{"@context":"http://iiif.io/api/presentation/3/context.json","id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/iiif/rj48p5vz9d/manifest","type":"Manifest","label":{"en":["Dershowitz, Alan"]},"logo":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/organizations/logo_images/000/000/115/original/Boxed_Milken_Center_logo.png?1628711583","metadata":[{"label":{"en":["Preferred Citation"]},"value":{"en":["\u003cp\u003eDershowitz, Alan. 2015. Interview by Neil W. Levin. Milken Archive Oral History Project. 14 June.\u003c/p\u003e"]}},{"label":{"en":["Publisher"]},"value":{"en":["Milken Family Foundation"]}},{"label":{"en":["Rights Statement"]},"value":{"en":["\u003cp\u003e© Milken Family Foundation. Unauthorized use is prohibited. For inquiries, please contact info@milkenarchive.org.\u003c/p\u003e"]}},{"label":{"en":["Agent"]},"value":{"en":["Levin, Neil W. (Interviewer)","Dershowitz, Alan (Interviewee)"]}},{"label":{"en":["Date"]},"value":{"en":["2015-06-14"]}},{"label":{"en":["Coverage"]},"value":{"en":["New York, NY (Place of Recording)"]}},{"label":{"en":["Language"]},"value":{"en":["English (Primary)"]}},{"label":{"en":["Description"]},"value":{"en":["\u003cp\u003eOral history with lawyer and writer Alan Dershowitz. He begins by drawing out some comparisons between being a lawyer and a hazzan, which segues into a discussion of his biography and early experience with Jewish liturgical music. In the second half of the interview, Dershowitz contemplates how Jewish cantorial music could be made more accessible to today's youth, and the ways in which Jewish music should be studied in a university setting. Also discussed is Dershowitz's ongoing side-project of composing an opera about Cantor Gershon Sirota.\u003c/p\u003e"]}},{"label":{"en":["Format"]},"value":{"en":["Beta SP"]}},{"label":{"en":["Subject"]},"value":{"en":["Oral Histories (genre/form)","Jews — Music (Topical Term)","Borough Park (New York, N.Y.) (Geographic)","Dershowitz, Alan M. (Person or Corporate Body)","Carlebach, Shlomo, 1925-1994 (Person or Corporate Body)","Secunda, Sholom, 1894-1974 (Person or Corporate Body)"]}},{"label":{"en":["Keyword"]},"value":{"en":["Avinu Malkeinu (prayer), Arnold Schoenberg (1874-1951), Arthur Goldberg (1908-1990), Berele Chagy (1892-1954), Borough Park — New York, Boston — Massachusetts, Brandeis University, cantor, choir, David Ben-Gurion (1886-1973), David Kusevitsky (1911-1985), Franklin Delano Roosevelt (1882-1945), George Gershwin (1898-1937), Gershon Sirota (1874-1943), klezmer, Moshe Kusevitsky (1899-1965), opera, pedagogy, Richard Tucker (tenor) (1913-1975), Shlomo Carlebach (1925-1994), Sholom Secunda (1894-1974), The Marsha Stern Talmudical Academy, The Metropolitan Opera, The Phantom of the Opera (musical), Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart (1756-1791), Yossele Rosenblatt (1882-1933), Young Israel Movement, Zavel Kwartin (1874-1952)"]}}],"summary":{"en":["\u003cp\u003eOral history with lawyer and writer Alan Dershowitz. He begins by drawing out some comparisons between being a lawyer and a hazzan, which segues into a discussion of his biography and early experience with Jewish liturgical music. In the second half of the interview, Dershowitz contemplates how Jewish cantorial music could be made more accessible to today's youth, and the ways in which Jewish music should be studied in a university setting. Also discussed is Dershowitz's ongoing side-project of composing an opera about Cantor Gershon Sirota.\u003c/p\u003e"]},"requiredStatement":{"label":{"en":["Attribution"]},"value":{"en":["\u003cp\u003e\u0026copy; Milken Family Foundation. Unauthorized use is prohibited. For inquiries, please contact info@milkenarchive.org.\u003c/p\u003e"]}},"provider":[{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/aboutus","type":"Agent","label":{"en":["Lowell Milken Center for Music of American Jewish Experience"]},"homepage":[{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/","type":"Text","label":{"en":["Lowell Milken Center for Music of American Jewish Experience"]},"format":"text/html"}],"logo":[{"id":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/organizations/logo_images/000/000/115/original/Boxed_Milken_Center_logo.png?1628711583","type":"Image"}]}],"thumbnail":[{"id":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/collection_resource_files/thumbnails/000/110/744/small/Dershowitz_Grab.png?1618316225","type":"Image","format":"image/png"}],"items":[{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39363/file/110744","type":"Canvas","label":{"en":["Media File 1 of 1 - X1001_Alan_Dershowitz.mp4"]},"duration":4662.57067,"width":640,"height":360,"thumbnail":[{"id":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/collection_resource_files/thumbnails/000/110/744/small/Dershowitz_Grab.png?1618316225","type":"Image","format":"image/png"}],"items":[{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39363/file/110744/content/1","type":"AnnotationPage","items":[{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39363/file/110744/content/1/annotation/1","type":"Annotation","motivation":"painting","body":{"id":"https://aviary-p-milken.s3.wasabisys.com/collection_resource_files/resource_files/000/110/744/original/X1001_Alan_Dershowitz.mp4?1615913796","type":"Video","format":"video/mp4","duration":4662.57067,"width":640,"height":360},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39363/file/110744","metadata":[]}]}],"annotations":[{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39363/file/110744/transcript/24149","type":"AnnotationPage","label":{"en":["Edited Transcript [Transcript]"]},"items":[{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39363/file/110744/transcript/24149/annotation/1","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Neil Levin: Here we are with, uh, Professor Alan Dershowitz. We're going to be talking not about jurisprudence, although we -- we could another time, but we're going to be talking about hazzanes, Jewish music and related things. So welcome, Professor Dershowitz.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: Well, thank you. Uh, you know, I might've been a hazzan, uh, rather than a lawyer if my voice were just a little better, because of my grandfathers were hazzanim.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39363/file/110744#t=16.0,43.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39363/file/110744/transcript/24149/annotation/2","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Neil Levin: Well, I want to hear about that, because, uh, a hazzan, in a way, is a lawyer. Uh, I remember going to, uh -- to hear Joshua Lind's son, Dale Lind.\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: We both make the same pronouncement, hineini ha’ani, here I stand in front of you as the messenger. When I argue in front of a court of a jury, I make the same plea, please don't hold against me, don't hold against my client what you might think of me. Uh, judge my client, uh, on his merits just the way the shaliakh tzibur, the cantor, uh, makes that same plea before, uh, Rosh Hashanah Yom Kippur services.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39363/file/110744#t=43.0,78.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39363/file/110744/transcript/24149/annotation/3","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Neil Levin: And then we hope we have a good lawyer. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: Uh-huh.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: We're pleading I hope you have a good hazzan, both [inaudible] -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: Yeah. Yeah. Right.\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: -- same thing. So tell me about your grandfather.