Okay.  But not including them.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eSHENKER:  So I would say we did, original recordings, I think there are 12 or 13.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eSEROTA:  The first two, the Melaveh Malkah and the Shalosh Regalim are Modzitzer niggunim.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736#t=3103.0,3120.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736/transcript/29097/annotation/150","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SHENKER:  All Modzitzer.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eSEROTA:  Written by the rabbis of Modzitz.  And I think…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eSHENKER:  Except Melaveh Malkah has one of mine.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eSEROTA:  One of yours.  And…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003e\tSHENKER:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eSEROTA:  …and the Shalosh Regalim has an arrangement of the Tal by Zalus.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736#t=3120.0,3130.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736/transcript/29097/annotation/151","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SHENKER:   Yes, by Zalus, right.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eSEROTA:  Why did you have an arrangement made of that?\u003cbr\u003eSHENKER:  Again, we wanted to present it in a commercial form.  We, and we, we felt that, that it was too complicated a piece for just…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  But it’s the same thing, look.  Well, you could ask the same question.  I’m playing, I’m asking…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003e\tSHENKER:  Yeah.  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  For example, it’s changed today.  First of all, it’s different today.  A little bit.  Not completely.  Because there is an interest in ethnomusicology.  There wasn’t such a thing in the fifties.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNumber two, even today, supposing — Yiddish folk songs.  Take Yiddish folk songs.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eSHENKER:  Yeah.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736#t=3130.0,3157.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736/transcript/29097/annotation/152","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"LEVIN:  Now if you do a recording of lullabies, who is going to have the guts to put it out, even today, unless it’s for some ethnomusicological purpose, without accompaniment?  And yet…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eSEROTA:  Ruth Rubin.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Okay.  But…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eSEROTA:  She’s the only one.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  And yet people…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003e\tSHENKER:  She had no accompaniment on the…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eSEROTA:  She made a whole series of Yiddish recordings of songs without any accompaniment.  She says when a mother sings that to a child, there’s no accompaniment.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Right.  If you want the authentic style.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eWhen, look — when a cowboy sang cowboy songs, which is authentic Americana, too, if they are authentic songs in the West, he sang with a guitar.  That’s part of the sound.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736#t=3157.0,3190.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736/transcript/29097/annotation/153","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"But when a mother sang — or a father — the Yiddish lullabies, obviously, they wouldn’t have an instrument.  They sang.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eBut if you put it out on a recording, very few people would want to put it out without some accompaniment.  That’s true.  So I’m just — the same with Ladino ballads.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736#t=3190.0,3204.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736/transcript/29097/annotation/154","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SHENKER:  Right.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Same thing.  Any of this.  I’m just asking to get the context.  But if so, all in all, about 12, 13 recordings?\u003cbr\u003eSHENKER:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eSEROTA:  And the third of the LPs was different than the first two.  Because the third basically features your own music.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736#t=3204.0,3207.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736/transcript/29097/annotation/155","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SHENKER:  Yes.  Yes.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  That’s what I was going to get to.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eSHENKER:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  When did you start…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eSHENKER:  With my own?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  …your own.  I mean, you started to create…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eSHENKER:  Well, to create music.  Well, I, see I…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  …to actually write it down as a composer?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eSHENKER:  Right.  I, you know, I had, I brought along my, my own compositions.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eSEROTA:  Your magnum opus?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736#t=3207.0,3232.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736/transcript/29097/annotation/156","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SHENKER:  It’s called…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  These are the notations of your own music?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eSHENKER:  It’s my own stuff, yeah.  Now, you see, take a look at the, at the, at the opening there.  You see, you see what years they, they encompass.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eSEROTA:  The first LP that’s basically your music is the L’kovid Shabbes, right?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736#t=3232.0,3244.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736/transcript/29097/annotation/157","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SHENKER:  Right.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eSEROTA:  That was recorded in around 1961.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eSHENKER:  1960.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eSEROTA:  1960.  And it has niggunim that are probably the most famous of your compositions.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736#t=3244.0,3255.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736/transcript/29097/annotation/158","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SHENKER:  Probably.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eSEROTA:  Mizmor l’David.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Mizmor l’David, I would say, was one of the best-known…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003e\tSHENKER:  Yes.  I just…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003e\tSEROTA:  Eishes Chayil.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  We’ll get to Eishes Chayil in a second.  But the Mizmor l’David…. (Sings it).\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003e\tSHENKER:  You know and the (sings it).\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eYou know when I, I composed that?  That was in 1946, in Eretz Yisroel.  I was visiting Eretz Yisroel in 1946.  And that’s when I, I composed it.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Now, there, if I recall….  I know.  I have it in my z’miros book, actually.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736#t=3255.0,3289.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736/transcript/29097/annotation/159","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SHENKER:  The z’miros book where you were talking about…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  My own.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003e\tSHENKER:  You, you put out a, you put out a book of z’miros?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  A long time ago.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eSHENKER:  Oh yeah?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Yeah.  1980.  It’s a history of z’miros.  So — and notations for a lot of z’miros.  And I have you.  But I mean — and you get credit — don’t worry about it.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eSHENKER:  Yeah?  Okay.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  But…","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736#t=3289.0,3306.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736/transcript/29097/annotation/160","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SHENKER:  It’s as good as cash, almost.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  But, no.  It’s a, you know, everything is notated there.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eSHENKER:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003e\tLEVIN:  But the thing is that it, I heard you sing it, I think, there, and that’s with instrumental accompaniment, wasn’t it?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eSHENKER:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003e\tLEVIN:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eSHENKER:  I brought, I had, Vladimir Heifetz wrote the, the…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Now, about Eishes Chayil.  Are you talking about the (sings it; Shenker joins in).","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736#t=3306.0,3334.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736/transcript/29097/annotation/161","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SHENKER:  You don’t sing it right.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Okay.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eSHENKER:  No, I mean that you, you, you didn’t sing the melody exactly the way it should.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  So sing it.  How does it go?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003e\tSHENKER:  (Sings it)\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Then I’m singing it the way that Stanley Sperber arranged it.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736#t=3334.0,3351.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736/transcript/29097/annotation/162","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SHENKER:  Ah, that could be.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Because he…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eSHENKER:  Stanley Sperber did a very nice arrangement of it.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Did you ever hear…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003e\tSHENKER:  I heard it.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  …the recording of the way, of Zamir singing it?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eSHENKER:  Yes.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  You must have heard it in concert.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003e\tSHENKER:  Well, he came, he once came to my house, for some reason or other.  We, we had a whole…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  But he did that whole thing on, that’s something we ought to include.  I was thinking about this the other day.  We don’t have that kind of thing in these.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eSEROTA:  Which kind of thing?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  A good thing with a good chorus doing Eishes Chayil.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736#t=3351.0,3376.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736/transcript/29097/annotation/163","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SHENKER:  Guy had a very, he did a very good arrangement of it.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  It’s very good.  But we can do much better than the one that exists.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eSEROTA:  His arrangement of the Mizmor l’David, too?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  It’s also nice.  But he did it all the time.  He had his Eishes Chayil girl that, you know — what was her name?  Her father was a famous Yiddish poet or writer.  You know what I’m talking about?  Usher Penn’s daughter.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736#t=3376.0,3391.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736/transcript/29097/annotation/164","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SHENKER:  Usher Penn had a daughter that sang for a, for a, for Sperber?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Oh, she was famous.  I mean, they used to get off the buses in Tel Aviv.  [INAUDIBLE] the Eishes Chayil.  Eileen was her name.  Eileen Penn.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736#t=3391.0,3404.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736/transcript/29097/annotation/165","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SHENKER:  Eileen Penn?  And she was, and she sang…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  When she sang the solo at Town Hall, for example…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003e\tSHENKER:  Oh.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  …and people went nuts over that.  You know, because that’s…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003e\tSHENKER:  But you know, there, there are a couple of people recorded it in Israel.  And in fact, he mentioned it the last time.  What was it?  Naomi Shemer who has, has a recording of it?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Maybe.  I’m not surprised.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736#t=3404.0,3423.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736/transcript/29097/annotation/166","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SHENKER:  I mean, I, I…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  I like the sound with a chorus.  