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: Well, both of my grandfathers were hazzanim and my grandfather Ringle on my mother's side was, um, more of a ba’al t'filla. He had a beautiful nusaḥ; he sang with a beautiful voice, but he was not a -- you know, not a great cantorial singer. Um, my grandfather Dershowitz had a beautiful cantorial voice and, um, used to, uh, conduct services at a little shtibl in Williamsburg in his own home. Um, he had, um, eight children, um, seven boys and nephews.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39363/file/110744#t=78.0,118.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39363/file/110744/transcript/24149/annotation/4","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Uh, and so the family were his choir and he actually composed, um, a few melodies for Hanukkah and, uh, other holidays and, uh, obviously, he had another job. He had a day job, uh, and he was relatively poor. He also saved many of our family members from the Holocaust by having affidavits that every house in the neighborhood needed a hazzan, a shamas, a shohket, a moyel, a rebbitzin, uh, you name it and he rescued 28 members of our family from Brno, Czechoslovakia in 1939.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39363/file/110744#t=118.0,155.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39363/file/110744/transcript/24149/annotation/5","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Neil Levin: And, uh, you grew up therefore hearing hazzanos from the time you were an infant.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: I always heard hazzanos. Um, we did not have a -- I came from a relatively uncultured, uh, immediate family. We did not have a record player for the first few years. I bought the first record player into the house and actually bought the first, um, cantorial, uh, recordings, but, uh, of course, I grew up in a neighborhood of hazzanim. I grew up with Moshe Koussevitzky on one corner, David Koussevitzky on the other corner, before them, Berele Chagy, before that, uh, Rosenblatt and Hirschman. So Borough Park was one of the world's centers of hazzanut.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39363/file/110744#t=155.0,196.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39363/file/110744/transcript/24149/annotation/6","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Neil Levin: You -- uh, you heard most of the greats that were still -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: In my generation. Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: -- in your generation.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: Um, you mentioned Chagy. You didn’t know Rosenblatt, of course.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: No. No. Rosenblatt died before that. Yeah.\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: He was -- he was dead before then. Who else do you remember hearing, uh –","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39363/file/110744#t=196.0,211.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39363/file/110744/transcript/24149/annotation/7","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Alan Dershowitz: Well, of course, I heard Richard Tucker, um, doing, uh, hazzanish music \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: At that time, it was -- he wasn't using the name Tucker yet? \u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: No. Ticker.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: Ticker or Toosh- -- Toosher or Ticker, I forget.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: I don't remember -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: Okay. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: -- but, uh, we all knew this -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: Uh, Reuben [ph].\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: -- great, great singer and we heard, of course, Sholom Secunda, uh -- and, um, whoever was singing in those days, we would m- -- m- -- you know, make a -- a pilgrimage to hear, because we loved -- we loved hazzanishe music.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: I'm going to ask you a question that I've been asked with regard to not only this, but the pianists and so forth, is there any hazzan, um, whom you could've heard, but you just didn't and you regret now?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: Yeah. Uh -- uh, Kwartin, uh, who, um, I think had the greatest, uh, musicality. Um -- uh, I love his recordings. I would've loved to hear him sing in person, of course, Serotta, um -- uh, and, uh, Rosenblatt. Uh, those were all before my time.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39363/file/110744#t=211.0,271.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39363/file/110744/transcript/24149/annotation/8","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Neil Levin: But could -- but could you have heard Kwartin? No?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: I don't know. I don't remember when Kwartin died.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: How about Pinchik?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: Pinchik, um, probably was, uh, alive when I was listening. I never heard him. I never heard him.\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: That's the way I feel. I mean, I could've -- I didn't know that he was still singing.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: Yeah. Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: He was on 93rd Street.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: Yeah. Didn't know that. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: I didn't -- I didn't know it either.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39363/file/110744#t=271.0,288.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39363/file/110744/transcript/24149/annotation/9","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Alan Dershowitz: Well, first of all, hey, I didn't grow up in New York. I grew up in Brooklyn. And New York was someplace you came on Thanksgiving day to watch the parade, uh, you know -- you know, maybe once a year you'd go to the Farm Food and have a nice dairy meal, but, uh, New York was as far away as, uh, you know, anything for us in Brooklyn.\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: And you called it New York, I remember that, [inaudible] when you were a child.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: Well, are you going to New York?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: [inaudible] \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: Uh, no. No. No. I'm staying Brooklyn.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: Yeah. Uh, my -- I remember my uncle talking that way.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: Right.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39363/file/110744#t=288.0,313.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39363/file/110744/transcript/24149/annotation/10","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Neil Levin: Um, so, uh, what would -- what would you consider, uh -- uh, was your home -- uh, your -- your home base, um, shul?\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: I went -- my parents, uh, were the found- -- my grandparents were among the founders of the Young Israel Movement. So, um, my -- both my grandfathers -- the way my parents met was because my grandfathers knew each other from their common, uh, commitment to both the Young Israel movement and to Torah Vodaas Yeshiva. \u003cbr\u003eUh, both of my grandfathers were among the founders of Torah Vodaas Yeshiva and the Young Israel of Brooklyn, which is the first Young Israel in Williamsburg. So the shul I went to was not a cantorial shul; we just had ba’al t'filla, uh, but we used to sneak out and my grandfather, uh, would allow me and my -- my parents would allow me for musaf to go to hear the hazzan. And so -- and frankly, I sometimes used it as an excuse.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39363/file/110744#t=313.0,368.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39363/file/110744/transcript/24149/annotation/11","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"I would tell my parents, I'm going to hear the hazzan and I went and I played Punchbowl or something like that. But, uh, I would go to hear hazzan and whoever the hazzan was. We never called them by name, it was just \"the hazzan.\" We all knew who it was, uh, and of course, we didn't refer to Dovid Koussevitzky as \"the hazzan,\" because he was in a Conservative synagogue. My grandmother didn't approve of that, my parents –","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39363/file/110744#t=368.0,392.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39363/file/110744/transcript/24149/annotation/12","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Neil Levin: With organ?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: Well, when I was there, uh, there was no organ.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: Oh, no.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: When I was there, though, there was a mixed choir and -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: Right. And he faced -- did he face the congregation?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: He faced the congregation and he had a slightly weaker voice than Moshe, but a beautiful, beautiful voice, but he needed to face the congregation whereas Moshe, he cheated. You know, he would turn a little bit, he had an angle the way he turned and he would make sure his voice didn't hit the aron kodesh, uh, which was velvet and it -- it would hit off a corner and the -- the real mayvens knew exactly where to sit in the shul to get the maximum of the Moshe Koussevitzky effect, but he had such a powerful voice.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39363/file/110744#t=392.0,436.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39363/file/110744/transcript/24149/annotation/13","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Neil Levin: I don't when they -- do you know when they put in organ -- they started to use the organ in David Koussevitzky -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: I don't know. I -- I -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: They did later, but I don't know when.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: -- yeah. I don't know about the organ in there.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: I don't mean for weddings. For weddings, uh -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: Of course. Of course.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: -- anybody could use it.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: So, um -- uh, you were in the choir, uh, [inaudible].\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: I was in the choir, um, Ben Friedman's choir.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: Um, I was, uh, an -- an alto, um, and, uh, my voice changed at one point and that was the end of, uh -- uh, my -- my, uh, choir career, basically, uh -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003e\tNeil Levin: You didn't go on to baritone from there?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: I did not go on to be a baritone. I actually -- uh, if anything, I'm kind of a -- a tenor, uh, and I still love to sing, but, um –","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39363/file/110744#t=436.0,477.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39363/file/110744/transcript/24149/annotation/14","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Neil Levin: What kind of repertoire did they do? Would it have been -- uh -- uh, this was with Koussevitzky?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: Both, Berele Chagy -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: And Berele Chagy --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: -- both Berele Chagy and Koussevitzky, uh, the choir was the constant. We would sit up in the -- in the -- in the angels choir. You know, there was a -- way above with the curtain, uh, but they would open the curtain and, uh, there were probably 25 of us. Uh, I remember there were some older men; um, some of them a little strange, um, not Orthodox.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39363/file/110744#t=477.0,508.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39363/file/110744/transcript/24149/annotation/15","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"They would, uh, leave and go in their cars, um, but it was an all -- all male choir, um, and of course, the bass is the baritones and the tenors were, for the most part, uh, older men and then there were us, uh, the teenagers who were really, uh, just -- you know, we were paid a quarter, uh, a -- a week or something like that -- 25 cents a week and we couldn't get paid on Shabbos, obviously. So sometimes he -- they withheld the money. And then occasionally, we would be invited to come to the small choir to perform at a wedding or something like that.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39363/file/110744#t=508.0,539.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39363/file/110744/transcript/24149/annotation/16","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Neil Levin: This wasn't one of those choirs, like Oscar Julius or Sam Sterner, I don't know if it -- who -- who -- who did 20 weddings on a Sunday in different places or one place?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: No, but he -- they did -- he did weddings. Uh -- uh, you know, Koussevitzky and Berele Chagy did occasional weddings.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: So did you ever sing Vimalei?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: Uh, yes. I did. Yeah. Yeah. Uh -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: [singing in Hebrew] \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: [singing in Hebrew]. Yeah. I know -- I remember -- I remember that. This brings back some nice -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: Yeah.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39363/file/110744#t=539.0,564.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39363/file/110744/transcript/24149/annotation/17","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Alan Dershowitz: -- some nice melodies. And I do remember singing once at a wedding or a concert, uh, Akavia Ben Mahalal Omer and, um Sheh Yibanei Beis HaMikdash -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: Of course. Um, and I had a solo once for Avinu Malkeinu, uh, with [inaudible].\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: I wonder what Avinu Malkeinu was, not -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: Not the new Avinu Malkeinu, uh, [singing], you know, just that and [singing] -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: -- [singing]. I sang it much better then.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: I don't know, and you had the choir backup?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39363/file/110744#t=564.0,617.