You see, I think it’s a fantastic, even a capella.  They used to, Sperber used to do it a capella.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003e\tSHENKER:  Yeah?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Because he has the choir going the bump a tick and then (sings).  That became a well-known piece of yours.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736#t=3423.0,3439.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736/transcript/29097/annotation/167","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SHENKER:  Yes.  That also is about 45 years old.  Forty-six or 47 years old.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  What other pieces are there in that category — that really became well-known outside the Modzitzer realm, you know?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736#t=3439.0,3450.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736/transcript/29097/annotation/168","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SHENKER:  (Sings one)  Did you ever hear this?  At a Hassid, at a wedding?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Yeah, weddings.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003e\tSHENKER:  So that’s, they sing it at every wedding.  I mean, to this very day.  I mean, it’s, I was just at a wedding two weeks ago, and it’s part of the repertoire, you know.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eSEROTA:  Another question.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736#t=3450.0,3474.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736/transcript/29097/annotation/169","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SHENKER:  Yes?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eSEROTA:  After you recorded L’kovid Shabbes — and I gather that Pasternak made choral arrangements for this?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003e\tSHENKER:  Yes.  He wrote the choral arrangements.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eSEROTA:  The first two recordings, you had people from the Modzitzer shteibl that were singing in the chorus.  Correct?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eSHENKER:  That’s, that’s correct.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003e\tSEROTA:  Now on the L’kovid Shabbes, was that the case?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eSHENKER:  Right.  No.  We had only the professional.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eSEROTA:  Who were the choir singers?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736#t=3474.0,3487.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736/transcript/29097/annotation/170","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SHENKER:  They’re all, they’re all listed on the, on the original recording.  I mean, their names are all there.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003e\tAnd most of them were hazzanim that — I mean, I, I can’t think of the names right offhand, but…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eSEROTA:  Pessele Karras sang…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003e\tSHENKER:  Pessele Karras was on it, sure.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  So he could get the flavor.  But today, if you were to try to find…","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736#t=3487.0,3501.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736/transcript/29097/annotation/171","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SHENKER:  Professionals to do it — well today, I’ll tell you, it’s a different story.  You have, in Borough Park today, you have a lot, a lot of kids that, that…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  You could take Yeshiva boys.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736#t=3501.0,3511.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736/transcript/29097/annotation/172","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SHENKER:  Yeshiva boys that…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  You rehearse them and all that.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eSHENKER:  In fact, on one of my recordings, I did, I did together with my grandchildren, with my grandson Motti, who is here right now.  Was one of the, was the lead singer then on that one.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eSEROTA:  And then I want to ask you about the fourth record.  The one that Stambler used to call “the record for people who like music.”","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736#t=3511.0,3529.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736/transcript/29097/annotation/173","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SHENKER:  Oh, you mean the…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eSEROTA:   The music of Modzitz, with the Guild Chamber Orchestra…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eSHENKER:  Yes.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003e\tSEROTA:  …conducted by Raphael Adler and Richard Newman.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eSHENKER:  Right.  I had nothing to do with that record.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eSEROTA:  Do you want to tell us about it?  You don’t know anything about it?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003e\tSHENKER:  I knew a lot about it, but I had nothing to do with it, so…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eSEROTA:  All right.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736#t=3529.0,3545.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736/transcript/29097/annotation/174","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SHENKER:  And I mean, it’s, it was something that was, well, there is too much to talk about, already.  I mean, that was supposed to be done music only, of course.  But it…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eSEROTA:  There are no vocals.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736#t=3545.0,3559.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736/transcript/29097/annotation/175","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSHENKER:\u003c/strong\u003e No vocals at all.  And although today, I think it probably would have succeeded, if it was, if it was done in the right manner.  I think it, there were a lot of things that I, I felt were not done right.  But that’s something else.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736#t=3559.0,3572.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736/transcript/29097/annotation/176","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSEROTA:\u003c/strong\u003e What was wrong with the orchestral version of the Music of Modzitz?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736#t=3572.0,3597.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736/transcript/29097/annotation/177","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSHENKER:\u003c/strong\u003e Well, I’ll tell you.  To a certain extent, of course, it was a small orchestra.  It was like a chamber orchestra.  And in certain places, you need, you need a lot of percussion, you need a lot of….  If you really want to do it right.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003e\tYou want to do it as a, it sounds like a, like, like classical music.  I mean, it would require like a full orchestra.  And by doing it something halfway, you’re not accomplishing the, what you want to set out to do.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736#t=3597.0,3618.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736/transcript/29097/annotation/178","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSEROTA:\u003c/strong\u003e Who was the moving force behind this recording?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736#t=3618.0,3629.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736/transcript/29097/annotation/179","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SHENKER:  The members of the Modzitzer family.  It had to do with family members there.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  This is going to open up a whole new area here.  But what’s the difference between a niggun and draychas?  How would you explain something like that to the outside world?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736#t=3629.0,3650.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736/transcript/29097/annotation/180","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SHENKER:  A niggun — a draychas could be a niggun, too, you know.  It’s a draychas niggun.  A niggun draychas.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  But how would you define them?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003e\tSHENKER:  Well, a draychas is very, very simple explanation is it’s usually, they’re very melancholy.  It’s a, it’s something that, where you’re, you have sort of a, a conversation with, with, with the Ribbono Shel Olam, you know.  It’s a, that’s what, what, that’s what the draychas is all about.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  But from a musical point of view?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736#t=3650.0,3680.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736/transcript/29097/annotation/181","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SHENKER:  A musical point of view, and what, what usually — and it’s, you have a lot of that in Lubavitch.  You have that niggun draychas.  You have it in almost every Hassidisse, you have it.  Where you have a serious conversation.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003e\tIt’s sort of, sort of like a t'filla, actually.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  That’s what I’m getting at.  About the t'filla.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003e\tSHENKER:  It’s like a t'filla, yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  I mean…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eSEROTA:  A tehinnah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003e\tSHENKER:  A tehinnah.  Well, which is the same thing, really.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Would you say that a draychas is more, is longer, is spun out longer?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736#t=3680.0,3707.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736/transcript/29097/annotation/182","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SHENKER:  Well, usually…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  More self-contained?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eSHENKER:  It doesn’t necessarily have to be longer.  It doesn’t have to.  But you, the…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN: The longer [INAUDIBLE]…","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736#t=3707.0,3715.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736/transcript/29097/annotation/183","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSHENKER:\u003c/strong\u003e The long niggunim that — like I know in Modzitz, usually, are draychas niggunim.  That’s, that, they’re not happy niggunim, because if you say, where, you can, you can express yourself in three parts, in a happy niggun.  But you can’t express yourself in three parts when it comes to a draychas thing, because you have a lot to say.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736#t=3715.0,3732.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736/transcript/29097/annotation/184","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eLEVIN:\u003c/strong\u003e Well, that’s sort of what I mean.  In other words, it’s, it’s sort of continuous development.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736#t=3732.0,3758.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736/transcript/29097/annotation/185","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SHENKER:  Yeah, right.  So you get development.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Continuous — well, it’s what — I hate to say it, but what we say musicologically about Wagner’s influence is called “continuat.”  I forget the term in German.  But a continuous melody.  Rather than A-B, A-B…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003e\tSHENKER:  Right, right, right.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  That is…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eSHENKER:  Yeah, that’s what…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  From a structural point of view.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003e\tSHENKER:  Right.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  I mean, for example, in shul, in davening, in — well, what I’m going to say now is probably, this is probably Lubavitcher.  Correct me.  I’m not sure.  This melody.  (Sings it).","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736#t=3758.0,3793.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736/transcript/29097/annotation/186","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SHENKER:  That’s not Lubavitch.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Who…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eSHENKER:  That’s a folk melody.  I mean, it could be any, anybody’s, really.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  But a lot of different Hassidim use it?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736#t=3793.0,3801.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736/transcript/29097/annotation/187","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SHENKER:  No.  Not, not now.  I mean, I’ve heard it, but I don’t, I have never heard it around, I mean, that much.  I, I mean, why, why do you particularly…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  No.  I’m saying that you wouldn’t find the people who sing that traditionally, in the old days, anyway, at a Melavah Malkah or at the party.  Or I’ve heard people singing it at a Purim seudah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eSHENKER:  Yeah.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736#t=3801.0,3830.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736/transcript/29097/annotation/188","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"LEVIN:  They wouldn’t sing it in Ma’ariv itself.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eSHENKER:  No, no.  Well then, don’t forget that there’s a repetition of words, for one reason, for one thing.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003e\tSHENKER:  Which you, you can’t do during the actual t'filla.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Why can’t you?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003e\tSHENKER:  Why?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  What’s the history behind why you can’t, what’s the rationale behind why…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003e\tSHENKER:  We’re going into a, a different conversation.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Yes.  The conversation is important.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eSHENKER:  A pe’ah lokhen.  There is a, there’s a, there’s a problem there, you know.  It’s a repetition, it’s a…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Yeah, but where in Halakhah does it — I mean, what’s the rationale that you can’t repeat words, aside from — I’m not talking about Ha-Shem and all that.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736#t=3830.0,3852.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736/transcript/29097/annotation/189","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SHENKER:  What the rationale is?  It’s a hefsek.  It’s called, it’s called a hefsek.  I mean, I, all the hazzanim have that problem.  I mean, the…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eSEROTA:  In other words, when you heard Pinchik sing Rozo D’Shabbos 60 years ago…","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736#t=3852.0,3861.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736/transcript/29097/annotation/190","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SHENKER:  Rozo D’Shabbos, Rozo D’Shabbos he could have sung any time.  Because there’s no hefsek there.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eSEROTA:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003e\tSHENKER:  Before, before Ma’ariv.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Yeah.  I know, but let’s talk.  Let’s assume, if it’s not kevah, it doesn’t matter, is what you’re saying.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003e\tSHENKER:  No.  There, there’s a, there’s a problem when you, when you, before Shmoneh Esray, that whole, that whole part.  Before Shmoneh Esray, you can’t, you can’t repeat.  And in Shmoneh Esray, you can’t repeat, either.  But the, the…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Why can’t you?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736#t=3861.0,3883.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736/transcript/29097/annotation/191","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SHENKER:  Because of the hefsek that’s involved.  There’s a, there’s a, a very strong Halakhic problem there.  I mean…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  But is it…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003e\tSHENKER:  Most hazzanim had tried to circumvent it, somehow or other.  But you just…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  You mean…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003e\tSHENKER:  I know for a fact, I, I don’t know if you, you ever heard this.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eKoussevitzky came to Cincinnati, Ohio for a Shabbes.  And the, the rabbi of the shul was Rabbi Eliezer Silver, who was the most noted authority on Halakhah.  And he told him before, and he says, “Listen.  If you expect to repeat words, don’t daven over here,” he says.  “Because I don’t expect you, not to, to hear…”\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eSEROTA:  Why did he say that to him?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736#t=3883.0,3913.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736/transcript/29097/annotation/192","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SHENKER:  Because he knew he was going to do it.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eSEROTA:  In other words, in the Vilna Stotschule, it wasn’t a problem.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003e\tSHENKER:  I wonder.  I’m not so sure about that.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eSEROTA:  It wasn’t, because the hazzan, hazzanim repeated words…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eSHENKER:  Repeated words?  All right.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003e\tSEROTA:  In Warsaw, it wasn’t a problem.  In Krakow, it wasn’t a problem.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eSHENKER:  But Rabbi Silver felt…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eSEROTA:  In Lemberg, it wasn’t a problem.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003e\tSHENKER:  Rabbi Silver felt it was a problem.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eSEROTA:  In Cincinnati, it became a problem.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eSHENKER:  That’s a good…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Well, that’s true of a lot of things today.  We don’t have time to go into it.  It has to do with a lot of things.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736#t=3913.0,3938.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736/transcript/29097/annotation/193","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SHENKER:  Yeah.  But that’s, there’s, there’s a, there’s a lot…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  I think a lot of things…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eSEROTA:  So I asked and I said to somebody, how can it be?  What do you say (sings)?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003e\tSHENKER:  Believe me…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eSEROTA:  The whole world is singing this melody.  So one man says to me, “What we do is, the hazzan says Melekh al kol and he stops after the first…”","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736#t=3938.0,3953.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736/transcript/29097/annotation/194","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SHENKER:  And then the choir comes in.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eSEROTA:  …and the congregation repeats it.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eSHENKER:  He repeats it with the choir.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  I can still say…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003e\tSHENKER:  No, no.  And the hazzan does not, does not repeat it.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  It breaks the…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003e\tSHENKER:  No, no, no, no.  A hefsek is for the, for the, for the hazzan himself.  That’s the only hefsek there is.  It’s the hazzan that has to, that has to worry about a hefsek, really.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eSEROTA:  I mean, for example, I know…","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736#t=3953.0,3970.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736/transcript/29097/annotation/195","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SHENKER:  And don’t forget, the congregation at that point, isn’t allowed to talk out, even.  I mean, it usually, it’s be, before, between Kechi’ah Shacharit, you’re not supposed to talk out, anyway.  That’s another question.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  That’s right.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003e\tSHENKER:  So…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eSEROTA:  So you have the rabbonim that are explaining everything to us.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  But that’s…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003e\tSHENKER:  Which is another thing that I don’t understand.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  I don’t know.  But that’s a different format altogether.  I mean, there are a lot of questions about hefsek.  I mean, can you, you know, should you say — but now we’re really getting, but I mean, should you say Barukh, Barukh She’amar in the Ma’ariv?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736#t=3970.0,3998.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736/transcript/29097/annotation/196","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SHENKER:  Well, it…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  …in Ma’ariv?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eSHENKER:  In Ma’ariv, but there are, there are times when…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  In, in Hashkiveinu?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003e\tSHENKER:  …that you don’t say it, actually.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  You shouldn’t in Hashkiveinu, right?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eSHENKER:  Right.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  And everybody does it.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003e\tSHENKER:  A lot of things they say…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  I mean everybody.  Except maybe in the shteibl.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eSHENKER:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eSEROTA:  I think on Silbermintz’s recordings with Sholem Katz…","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736#t=3998.0,4012.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736/transcript/29097/annotation/197","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SHENKER:  Yeah?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eSEROTA:  …he just, the choir just hums in that spot.  There is no, they don’t say any words.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003e\tSHENKER:  Well, I, I have that problem even in my, my own davening.  But I just say with, with Meheksim, we say bim-bom, bim-bom.  You know, when it comes to — and that’s not, a bim-bom is not a hefsek, for some reason or other.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eSEROTA:  Now it’s become stylish that in certain, people sing certain melodies, let’s say, for a Mi khamokha and instead of repeating a word when they come to a phrase where they’re running short of words, people will say “ay-ay-ay.”","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736#t=4012.0,4037.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736/transcript/29097/annotation/198","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SHENKER:  Right.  That’s right.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eSEROTA:  And somehow, ay-ay-ay is not a hefsek.  But if they say the word again, that’s a hefsek.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003e\tSHENKER:  Yes.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eSEROTA:  If you look in the Boruch Schorr book…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eSHENKER:  Yeah?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eSEROTA:  He, his son published it.  He said, “We are publishing, I am publishing this in a modern style, without the use of syllables.”\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eIn other words, it was considered more modern to say the phrase over again, using a repetition of words.  I mean, the old style was to use the ay-ay-ay.  So now we’re reverting back to that.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736#t=4037.0,4062.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736/transcript/29097/annotation/199","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SHENKER:  Well, that’s what, the Hassidim use that.  That, that just, the way that’s, that’s, I mean, you can’t go, get away from it.  That’s, that’s what Hassidim do.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003e\tI mean, we, we don’t repeat the word, but you, you sing the melody.  The melody has, has some sort of expression, so it’s either ay-ay-ay or bom bim-bom or whatever.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  But getting back to the draychas issue.  So I mean, something, it does have to do with the, I’m speaking, from, using the word “complexity,” in a technical musical sense.  In other words, the complexity is 36 phrases.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736#t=4062.0,4097.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736/transcript/29097/annotation/200","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SHENKER:  But yeah, but that doesn’t have to be that way.  I mean, the draychas, you can have, you can have a draychas thing of only three or four parts, also, I mean.  I mean, we have it all over the place.  It’s, it’s a, it’s a type of song, of singing that is more in a melancholy mood.  That’s what it really amounts to.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Always?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736#t=4097.0,4112.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736/transcript/29097/annotation/201","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SHENKER:  Always.  You’ll, you’ll take any, any melody…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Would reflective mood be okay, or it has to be melancholy?  I believe melancholy.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003e\tSHENKER:  It’s more melancholy than reflective.  Well, we reflect, reflective it could, it could also be an explanation of it.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  But there are other niggunim.   Well, I’ll give you an example.  Take this one.  By the way — and I don’t know what this is.  You tell me.  I can never remember it.  But it’s a famous one.  (Sings)\u003cbr\u003eSHENKER:  That’s a Lubavitcher.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Which one is that?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003e\tSHENKER:  That’s a Lubavitch.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  It’s Lubavitch.  And I don’t know.  It has a name or something, I think, but I don’t remember.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736#t=4112.0,4145.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736/transcript/29097/annotation/202","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SHENKER:  There is a name to it.  I, they’re called Niggun Draychas, I think they call it, actually.  