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39363/file/110744/transcript/24149/annotation/18","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Neil Levin: They were like humming or something?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: You know, uh, just briefly, one -- one of the things I do is try to track down the history of everything, because everything I write is, you'll see when I write, is context. I'm not -- I don't care that it goes from a VI-II chord to a IV-IV chord and a million students could write that.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: Right.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: So I'm interested in the context and the -- and the context can ext- -- it extends to political things. People ask me, why are you writing about Franklin Roosevelt? Because it has to do with the era, uh, which is something else I've got to talk to you about maybe privately. Um, but I've never been able to find a source for that melody, uh, in European manuscripts, in European sources, uh, except that people remember that they sang it in Europe –","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39363/file/110744#t=617.0,659.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39363/file/110744/transcript/24149/annotation/19","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Alan Dershowitz: Yeah. Of course.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: -- but there's no -- uh, and the -- and the other irony is, and I have no answer to this, maybe you do, did you remember seeing prayer books? There are very few of them, but there were wh- - that at the -- at that -- because that's the last -- that's the last of Avinu Malkeinu of the whole list and at the bottom, it said either in Hebrew or even in a couple English translations in Orthodox most- -- that is not to be said out loud; it's to be said silently. Do you remember seeing anything?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39363/file/110744#t=659.0,687.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39363/file/110744/transcript/24149/annotation/20","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Alan Dershowitz: No, but I do remember, of course, um, seeing prayer books with Aleinu. Um, there was in parenthesis, not to be said loud. The part that says they do not make -- we are not like unto other nations. So, uh -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: So -- but there, there's a historical reason.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: Right. Of course.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: So, uh, in case -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: But I never -- I never saw the Avinu Malkeinu. No.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: -- well, I'm always asking -- I'm curious, because, uh, I'm having trouble finding people who remember seeing it, but -- but then I finally found one person.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: I have some old siddurim that you can look at; right?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: Because you're going to find it's a custom, obviously, it's not a law, but I heard a drash on it. So that's how I remember.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39363/file/110744#t=687.0,719.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39363/file/110744/transcript/24149/annotation/21","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Alan Dershowitz: Right. Right.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: The drash is that, uh -- uh -- um, if a man goes into a dry good's store and he says, I want some of this, I want some of that, uh, this whole thing and the people around them, everything is put on the counter for him and then he's embarrassed he has no money. He's asking for credit. So he says -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: -- but I don't have any money. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: [inaudible] \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: ayn lanu ma’asim tovim.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: Right. Right.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: And so I'm curious to see if you -- I'm -- I'm desperately searching for, um -- uh, a mahkzor or mahkzorim that were printed in -- with -- in Russia with Russian translation on the left side and in Poland, because there were, but they're very hard to find. Then I even had a meeting with -- do you know Steve Zipperstein at Stanford? And he had to confess he doesn't know –","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39363/file/110744#t=719.0,768.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39363/file/110744/transcript/24149/annotation/22","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Alan Dershowitz: Mm-hmm. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: -- uh, but I have to find that, because that's going to tell me what they did and did not do in the khorshuls of Saint Petersburg, in Moscow's -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: Right. Right.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: And no one yet has examined what -- what -- what -- what makhzor they used in Poland. What makhzor did Sirota use? I'm -- I'm trying to find that, because there were ones printed in Polish. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: Mm-hmm. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: There was even a Polish rabbinical school in the 1820s. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: Mm-hmm. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: Nobody -- uh, the -- the one in Vilna they know about, but the one in Poland, it didn't work out. Uh, every -- about a third of the students in the -- rabbinical students ended up converting in the end.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39363/file/110744#t=768.0,804.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39363/file/110744/transcript/24149/annotation/23","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Alan Dershowitz: Mm-hmm. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: It -- it -- it's -- it's a sad story, but the fact is, there -- there was a mahkzor in Polish, um, which I don't know what Sirota used. Do you know?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: No. I have no idea.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: I mean, in that synagogue, they ma- -- uh -- uh, they use -- I guarantee, they used something that had translation on the left side.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: I'm sure.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: The question was, whether -- was it a German one -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: Yeah. Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: -- or whether it was in Polish. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: Don't know the answer. Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: So if you -- so, uh, you know, Ben Friedman’s choir, so, uh -- uh -- uh, you -- why didn't you transfer to -- to continue on as a baritone?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39363/file/110744#t=804.0,833.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39363/file/110744/transcript/24149/annotation/24","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Alan Dershowitz: I -- I wasn't a baritone and -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: Oh, I thought -- oh.