And…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  (Sings)  Yeah.  (Sings; Shenker joins him)  Would you consider that…","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736#t=4145.0,4157.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736/transcript/29097/annotation/203","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SHENKER:  (Sings)  It’s typical Lubavitcher.  That’s the kvechtz there, right.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Would you consider that draychas?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736#t=4157.0,4172.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736/transcript/29097/annotation/204","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SHENKER:  That’s definitely their draychas thing.  Yes.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Now another question of interest here is the word niggunim, the term niggun, niggunim, in different contexts, in different times, it meant something totally different.  And among — completely outside of Hassidim.  In the 19th, all the way up to the end of the 19th century in Germany, let’s say.  I mean, among Orthodox Jews in Germany.  And probably elsewhere in sophisticated circles in Europe.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736#t=4172.0,4209.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736/transcript/29097/annotation/205","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSEROTA:\u003c/strong\u003e In Berlin.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736#t=4209.0,4230.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736/transcript/29097/annotation/206","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"LEVIN:  In Berlin.  Very scholarly cantor.  And it is all — a hundred pages about the niggunim.  So I, and it’s all in German.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003e\tSHENKER:  Yes.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  And I started to, and I see the entire thing has to do with Torah cantillation — nothing else.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736#t=4230.0,4244.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736/transcript/29097/annotation/207","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SHENKER:  Well, the word — what does the word niggun really mean?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003e\tLEVIN:  Nobody knows.  That’s what I’m…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eSHENKER:  A melody, actually.  A melody.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  It means melody today.  To us, it means melody.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003e\tSHENKER:  Yeah.  Well, that, that’s anything, anything that has a sheiles to, a melody, can be called a niggun.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Although…","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736#t=4244.0,4257.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736/transcript/29097/annotation/208","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SHENKER:  But I mean, niggunim that can be categorized in so many different…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eSEROTA:  What’s the difference between a Hassidic niggun and a non-Hassidic niggun?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Is there such a thing?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736#t=4257.0,4266.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736/transcript/29097/annotation/209","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SHENKER:  Well, there is…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eSEROTA:  I mean, hazzanim sometimes disparagingly refer to a Litvishe niggun.  If you have a melody that’s not too good, it’s a…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003e\tSHENKER:  A Litvishe…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Because they’re not Litvishe.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eSEROTA:  No, they don’t think the Litvaks knew too much about singing.  And for that matter, most of the hazzanim were not Litvaks.  There were very few hazzanim that were Litvaks.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736#t=4266.0,4282.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736/transcript/29097/annotation/210","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SHENKER:  Yeah.  Yeah…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Well, years before.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eSHENKER:  Yeah, well they came, the Russians, I mean, we have many Russians.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eSEROTA:  From the Ukraine and so on — Bessarabia.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003e\tSHENKER:  Well, there, there we have to sometimes wonder, what did people do before Hassidisse came out?  I mean…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  That’s what I was getting at.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003e\tSHENKER:  …what, what, how, what did they do?  What did they mean by a Shabbes table?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eI’m sure they — I mean, all these different pizmonim that are written must have been sung, right?  So what, how did they sing it?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  You’re talking about z’miros?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736#t=4282.0,4305.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736/transcript/29097/annotation/211","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SHENKER:  How did — z’miros, yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Well, that’s easier to answer.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eSHENKER:  Yeah, well, how, how, how did Yisrael Negadah, who wrote Yah Ribbon, what, what did he, I mean, did he just write it or did he sing it?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  No.  Actually, he used to, except — and not in that case — that’s the one exception he picked.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eSHENKER:  Yeah.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736#t=4305.0,4317.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736/transcript/29097/annotation/212","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"LEVIN:  But in the other cases, he used to say, and it says in the, under a superscription under the title, it says, “To be sung to the tune of…” and he names some Arabic song.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eSHENKER:  Really?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736#t=4317.0,4330.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736/transcript/29097/annotation/213","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eLEVIN:\u003c/strong\u003e Which we don’t know what the song sounded like anymore.  But we know the name of it.  It is as if he would say it’s to be sung to the tune of Yankee Doodle.  This was very common then.  And they’re all Arabic songs, in the 15th century or so.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736#t=4330.0,4343.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736/transcript/29097/annotation/214","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SHENKER:  Yes.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  That were apparently very popular.  But then there are whole, you know, there are whole rabbinic treatises of the time and whole arguments going on in that time — was it kosher or not kosher to do that and to take a popular song…","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736#t=4343.0,4353.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736/transcript/29097/annotation/215","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SHENKER:  Take a…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  And that’s a whole issue that some said — this is before Hassidim — some said that it is and some that it isn’t, and so forth.  Some said it is, because if, you know that one of the rulings was it is, it’s better, because people will love that song and the words — the normal words to the song — are…","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736#t=4353.0,4367.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736/transcript/29097/annotation/216","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SHENKER:  Secular.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Well, not only secular, but it was worse.  A kind of a…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eSHENKER:  Yeah.  So, yeah.\u003cbr\u003e3LEVIN:  Frivolous, if not…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eSHENKER:  If not worse.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  [INAUDIBLE].  And this way at least, they’ll sing it…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003e\tSHENKER:  They’ll sing it to, to something that’s khodesh.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  But Yah Ribbon is an exception.  There’s no superscription there.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eSHENKER:  Yeah.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736#t=4367.0,4380.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736/transcript/29097/annotation/217","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"LEVIN:  But people did that.  Sure.  They sang them to all kinds of tunes.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eSHENKER:  In other words, so the melodies that they used were goyishe melodies.  That’s what they were trying to say?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Sure.  Or sometimes.  And sometimes based upon cantillation.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eI mean, listen.  Kol Mekadesh Shevi’i, you can look at all the Kol Mekadesh Shevi’i, including the one we looked at yesterday — before yesterday.  They’re all based on the same musical structure.  But you know, all different, but they’re all the same.  They’re all based on a (hums).","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736#t=4380.0,4407.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736/transcript/29097/annotation/218","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SHENKER:  But that’s…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  All…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eSEROTA:  Do you have Kol Mekadesh Shevi’i on a recording?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003e\tSHENKER:  I have it in the L’kovid Shabbes.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eSEROTA:  L’kovid Shabbes?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eSHENKER:  Yeah.  There I have, I have a whole choir composition.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  (Sings)","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736#t=4407.0,4417.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736/transcript/29097/annotation/219","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SHENKER:  Incidentally, I, I got, I, I wrote that probably like in ’43, probably.  So it’s, it’s one of my very, very, my very old, early compositions there.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  But that’s a good question, aside from that.  I mean, for z’miros, it’s one thing.  But for the rest of it, what did the world do?  Or what did the world do without, now without that, there were no…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eSHENKER:  Yes.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736#t=4417.0,4433.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736/transcript/29097/annotation/220","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"LEVIN:  Yiddish lullabies, Yiddish songs, I suppose.  I don’t know.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eSHENKER:  Hazzanim had, I mean, composed stuff for, I mean, that was originally, I mean, that were composed for hazzanas, right?  And but what happened to the z’miros?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Well, the z’miros, the answer is there are a dozen different categories.  And Hassidic influence in z’miros is certainly…","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736#t=4433.0,4456.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736/transcript/29097/annotation/221","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SHENKER:  Did Idelsohn, who did the, all that…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eSHENKER:  …research, did he also research the Hassidic z’miros?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Yes…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eSEROTA:  In the beginning.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  In the beginning of the volume.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736#t=4456.0,4470.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736/transcript/29097/annotation/222","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"The Rebbe — well, not only this Rebbe, but many, you know, of the Hassidic Rebbes or Hassidim in general in different dynasties in Europe, in the beginning, wrote about or talked about how they deliberately took tunes of shepherds and in bar rooms and to rescue the holy spark of a tune.  So it’s not only subconsciously or not even out of convenience, but a deliberate…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eSHENKER:  With a…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  The purpose.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736#t=4470.0,4496.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736/transcript/29097/annotation/223","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SHENKER:  It was on purpose, right.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Now, did that happen here at all?  I mean, let’s say in your own time…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003e\tSHENKER:  You mean in the 20th century?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eSHENKER:  I doubt it.  I don’t think to — well, let me tell you.  I mean, we’re talking about, now, you had to be in a certain medraigah to, the the old Kholliver[?], the Isaac Kholliver.  That’s where this all comes from.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736#t=4496.0,4515.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736/transcript/29097/annotation/224","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"He used to go out in the fields and he used to listen to the shepherds.  And he was, and he heard the shepherds singing in Hungarian or singing a love song.  And a lot of, he, but he, he, the melody was so beautiful.  And so, and he felt that this melody was just not, it was from the haykom hehina.  It wasn’t, it wasn’t stam halaya begos[?].  So, so he went and took that same melody and he, he put, put it to words that signified that he, the closest to Ha-Shem Yisroel to….","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736#t=4515.0,4544.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736/transcript/29097/annotation/225","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eLEVIN:\u003c/strong\u003e No, that was one example.  But I mean, there are a lot of Hassidic melodies that are basically, before the, even before the time of the Ba’al Shem Tov, were still, were probably Ukrainian peasant songs…","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736#t=4544.0,4565.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736/transcript/29097/annotation/226","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SHENKER:  Peasant songs.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  …and so forth.  Did that, in your experience here, among, in your own experience in Modzitz, did this occur at all?  Did they take any popular tunes and…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003e\tSHENKER:  By, during, during, I, I can say one thing.  And it was certainly not done with a, I mean…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Consciously.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736#t=4565.0,4584.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736/transcript/29097/annotation/227","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SHENKER:  Consciously.  If it was done, it was done because some of these melodies keep floating around, you know.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Right.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003e\tSHENKER:  And, and you just can’t get away from it.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  No, I can’t think of any American type melody.  But I’m just, it’s curious that it sort of seems to be something that happened in Europe, but it didn’t happen here.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736#t=4584.0,4596.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736/transcript/29097/annotation/228","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSHENKER:\u003c/strong\u003e I know this.  That the old Modzitzer Rebbe, the Rebbe Saul — the first one — used to also go out into the fields.  A lot of times he used to take, would take, would go with a horse and carriage, you know.  And if he, if he would come across, let’s say, a shepherd singing, he would tell him to stop the car, he’d like to hear.  Like he liked to listen.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736#t=4596.0,4616.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736/transcript/29097/annotation/229","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"So we asked him what’s so important about the shepherds singing?  So he says every time the shepherd sings, it’s a Vidui, to Hakodesh Bor’chu.  That was his way, he interpreted it.  It’s a Vidui.  It’s not, it’s not just stam azoi.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736#t=4616.0,4630.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736/transcript/29097/annotation/230","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSEROTA:\u003c/strong\u003e But even in the cantorial compositions…","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736#t=4630.0,4648.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736/transcript/29097/annotation/231","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SHENKER:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eSEROTA:  …in that spot…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eSHENKER:  Right.  They all come in, yeah, right, right.  Because, because that’s, it’s a, that, that was a, that was the music that they, the people in that, that age heard.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Let’s talk about some of the differences among dynasties.  We’ve talked now largely about the Modzitz.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736#t=4648.0,4664.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736/transcript/29097/annotation/232","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SHENKER:  Right.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Which is your real home base.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eSHENKER:  That’s, that’s my home base, right.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  But is it safe to say there are concrete musical differences among the ones you named that, who are well-known for their music?  Let’s say, Bobover versus Modzitz versus Lubavitch, and so forth.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003e\tSHENKER:  Definitely.  There are, you can, there, there, I mean, anybody that’s attuned to Hassidic niggunah can tell when, when they hear a niggun, they’ll say, well this is a, this sounds like a Bobover.  Or this sounds like a Modzitzer.  There was a certain style that they, that you see throughout all the niggunim.   There’s a certain style that you can’t…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  For example, for the Maoz Tzur that a Bobover sang.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736#t=4664.0,4705.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736/transcript/29097/annotation/233","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SHENKER:  Maoz Tzur?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  At least this is what I’m told by people who are Bobover.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003e\tSHENKER:  Yeah?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Now, I don’t know if that was, is it a Maoz Tzur?  That’s that’s…","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736#t=4705.0,4716.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736/transcript/29097/annotation/234","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SHENKER:  Well, they used to have their own actual Maoz Tzur that he — the Rebbe used to sing a lot of his classic niggunim for Maoz Tzur.  I mean, like he would set it, set it in, you know…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Stuff that would…","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736#t=4716.0,4725.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736/transcript/29097/annotation/235","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SHENKER:  Yeah.  I mean, but he didn’t make anything…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  This one is a (sings one).  Ben Zion Miller sang it for me.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003e\tSHENKER:  Oh, yeah?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  His family is from Bobover.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eSHENKER:  I, I think I heard him sing it, also.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eSHENKER:  …come to think of it.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003e\tLEVIN:  See, I notated it for him.  He sang it to take back to….  I’m wondering if…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eSHENKER:  Was that Bobover or that his father’s?  Because he has, he has his father’s book.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Maybe it’s his father’s.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eSHENKER:  Yeah.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736#t=4725.0,4747.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736/transcript/29097/annotation/236","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"LEVIN:  But I assumed that was Bobover.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eSHENKER:  Yeah.  Well, he should know much about Bobover, you know.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  I mean, what — the differences would be clear to you.  But would it be clear…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003e\tSHENKER:  Yeah, but someone that, that, that listens to the different niggunim — I mean, you can, can…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Stylistically, there are…","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736#t=4747.0,4765.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736/transcript/29097/annotation/237","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SHENKER:  …there are, there is a difference.  There is no doubt about it.  There are certain styles you can…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Now, what about groups?  We talked about the Bobover, we talked about, you know, the well-known, well-established groups.  What about, for example, do you have a recording comes out, The Pittsburgher Niggunim?  What does that, where does that fit into the picture here?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736#t=4765.0,4785.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736/transcript/29097/annotation/238","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSHENKER:\u003c/strong\u003e Well, you know, you must understand.  The Pittsburgher Rebbe, let’s say, was a descendant of Nodranin.  So I imagine there must be, it must have some connection to his.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736#t=4785.0,4797.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736/transcript/29097/annotation/239","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"But then again, he, he was, he composed here in America.  He, he didn’t, he, he didn’t inherit any, any, anything from, from, from, I mean, he was, don’t forget he was, he came as a young man, probably.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  So this is not a particular dynasty?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003e\tSHENKER:  No.  Well…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eSEROTA:  What about the Bostoner?  The Bostoner Rebbe?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eSHENKER:  I’m saying the same thing with the Bostoner.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eSEROTA:  They have two Bostoner Rebbes, right?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003e\tSHENKER:  There are actually more, well…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eSEROTA:  There’s a Bostoner Rebbe in Boston and a Bostoner Rebbe in New York.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736#t=4797.0,4821.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736/transcript/29097/annotation/240","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SHENKER:  Rebbe in, in, in Borough Park.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eSEROTA:  Horowitz?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eSHENKER:  And now there’s another brother who is in Flatbush, and who is also a Bostoner Rebbe.  So it’s more than that.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  But these tunes are original tunes?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003e\tSHENKER:  You see, again, it’s hard to define.  They, they, they definitely started composing, they, they — don’t forget, they are younger people.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736#t=4821.0,4838.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736/transcript/29097/annotation/241","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"The, the one that’s in Borough Park is — well, he probably is now, by then, in his 70s already, I would say.  But he started composing when he, let’s say, in his 40s or 50s.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003e\tSo he, he was here.  And he was born, and he was born in America.  He was born here, or he was at least brought up in America.  So there is that environment.  I mean, it’s already an American environment.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736#t=4838.0,4856.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736/transcript/29097/annotation/242","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eLEVIN:\u003c/strong\u003e What’s the difference between a song that comes from the so-called yeshiva world, but not necessarily from a Hassidic dynasty or it’s kind of….  Or it would come, made popular by certain recordings.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736#t=4856.0,4885.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736/transcript/29097/annotation/243","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Let’s take — what was the one the children are always singing it, from the London group, you know?  You know, the most famous of the London Pirkhim?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eSEROTA:  Areh Minkhom?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  No.  More…","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736#t=4885.0,4900.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736/transcript/29097/annotation/244","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SHENKER:  Can’t think of it, that right now.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  It’s the lead song on their first recording.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eSHENKER:  Uh (hums it).  Is that it?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  No.  Yeah, yeah.  (Hums it) What is the song, what is the words for it?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736#t=4900.0,4911.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736/transcript/29097/annotation/245","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SHENKER:  See, well, I’m flattering myself here.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  (Hums it)  Now, the thing that ever became so popular, but that’s not, of course, a Hassidic song.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736#t=4911.0,4922.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736/transcript/29097/annotation/246","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SHENKER:  It, it’s not a Hassidic song.  It’s a, it’s a song of the modern times.  Let me put it that way.  Modern day and age.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  It probably is.  But it made the rounds of the yeshiva world.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736#t=4922.0,4934.