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: -- um -- uh, you know, I was getting on to high school and I had other things to do. And so -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: And was this -- was this just you or were there other people your age who -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: Oh, yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: -- who wanted -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: No. It was part of the tradition of Borough Park. If you had a decent voice, you would try out for the choir and it was competitive, um, and I was one of the pretty good, but not great, uh, young choir boys. We had a kid named Bernstein, uh, I can't remember his first name now, who had an angelic voice; uh, he was my age and he stayed on the choir for a long, long time.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39363/file/110744#t=833.0,870.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39363/file/110744/transcript/24149/annotation/25","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Neil Levin: What about, is -- is the -- even aside from the choir, what about this attachment to going to hear hazzan, uh -- uh -- uh, whether it was, uh -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: That has continued all of my life.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: But uh, you weren't a -- a weirdo, uh -- uh, you -- uh, at the time. There were a lot of young people -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: Oh -- oh, yeah. No. A lot of us. First of all, we also -- we loved hazzanishe music, we also loved the opera. So we would get on the train in Borough Park, go to the 42nd Street station, uh, and carry with us, uh -- uh, a score from the opera, which we took out of the library. And if you had a score, they would let you into the Metropolitan Opera for 50 cents and give you a little table -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: The score desks?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And we would watch the opera from -- from there -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: Yeah.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39363/file/110744#t=870.0,912.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39363/file/110744/transcript/24149/annotation/26","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Alan Dershowitz: -- and -- and try our best to follow the score. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: When I was a freshman at Columbia -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: -- uh, or maybe -- and maybe sophomore was the last year of the old house.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: And so when I came as a freshman, it was -- that -- that's one of the first times -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: -- I went to the score desks.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: And the first I ever went to the opera, it was sponsored by Mizrachi and it was, uh, \"Carmen\" and it was Richard Tucker and Robert Merrill and Rise Stevens -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: Rise Stevens.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39363/file/110744#t=912.0,936.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39363/file/110744/transcript/24149/annotation/27","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Alan Dershowitz: -- and that was my first encounter with opera. And then I would go back, particularly with a friend of mine named Arthur Adelman who now lives in Israel who's an eminent doctor and we would go hear opera, we would go hear concerts; uh, occasionally, we'd go hear a Yiddish concert, uh, on 2nd Avenue, uh, but mostly, it was hazzanishe music and opera.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: Okay. So then this brings me to an important question, you're talking about -- uh -- uh, and you went -- let's just -- I'm going to back up a second, up through eighth grade or up through high school --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: Oh -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: -- you were at the Yeshiva day school?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: -- oh, I was at the Yeshiva day school all the way through high school. I was a terrible high school student. Um, my principal called me in one day and said, you know, Dershowitz, you've got a good mouth on you, but, a Yiddishe kop, a good Jewish brain you don't have –","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39363/file/110744#t=936.0,984.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39363/file/110744/transcript/24149/annotation/28","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Neil Levin: Was that -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: -- you should think -- Rabbi Abraham Zuroff who signed his name -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: So -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: -- Efraim Zuroff -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: -- which Yeshiva day school was this?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: It was Brooklyn Talmudical Academy, which is Yeshiva University High School. That was my high school. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: What about, uh, before that?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: Uh, I went to Etz Chaim. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: Etz Chaim.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: But my teacher called me in and said -- my principal and says, we've got to figure out something for you to do, that you use your mouth a lot, but not your head. He said, I have two suggestions, one, you could be a lawyer or you could be a Conservative rabbi. He couldn't even pronounce the word \"Reform\" and for him, it was the worst insult to call somebody a Conservative rabbi.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39363/file/110744#t=984.0,1015.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39363/file/110744/transcript/24149/annotation/29","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"I wasn't smart enough to be a rabbi, so I became a lawyer. But I was a terrible student, both in Etz Chaim and in, uh, Brooklyn Talmudical Academy and then went on to Brooklyn College and became a very good student.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: There was a -- a Rabbi, uh, Kufeld. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: Mr. Kufeld was not a rabbi.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: Was not a rabbi.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: He was the English principal. He was the most elegant man any of us ever knew. We all thought he looked like Franklin Delano Roosevelt and we treated him like Franklin Delano Roosevelt. He was a marvelous educator and he lived two doors away from, uh, my house where I lived for a couple of years. Max Kufeld was absolutely an amazing man. He brought style and intellectual. Now, everything he was, the Hebrew principal was not. Uh, he was -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: The principal of the shul?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: -- He was a principal named Rabbi Shulman –","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39363/file/110744#t=1015.0,1058.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39363/file/110744/transcript/24149/annotation/30","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Neil Levin: Uh-huh.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: -- who, uh, you know, was a fairly typical, uh, Orthodox rabbi with not a tremendous amount of vision. His -- he had children with a lot of vision and a lot of openness, but I got along very well with Max Kufeld, but not at all -- at all -- at all well with Rabbi Shulman.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: And then you -- uh, in those years, so for -- up through eighth grade, would you say that some of your classmates, uh, also loved to -- to go hear a good hazzan?