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736/transcript/29097/annotation/247","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SHENKER:  Yeah, because the kids latch onto these things.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Right.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003e\tSHENKER:  I mean, don’t get me — you must understand.  Kids nowadays listen to a lot of this modern jazz, a lot of this modern music.  And some of them really like, happen to like it.  I mean, they, they listen to the rock ‘n’ roll, also.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003e\tThere was a new — and, and some of the modern-day composers have to sort of cater to that, to that, to the wishes…","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736#t=4934.0,4951.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736/transcript/29097/annotation/248","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eLEVIN:\u003c/strong\u003e (Sings it; Shenker joins in)  Now the thing is that that’s one thing being done today.  But are, at the same time, in the past 20 years, and now up to and including now and the future, are the actual dynasties adding to the new songs, to, that are created…","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736#t=4951.0,4977.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736/transcript/29097/annotation/249","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SHENKER:  New songs to the…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  …from, that are authentic, whether it’s Chabad, whether it’s the Bobover, whether it’s Modzitzer.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eSHENKER:  Yes.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003e\tSHENKER:  Well, Lubavitch I can’t say, because I don’t — I mean, Chabad.  I mean, I don’t think, I don’t know if they have any original composers there right now.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736#t=4977.0,4989.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736/transcript/29097/annotation/250","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"See, while, while the Rebbe was alive, he used to introduce, almost every year, he used to introduce, I understand it used to be done, done during, I think, Hakafah or something.  I was told that, that and he, he brought back melodies that were composed maybe 30, 40 years earlier, but that, that were in sort of his recesses of his mind.  And he would like sort of, and that, that became like the, the, the niggun of the year, you know.  And everybody was, was…","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736#t=4989.0,5014.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736/transcript/29097/annotation/251","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"LEVIN:  Yes.  I read, I remember then.  But I mean…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eSHENKER:  Now, I don’t know if they have anybody there that’s capable of coming up with anything new.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  How about Modzitz?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736#t=5014.0,5021.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736/transcript/29097/annotation/252","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SHENKER:  Modzitz does.  They’re the…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  It’s continually bringing new…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eSHENKER:  Yes.  The, the, oddly enough, the, the present Rebbe living, who resides now in B’nai Brach, who is, I think, instead of a musical person, to get to, it’s not, not very musical.  I mean, in his, the way he projects his voice or in what he, what he sings.  And I never would dream there would come a time when he will be able to compose a niggun that would become, become popular and be sung by, by, by people.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736#t=5021.0,5047.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736/transcript/29097/annotation/253","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Going — I’m going back to the time when his father was alive.  I mean, he knew all the niggunim, but he didn’t, he certainly wasn’t the person to, to….  And here, all of a sudden, he becomes Rebbe and he starts composing.  And he, he knocks them out like — I mean, it’s unbelievable.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736#t=5047.0,5064.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736/transcript/29097/annotation/254","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"He had the, during, for Rosh Hashanah, he, he had ten, 12 niggunim.  I can’t say all of them are, are singable…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  But some of them are new.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003e\tSHENKER:  But some of them are new and very singable, also.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  And who notates them now?  You, you…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003e\tSHENKER:  I, I, I do a lot of notating now, also.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  You still do that?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eSHENKER:  Yes, yes.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  And…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003e\tSHENKER:  I mean, I get them, I get them on tapes.  They send me the tapes and…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Yeah, yeah, sure.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eSHENKER:  …after I get them, I notate them.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736#t=5064.0,5081.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736/transcript/29097/annotation/255","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eLEVIN:\u003c/strong\u003e It makes it easier.  I mean, but I also heard something in the, and I could be wrong.  But the Modzitz, too.  That there was a particular time when the Rebbe would introduce a melody — or maybe I’m confusing it.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eI don’t remember during the Hakafah.  I remember it some other time.  It was a set-aside time to introduce new melodies.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736#t=5081.0,5094.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736/transcript/29097/annotation/256","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSHENKER:\u003c/strong\u003e Not really.  Modzitzer, they came at any, any time.  Of, of course, they are, you, you have new melodies, mostly around Rosh Hashanah time.  That’s, that’s a time when, first of all, they, he, he used to change his melodies from one year to the other.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736#t=5094.0,5110.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736/transcript/29097/annotation/257","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eLEVIN:\u003c/strong\u003e Are you still composing now?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736#t=5110.0,5122.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736/transcript/29097/annotation/258","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSHENKER:\u003c/strong\u003e I’m, I, I, I follow that same ritual.  Whereas I, I compose new melodies every year for these particular z’miros, these pizmonim that I told you.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003e\tThere are certain accepted ones that we use from year to year.  For instance, I always sing for Rosh Hashanah, you can save them.  I have a, an old Modzitzer niggun.  Two of them — I, I, I have two options there.  That I always continue singing.  Because I feel they’re so good, it’s so good and so appropriate that I, I wouldn’t want to change it.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736#t=5122.0,5149.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736/transcript/29097/annotation/259","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"K’ka Simkha I sing, which is every year the same thing.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eSEROTA:  Do you have a melody for, let’s say, B’khol Ma’aminim?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003e\tSHENKER:  B’khol Ma’aminim I usually compose something new.  B’khol Ma’aminim, it so happens, the Modzitz did not sing.  That’s the only thing that most people — most Hassidisse — do sing and Modzitz did not sing.  Modzitz used to have a, a nusaḥ for B’khol Ma’aminim.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736#t=5149.0,5165.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736/transcript/29097/annotation/260","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SEROTA:  And Ve Asoyu?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eSHENKER:  Ve Asoyu was new usually every year.  Yeah, that’s usually, March is a…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  New every year?  So it’s not possible that the congregation would pick it up.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003e\tSHENKER:  Well, you could, they’d pick it up…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  If you don’t repeat it until the second day…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eSHENKER:  Well, no.  First of all, first, first of all, what happens usually is the last day, I compose new melodies.  I call together my khevrah, including some of my ayneklach, of which Motti is one of them.  And we sort of go through, I, let’s say I have about six or seven new niggunim.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  You actually have a rehearsal?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736#t=5165.0,5198.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736/transcript/29097/annotation/261","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SHENKER:  I have a rehearsal.  I teach…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  So people are familiar…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eSHENKER:  …they come back, they come along with their tape recorders.  They all get it on tape.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  This is before Rosh Hashanah?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003e\tSHENKER:  Before Rosh Hashanah.  Usually, it’s, it’s the week before Selikhos, so it all depends on when Selikhos, when it comes out in the, in the calendar, you know.  Because sometimes it’s…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Yeah, yeah.  I know.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736#t=5198.0,5212.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736/transcript/29097/annotation/262","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SHENKER:  …and during the summer vacation, you can’t get them together.  You know.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  That’s very interesting.  So then you get a few…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003e\tSHENKER:  And then, and, and you’d be surprised how these fellows who know the niggunim before Rosh Hashanah, they all, when I, when I, when I sing Rosh Hashanah, I have me a complete choir already of guys that know them, you know.  Harmonies and everything else.  They’re all knocking them out, you know.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736#t=5212.0,5229.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736/transcript/29097/annotation/263","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eLEVIN:\u003c/strong\u003e I want to ask you about syllables.  Are there different syllables used for the substitution for words?  In other words, ay-ay-ay, oy-oy-oy, a-la-la — different — bim-bom.  For, for different dynasties?  Or is that exaggerated?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736#t=5229.0,5247.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736/transcript/29097/annotation/264","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSHENKER:\u003c/strong\u003e There probably is a, a difference between dynasties.  I, I would, I, I never defined it, really.  But you have style, different styles of singing among the Polishe, Pole, those that come from Poland, among those that come from Galicia, those that come from Hungary.  There are different expressions that, that the Hassidim used.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736#t=5247.0,5274.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736/transcript/29097/annotation/265","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSEROTA:\u003c/strong\u003e What are the, what syllables do they use in the Chabad — the Lubavitch?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736#t=5274.0,5285.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736/transcript/29097/annotation/266","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SHENKER:  The Chabad used a lot of ay-ay-ay-ay.  That’s, the Chabad is really (sings).  The, the Lubavitch is is very distinct.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  You mean, opposed to, let’s say, with the Modzitz?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736#t=5285.0,5316.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736/transcript/29097/annotation/267","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SHENKER:  Modzitz.  The Modzitz used a lot of the bim-bom.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Oh, they do?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eSHENKER:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Now, this is important.  Because some people are under the impression — I heard somewhere that bim-bom was never really a syllable used by the Hassidim.  That it’s only in America that they…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003e\tSHENKER:  No, definitely.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  In there?  Bim-bom.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eSHENKER:  Let me just, I’ll, I’ll tell you what.  I’ll sing any Modzitzer niggun.  First, the two set of, I think of it, I’ll see, we’ll just see what syllables I use.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Okay.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736#t=5316.0,5338.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736/transcript/29097/annotation/268","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSHENKER:\u003c/strong\u003e Because sometimes I don’t even, I’m not even, I don’t realize myself what I’m doing.  