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: Yeah. Not only that, but the school -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: Okay. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: -- emphasized it. We would have -- we had Mr. Ostraou who was our music teacher and he had a beautiful voice and he taught us all the great Hebrew melodies and we all sang all the time. Uh, singing Hebrew melodies, uh, and davenning for the omed was a very important part of our education.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39363/file/110744#t=1058.0,1108.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39363/file/110744/transcript/24149/annotation/31","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Neil Levin: So here is one of my big questions, in going through, uh -- uh, I've gone through every cantorial journal published in Europe, some of them were weekly in -- in -- in, uh -- uh, the -- the Austria-Hungarian cantorial newspaper was published weekly from 1890 up until 1906.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: Amazing.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: Uh, in Germany, there were two, uh, one in the 19th Century, one in the 20th Century, uh -- uh, one from Bromberg and then in Hamburg, but I mean, it was -- you know, uh, it was for all of Europe. There was -- there was even one in Yugos- -- well, it became later Yugoslavia, but I think it was in -- in Serbia. And then of course, there was a -- uh, those were all in -- they were in German and then the -- the one in Yiddish was -- came from Warsaw, the shul in the hazzonimvelt, which came out monthly until 1939.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39363/file/110744#t=1108.0,1161.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39363/file/110744/transcript/24149/annotation/32","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Alan Dershowitz: Wow.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: And in fact -- yeah. All the way until '39, just a month before the invasion. And what I noticed in there, in the letters from synagogues all over Europe requesting, uh, you know, uh -- uh -- uh, applicants for hazzan is that we need to find a good, really fine hazzan “to attract the young people”.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: That's so interesting. Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: Now, today, it's the total opposite.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: Right. Today, it's for the older people; right?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: But at your time -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: Young people were attracted.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: -- it still was the young -- so why -- how do you -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: So it's interesting, because the older folks, um, in my neighborhood didn't like the hazzanim; they wanted to go to Young Israel, uh, they wanted to have a ba’al t'filla, they wanted to get out soon, uh, whereas the younger people, we loved the hazzan. We were willing to stay until 2:30 on a Shabbos, um, and that created a real problem within the family, because, you know, Koussevitzky and Chagy didn't finish at","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39363/file/110744#t=1161.0,1215.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39363/file/110744/transcript/24149/annotation/33","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"12 o'clock. Uh, and the family wanted to sit down for lunch, they were hungry and the kids were listening to the hazzanim.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39363/file/110744#t=1215.0,1222.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39363/file/110744/transcript/24149/annotation/34","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Neil Levin: The question is, I mean, today, the perception is that that's old-fashioned and -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: Well, that -- what happens is us young people became old.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: Well -- but here's my question to you, and -- and, uh, see what -- how you would analyze this and what we could do about it, I'm sure you, uh, had -- would've had the same experience. If I had told my father in 1960, um -- okay. My father was born in 1906, but it wouldn't have mattered to anyone [inaudible], it could've been younger. I would've said it to anybody with any intelligence in 1960 that the day is going to come soon when the Yiddish language will be taught at major universities in the United States, he would've said, uh, you've got to go to a mental institution; right?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: Right. Sure.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39363/file/110744#t=1222.0,1266.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39363/file/110744/transcript/24149/annotation/35","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Neil Levin: What a crazy idea. If I told him that there would be a revival of, uh -- of -- of, um, Yiddish pop song -- all right. There hasn't been a revival yet of Yiddish art song, but that's only because that's what we're doing in the Milken Archive and one of the things -- but if there would be a revival of interest on 2nd Avenue -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: Mm-hmm. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: -- to the point where every -- or the revival interest in klezmorim, people would've thought we were crazy. That's Europe, that's old, that's grandpa -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: Mm-hmm. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: -- but that happened.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: Not only did it happen here, it happened in Israel, which would've made Ben-Gurion turn over in his grave. Ben-Gurion wanted to see the end of –","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39363/file/110744#t=1266.0,1302.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39363/file/110744/transcript/24149/annotation/36","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Neil Levin: Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: -- European culture, Yiddish culture, uh, culture of the oppressed. He wanted the new Israeli -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: At least -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: -- with new modern Israeli music.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: -- at least on the outside politically, um, it's known that Ben-Gurion spoke Yiddish at home -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: Yeah. No. I know.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: -- but he wouldn't -- uh, that was Mapie thing in the whole -- the -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: But Begin loved, uh, old Yiddish music and he -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: -- would, every year, on Yom Kippur go and read from the book of Iyov. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: So it's -- so -- so it's not -- obviously, there's not something -- the fact that it is European and old actually has now become attractive in every area except this.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39363/file/110744#t=1302.0,1338.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39363/file/110744/transcript/24149/annotation/37","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Alan Dershowitz: That's right.