You know, people are so engrossed in what they’re, in what they’re doing that they don’t realize.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003e\t(Sings)  I, I’m using the bom-bom, bom-bom, bim-bom.  And that was, that, that’s the way the Rebbe used to sing.  That was, more or less.  If he didn’t say any words, that was the way he would, he would sing a niggun.  So obviously, that’s the, the Modzitzer nusaḥ.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736#t=5338.0,5374.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736/transcript/29097/annotation/269","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eLEVIN:\u003c/strong\u003e Yeah.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736#t=5374.0,5396.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736/transcript/29097/annotation/270","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SHENKER:  It’s only, it’s by the Tish, you know.  But by davening, they never, they never would repeat.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eBut you have a lot of Bobover compositions that are composed for particular words.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Now when you say a Galician, a Galicianer…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003e\tSHENKER:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Like who, for example?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eSHENKER:  Well, you have the Bobovitz Galicia.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Yeah.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736#t=5396.0,5415.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736/transcript/29097/annotation/271","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SHENKER:  Robshitz.  Robshitz is, has, has a, a number of categories.  You have Meletz.  And Meletz was, was known.  I mean, Meletz’s was, were known for their….\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003e\tActually, there, there is a, they used say that, that, that when, Robshitz’s descendants were, were defined as Zemer.  Zayin, the Mem stood for Meletz.  The Resh for Rozvidov.  The Zayin for Zickoff.  These are three descendants of of Robshitz.  All were, were com, all were composers of, of niggunim.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Which dynasty was this?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736#t=5415.0,5453.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736/transcript/29097/annotation/272","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SHENKER:  Zickoff, Meletz, Rozvidov — Zemir.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  And that’s what it was called?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eSHENKER:  Well, no.  They, they used to give that as a, as a remez, a way to do, to remember.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eSEROTA:  An acronym.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003e\tSHENKER:  An acronym, right.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eSEROTA:  Yeah, yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  But which dynasty are we talking about?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736#t=5453.0,5468.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736/transcript/29097/annotation/273","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SHENKER:  We’re talking about the Robshitz, Robshitz.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eSEROTA:  Robshitz.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eSHENKER:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  They exist now?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003e\tSHENKER:  Robshitz itself does not exist.  I mean, the name, there’s, there’s no, there’s no Robshitz Rebbe that I know of.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Descendants.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003e\tSHENKER:  But Meletz.  I’m trying to think whether there’s really a Meletzer descendant that’s considered a Rebbe at the time.  I, I know there, I know that there are…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  But it wouldn’t be in the United States?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736#t=5468.0,5487.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736/transcript/29097/annotation/274","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SHENKER:  There is a descendant, but I don’t think he’s officially a rebbe.  I mean, I don’t know.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  How about in Israel?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003e\tSHENKER:  I think there is, there is, in Israel.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  What about Satmar?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eSHENKER:  Well, Satmar is, is a, actually, Satmar is an offshoot of, of Yismach Mosheh.  You know, the Ehel.  There was a dynasty called Ehel.  The, the Mechabber of the Sefer Yismach Mosheh was the great-great-grandfather of Satmar.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Do Satmar Hassidim have any particular…","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736#t=5487.0,5514.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736/transcript/29097/annotation/275","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SHENKER:  Teitelbaum.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  …Teitelbaum.  Do they have any music, any musical…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003e\tSHENKER:  They have all the…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  …traditions that are different from…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eSHENKER:  Yeah.  There was a, there are, there are people here that are composing.  There is a fellow named Ashkenazi, who used to be the, the Gabbai by the Satmar Rebbe.  He was a composer.  There’s, there are Wertzbergers that are composing.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736#t=5514.0,5530.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736/transcript/29097/annotation/276","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"They have, they have, they are people that are composing original Satmar melodies.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eSEROTA:  The Gerer was Yankel Talmud?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003e\tSHENKER:  The Gerer was Yankel Talmud.  And now…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  The Gerer were not known so much for their music, were they?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003e\tSHENKER:  Not in Poland.  It became known in Israel really, more.  And then, of course, since recording, they, they, people have [INAUDIBLE] to…","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736#t=5530.0,5550.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736/transcript/29097/annotation/277","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SEROTA:  He’s a Gerer hassid…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eSHENKER:  He’s a Gerer hassid from Europe.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  You knew Shlomo Carlebach?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003e\tSHENKER:  Very well.  Very intimately, in fact.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  How do you explain the, it was an interesting phenomenon.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003e\tSHENKER:  It was, it was definitely a phenomenon.  Because…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  A certain following…","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736#t=5550.0,5563.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736/transcript/29097/annotation/278","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSHENKER:\u003c/strong\u003e We go, we go back, very, way, way back to our yeshiva days.  We were good friends.  And you’re going back to when we were both about — actually, we were both about the same age.  I mean, he was born in ’25 and so was I.  So we were contemporaries in the yeshiva.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736#t=5563.0,5581.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736/transcript/29097/annotation/279","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eLEVIN:\u003c/strong\u003e Yeah.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736#t=5581.0,5598.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736/transcript/29097/annotation/280","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSHENKER:\u003c/strong\u003e Yeah.  As a young kid, in fact.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eBut you know, it was interesting.  I never would dream in those days that he would turn out to be a composer.  Because he never, he never showed that, that talent at all.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003e\tI mean, he — well, he loved niggunah.  He was a great admirer of Modzitz also, incidentally.  He used to come to Modzitz, too.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003e\tHe was a, he was a, he was a Lubavitch at the time.  But he used to like, I remember very clearly, Simchas Torah.  That was his day he used to come to Modzitz.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736#t=5598.0,5629.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736/transcript/29097/annotation/281","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"And he used to dance on the tables — you know, dance all around.  He, he was like a real showpiece, you know.  It was like….  And the Rebbe used to really enjoy his shenanigans, I have to say.  You know, it was, because he had, he really had something to offer, I mean.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736#t=5629.0,5643.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736/transcript/29097/annotation/282","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"His, he, he would give speeches on Torah, you know, and, and it was all in the, in a light vein.  I mean, it as also the Simchas Torah thing, but it was….\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003e\tAnd so we knew each other, like spent summers together in Camp, Camp Mesivta.  We, we would, would hitchhike together, going — you know, the Modzitzer Rebbe was in summers in the, in a place called White Silver Springs.  I told Barry about that.  And we were in Camp Mesivta, which was about five or six miles away.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736#t=5643.0,5675.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736/transcript/29097/annotation/283","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"So we would go out, go out on the road together and just hitch a ride, and we would go visit the Rebbe in the afternoons, or spend a couple of hours there.  And he was, we used to do very much together.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003e\tHe had a, I, the Modzitz had a great influence on his, on his music.  There is no, there is no doubt in my mind.  There is a great influence.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736#t=5675.0,5695.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736/transcript/29097/annotation/284","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"And he, he told me this many times.  I mean, he….  And he used to sing Modzitzer niggunim, also.  He, in, during his performances.  He used to specifically say, “I’m singing this-and-this niggun, by the Modzitzer Rebbe,” and then and so forth.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736#t=5695.0,5707.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736/transcript/29097/annotation/285","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"And he was very friendly with, very close to the Rebbe’s successor, the one who lived in Tel Aviv at the time, Rebbe Yeb Shmuel Yoel.  He used to, when he was ever in Israel, he used to visit him, he used to come to Friday night Tish and Shabbes afternoon and so forth.  There was a strong relationship to Modzitz.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736#t=5707.0,5725.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736/transcript/29097/annotation/286","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eLEVIN:\u003c/strong\u003e How do you account for his, the popularity, the almost group following of his music?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736#t=5725.0,5749.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736/transcript/29097/annotation/287","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SHENKER:  The music is there.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Well, the music is, but we’re not talking about that.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eSHENKER:  Well, first of all, he was a very charismatic personality.  I mean, there’s, there’s no doubt about that.  I mean, he, he had that charisma, that — I mean, his story-telling was just unbelievable.  I mean, you listen to some of his recordings and just…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eSEROTA:  Sometimes the stories are better than the singing.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736#t=5749.0,5771.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736/transcript/29097/annotation/288","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSHENKER:\u003c/strong\u003e I mean, they’re, they’re the, the stories are really great.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eI mean, he, he had a, a knack, had a flair for telling a story.  I mean, this goes back even in his early days.  I mean, when I was, when I used to be friendly with him.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736#t=5771.0,5783.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736/transcript/29097/annotation/289","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eLEVIN:\u003c/strong\u003e The shul was on 79th Street.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736#t=5783.0,5796.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736/transcript/29097/annotation/290","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SHENKER:  79th Street.  I’m sorry.  79th Street.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Somewhere in there.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eSHENKER:  Yeah.  And Columbus Avenue, Columbus, and we were near the Riverside Drive.  And we were, we were, there were three people that, that used to sort of go together.  This was Shlomo, myself and Rabbi Wolfson — the one, the rabbi I mentioned to you before.  We were the three buddies from the Yeshiva.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736#t=5796.0,5817.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736/transcript/29097/annotation/291","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"So I would, very often, I would, we would go up by subway on Motza’ei Shabbos — the Rebbe, myself and Rabbi Wolfson we would go up to Shlomo Carlebach and spend a Motza’ei Shabbos there, and would spend, have a Melaveh Malkah together, and so forth.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736#t=5817.0,5833.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736/transcript/29097/annotation/292","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"And from his house, we would walk over to the Bobover Rebbe, who lived in the same area.  At that time, he lived in the West Side.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  In Manhattan?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003e\tSHENKER:  Yes.  The first two or three years that he, after he came to America, from 1946 to 1949, I would say, the Bobover Rebbe lived on the West Side.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736#t=5833.0,5851.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736/transcript/29097/annotation/293","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"And we would go, and we’d go to his house and spend Melaveh Malkah together there.  And then, and he knew — it was like, we were like a trio, you know.  He knew this was Ben Zion and this was Shlomo and this was Moshe.  And sometimes, he would forget who was who, so he’d call me Moshe, then call Shlomo, and then he’d call him Ben Zion, and so forth.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736#t=5851.0,5870.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736/transcript/29097/annotation/294","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"But this was like our ritual.  And we did it many, many times.  This was a very interesting part, episode, in my, in my, in my life, actually.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  His songs, you know the ones that he composed…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003e\tSHENKER:  Yeah?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  …original songs of Carlebach.  Those, of course, are not from any particular dynasty.  I mean, he wasn’t, those are…","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736#t=5870.0,5891.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736/transcript/29097/annotation/295","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SHENKER:  He was his own man.  I mean, he was, he was an original.  He was an original.  There’s no doubt about it.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  And yet they have a flavor.  I mean…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003e\tSHENKER:  Yeah, but you know what I find?  I’ve, I’ve been asked this question before.  Why was his, his songs, why were his songs, why did he become so popular?  Why was his music so….","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736#t=5891.0,5918.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736/transcript/29097/annotation/296","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSEROTA:\u003c/strong\u003e When you say other stuff, what do you mean?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736#t=5918.0,5941.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736/transcript/29097/annotation/297","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SHENKER:  I’m talking about what we’re accustomed to hearing today, even among, among yeshivas, among the Hassidim.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003e\tI mean, with, there are some recordings that are being made at the present day.  I mean, I don’t want to go knock anything.  You know, it’s not really for me to do that.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eSEROTA:  Pop Hassidic, neo-Hassidic?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736#t=5941.0,5958.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736/transcript/29097/annotation/298","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SHENKER:  Pop, neo — whatever you call it.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eSEROTA:  Pseudo-Hassidic?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eSHENKER:  Pseudo-Hassidic, neo-Hassidic.  You have all these, I mean, they all, they all sound as if they belong there, to somebody who doesn’t.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003e\tAnd so what, what, Carlebach happened to have a very traditional approach to his compositions.  Following the Hassidic melodies of the, like they were sung a hundred years ago — you know what I mean?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736#t=5958.0,5979.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736/transcript/29097/annotation/299","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eLEVIN:\u003c/strong\u003e You are right.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736#t=5979.0,5995.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736/transcript/29097/annotation/300","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SHENKER:  Yeah.  Right.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Yeah.  Right.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eSHENKER:  But people just latched onto it.  I mean, you have, even to this present day, even though people had a lot of objections to the lifestyle, possibly, and the [INAUDIBLE].  But when it comes to the music, they all say that there’s, it’s the real thing.  You know, it’s just, you just can’t get away with that.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736#t=5995.0,6023.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736/transcript/29097/annotation/301","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eLEVIN:\u003c/strong\u003e How about yourself?  When you, when you create a niggun, where do you think the inspiration comes from?  How does it happen?  How long does it take?  How does it compare to the process of composing in general?  I mean, how does it start inside you?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736#t=6023.0,6039.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736/transcript/29097/annotation/302","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSHENKER:\u003c/strong\u003e To compose a melody, or compose any kind of song, there must be some, some sort of emotional reason for it.  There is, there is, there, it just doesn’t come, doesn’t come out of the clear blue, I mean, without….  You have to have a certain kind of way to feel at a certain, a certain, at a certain time.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003e\tI mean, I find I, other than the time, let’s say, when I compose, I think, before, before Rosh Hashanah, it’s like really, I have already a sort of a, I wouldn’t, wouldn’t say a task.  I mean, I — but it’s, it’s like sort of accepted that I’m going to come out with some four or five new melodies for Rosh Hashanah.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736#t=6039.0,6078.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736/transcript/29097/annotation/303","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"So but there, there, already, of course, I have a, a text to go by.  So if you, if you, if I open up the Mahkzor and I, let’s say, approach the, the Areshet Sefateinu.  So immediately, I get certain thoughts that are connected to the meaning of the, of these particular words.  If it’s Ha-Yom Te-ammetzenu — there’s so much, so much meaning to, to, to all that.  And, and my, my composition is supposed to express that, those feelings.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736#t=6078.0,6110.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736/transcript/29097/annotation/304","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"I have, very often, I get inspiration on, on a Shabbat, on, at my table.  There, I have a problem, because there’s no way of recording it, no way of writing, of notating it.  This happens, this happens so many times, it’s just — and some.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736#t=6110.0,6128.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736/transcript/29097/annotation/305","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"And it happens many, very often, that my ayneklach — my grandchildren — come to visit to me, and I, I can get inspiration for a niggun.  So I sing it for them.  Say, “Remember this.  Remember that.”  And sometimes they do remember.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736#t=6128.0,6142.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736/transcript/29097/annotation/306","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"We put it all together after Shabbes.  It happens very often.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  What, how many times do you readjust something?  When you, I mean, you get an idea, and then you…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003e\tSHENKER:  Yes.  That, that’s, that’s very natural.  You can — although I am told, and this is something which I don’t know.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736#t=6142.0,6164.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736/transcript/29097/annotation/307","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"But you see the present, the present day, with, with all the means of recording, of tape recording and everything else, you can, you can put anything you want, anything you, that comes to your mind, you put on, onto a tape immediately, you know.  So it’s no big, no problem.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736#t=6164.0,6179.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736/transcript/29097/annotation/308","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"But I was told like the Modzitzer Rebbe — the present Rebbe — when he composes, he just, whatever comes into his mind, and he never changes.  That’s, that’s it.  And it remains that way.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736#t=6179.0,6190.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736/transcript/29097/annotation/309","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eLEVIN:\u003c/strong\u003e And you see it as a…","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736#t=6190.0,6215.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736/transcript/29097/annotation/310","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSHENKER:\u003c/strong\u003e Sometimes it could be musically, not, not musically, from a musical point of view, it may not be completely feasible.  So you have to do, you have to change it, from a musical point of view.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736#t=6215.0,6229.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736/transcript/29097/annotation/311","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSEROTA:\u003c/strong\u003e Zilbertz wrote Havdalah on the train going to Moscow, I think.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736#t=6229.0,6265.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736/transcript/29097/annotation/312","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SHENKER:  Really?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eSEROTA:  His famous setting of Havdalah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eSHENKER:  Yeah?  Beautiful piece, incidentally.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  And so the creative process for you involves revision, refinement…","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736#t=6265.0,6275.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736/transcript/29097/annotation/313","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eSHENKER:\u003c/strong\u003e Definitely.  You can’t, you have to polish it.  I mean, I can’t say this as a hundred percent fact.  There are some times where you, you get the right thing….\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003e\tNow, Mizmor L’David, the one we, we have been speaking about, the very famous one, came in one spurt and that’s the way it is.  And that’s the way it was composed.  And that’s the way it remained.  It’s, that’s interesting.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736#t=6275.0,6294.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736/transcript/29097/annotation/314","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"It was made on a Shabbes, incidentally.  It was made on, on a Shabbes, the shaleshudes in, in Haifa.  At my uncle’s home, where I was staying at the time, in the 1946.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736#t=6294.0,6304.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736/transcript/29097/annotation/315","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"LEVIN:  I think we’ve…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eSHENKER:  We’ve covered every, every angle.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  We’ve covered all the bases here.  Unless there’s any other story you want to tell us.  We could…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003e\tSHENKER:  You want another story?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  We could go on and on.  But it’s been a, very enlightening, I think.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eSHENKER:  Thank you very much.  It was a pleasure.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  It was a pleasure.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eSHENKER:  It was a pleasure to speak to you.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736#t=6304.0,6320.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736/transcript/29097/annotation/316","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"LEVIN:  And we’ll talk further.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eSHENKER:  And to Barry.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eSEROTA:  Okay.  Likewise.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN:  Thank you for coming.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/43635/file/116736#t=6320.0,6334.99733"}]}]}]}