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: Why is that and why -- what -- what could be done about it? I mean, why can't there be a similar and analogous revival of interest in -- in -- in hazzanut and hazzones as there was -- uh, as there has been, uh, undyingly in, uh -- if that's such a word, in, uh -- uh -- uh, things to do with Yiddish musical cultures?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: I think it can happen. Um, I think, um -- uh, cantorial music has to be made a little bit more accessible. Today, to hear a great, great old traditional cantorial, you have to go to an Orthodox shul; you have to sit separately from your wife. My wife doesn't like that. Uh, so, uh, I get resistance from her to go to a shul where she has to sit separate from me. There are some Conservative synagogues now that have great, young hazzanim.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39363/file/110744#t=1338.0,1387.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39363/file/110744/transcript/24149/annotation/38","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Uh -- uh, Ozzie Schwartz is a great, young hazzan who davens in a Conservative synagogue and he's, uh, my wife's, uh, favorite hazzan. She goes to hear him. I go to hear Helfgot. We come from a divided family. I’m, Helfgot, she's, uh -- uh, Conservative. So, uh -- but -- but we -- we both go to hear each other’s hazzan sometimes. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: What about ex- -- exposure -- I mean -- I mean, here's the story, I told you about somebody who, uh, majored in Jewish studies at a major university --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: Right. Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: -- and never heard of Yossele Rosenblatt, which I mean, the most probably -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: Right.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: Well, I mean, um, how do we correct that?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39363/file/110744#t=1387.0,1423.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39363/file/110744/transcript/24149/annotation/39","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Alan Dershowitz: Well, one -- one of the reasons that I have this fantasy of a retirement project where I can write the libretto for an opera based on hazzanishe music and on the life of Gerson Sirota is to bring, uh, Jewish cantorial liturgical music to the attention of a wider audience. I think the world would love this music if they had access to it.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: Okay. This -- you -- this is a brilliant idea and, um, it sort of reminds me when the film Amadeus came out, um, okay, a certain number of people, myself included, had seen the play on Broadway.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39363/file/110744#t=1423.0,1463.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39363/file/110744/transcript/24149/annotation/40","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Alan Dershowitz: I had. Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: Uh, well, my general view is that, unlike most things, the play and the film are -- are equally good, because they're equally different.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: Yeah. No. I agree with that. I agree with that. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: But, um, the amazing thing was that for the first time, 99 percent of the film audiences had never heard of Mozart before and they didn't know Mozart [inaudible], uh, even though, um, my own analysis of things is that people who were at most, high school graduates in the early 1950s knew a lot more than anyone knows of general names. And so you can -- the evidence of that is in old television shows. If Jackie Gleason is making a joke about, uh, Benedict Arnold or -- or -- or Napoleon to an audience that we know –","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39363/file/110744#t=1463.0,1507.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39363/file/110744/transcript/24149/annotation/41","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eALAN DERSHOWITZ:\u003c/strong\u003e Well, I can give you personal experience on that, I've been teaching at Harvard Law School for 50 years. Uh, when I first started teaching, I could make references to Mozart, to Shakespeare, to the bible, to, uh, figures in Dostoyevsky, uh, and other literature; there was a common canon. Um, in the last 20 years of my teaching, I could not do that. If I mentioned Raskolnikov, uh, the students would not know that's Dostoyevsky's character in Crime and Punishment. Even if I mentioned, uh, some Shakespearian characters -- Iago -- the students would not know necessarily where that came from. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eUh, or if I talked about David, uh, sending Bathsheba's husband to the front to be killed, I'd have to explain to my students the -- the common core or the common canon has disappeared. Musically, in a literary way, students are now much more –","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39363/file/110744#t=1507.0,1560.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39363/file/110744/transcript/24149/annotation/42","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Neil Levin: Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: -- computer literate, much more economically literate, but much less literate in the -- in the -- uh, in the arts.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: I -- I don't know -- I mean, I'm glad that I don't have those kind of classes anymore and I did for 30 years at JTS, but I had a student just, uh, 5 or 6 years ago, a very intelligent fellow, graduate of Stanford, majored in economics -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: Mm-hmm. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: -- played the trumpet in his high school band all the way through, I talked for 10 minutes in my, uh, lecture I give every year at that time of the year about Lewandowski -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: Mm-hmm. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: -- and then I'm talking -- at that time, I'm strictly talking about the kind -- the -- the kind of debunking the –","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39363/file/110744#t=1560.0,1597.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39363/file/110744/transcript/24149/annotation/43","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Alan Dershowitz: Mm-hmm. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: -- the -- the -- the -- the simplicity of the notion that, uh, he -- he -- he copied the oratorio style, which -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: Mm-hmm. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: -- there's some truth to -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: Mm-hmm. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: -- but it depends in where -- and he -- he did it in appropriate ways -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: Right.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: -- not inappropriate ways. We get all finished, they were all riveted, including this young man. He's young. I mean, he's not that young, but he's in his mid -- mid-20s, late-20s. He says to me, Dr. Levin, I'm sorry, but I don't understand one word you've just said in the last 10 minutes. What is this word oratorio? Young lady next to him happened to -- she's maybe 23, 24, but she happened to sing in the -- in the children's chorus at the -- at the Met and her father's a Conservative rabbi JTS graduate. She whispers to him, oh, you know, like Handel's Messiah. He says, who? He never -- I said, which didn't you hear about?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39363/file/110744#t=1597.0,1649.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39363/file/110744/transcript/24149/annotation/44","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"He never heard Messiah, he never heard Handel. So I said, okay -- but he's very -- he said, is there something I can read? And I said, sure, I'll give you Grout [ph], uh, see me after class. And I said to him, I'm going to make a guess, how do you get your news? How do you -- uh, have you ev- -- what newspaper do you read? He said, I've never read a newspaper in my life.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eDershowitz: Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: I said, well, that's why you don't know, because you could not possibly be flipping the Sunday paper without seeing Handel's Messiah, Handel's Messiah for the -- all your life. Plus it's not allowed to be sung in school, uh -- uh, at a -- you know, at a Christmas concert [inaudible] and so forth. So -- but what I'm ask- -- since we have -- I mean, here's a young lady who had never heard of Yossele Rosenblatt, which is -- would be like -- as we said, like not hearing of, uh –","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39363/file/110744#t=1649.0,1693.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39363/file/110744/transcript/24149/annotation/45","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Alan Dershowitz: The Beatles.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: Yeah. Anything like that. Uh, so what -- how -- how can we change that, I mean, in terms of education, in terms of, uh -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: We're going through a -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: -- awareness?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: -- we're going through a terrible phase in American higher education today. Um, the, um, students are demanding of the school that we only teach them what they already know. Uh, we -- women want to take women's studies programs. African Americans want to study African American history. Uh, Jews want to take Jewish studies program. Uh, if I were a university president, I would abolish all of those programs and require everybody to take, uh, universal subjects. Uh, if they want to study their own history on the side, that's fine, let them go to what we used to call day schools or afterschool programs. But universities should not be making students comfortable about their own cultures and backgrounds. They should be exposing them to other cultures. Students talk about diversity but that's the last thing many of them want. They want homogeneity. They want everybody to think the same and the cannon has been attacked. Why should we read about dead men? We want to read about people that makes us comfortable, with whom we can identify. We are going through a major educational crisis that threatens to really reduce America to the educational level of a third world country","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39363/file/110744#t=1693.0,1787.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39363/file/110744/transcript/24149/annotation/46","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eNEIL LEVIN:\u003c/strong\u003e I -- I couldn't agree with you more personally. The question is universities still represent -- I mean, there's no alternative to a university; is there?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39363/file/110744#t=1787.0,1796.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39363/file/110744/transcript/24149/annotation/47","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Alan Dershowitz: I think there will develop, over time, alternatives to the current politically correct universities. Somebody's going to become the president of some major university. It -- it -- it -- it could've been Larry Summers, but he became a victim of political correctness who will put his -- draw a red line in the sand and say, no, this is not what the university states.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: Have the guts. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: Uh, we are not daycare centers in which we coddle and take care and make sure you don't cry. We are places that challenge every idea you have ever had and make you confront, uh, all of the challenges that you will in -- in real life. There will be a university that does that and students will flock to that university. It will become the number one university in the world.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39363/file/110744#t=1796.0,1839.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39363/file/110744/transcript/24149/annotation/48","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Neil Levin: You're an optimist?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: I'm an optimist that it will start. Uh, where it goes after that, I don't know, but some school has to have the courage to stand up to these brats, to these spoiled children who are demanding that they not be educated. They don't want to be educated, they want to be comforted and that's not the role of a university.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: You -- you -- I -- I'm going to agree with you. Unfortunately, many of my so-called colleagues don't. And in the Jewish world, it's the same thing, we now have, at the Jewish Theological Seminary, which was a -- uh, where I went -- I went to a rabbinical school, actually, the first of the 3 years of the six-year program just -- just for the hell of it, just to be educated. And then I was getting my master's at the same time at Columbia and I -- I didn't tell either one that I was doing that. But in those cases, we still, uh -- uh -- uh, a great institution with great minds, with great, uh -- uh, it was never –","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39363/file/110744#t=1839.0,1893.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39363/file/110744/transcript/24149/annotation/49","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"As you know, it was never founded to be non-Orthodox and so forth. But now, rabbinical school is not only four years, four days a week, not six days a week and not seven years -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: Mm-hmm. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: -- there is not one required semester of Jewish -- Jewish history or Jewish literature -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: Mm-hmm. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: -- not one. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: Mm-hmm. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: Um, and so musically, let's talk about the -- well, so what's the analogy cantorial now that -- look, my -- my -- our feelings at Milken Archive was, uh, forget Jewish institutions –","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39363/file/110744#t=1893.0,1932.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39363/file/110744/transcript/24149/annotation/50","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Alan Dershowitz: Mm-hmm. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: -- let's -- let's, uh, look for a -- a -- for a -- after all, a -- a -- for a university center. There's a center for every -- everything -- for everything else, legitimately, not -- not politically involved or politically cute or anything. Uh, what do you think of that idea, of -- of a university center for Jewish music studies, which would include, uh -- uh, a heavy part of a cantorial, uh, history and repertoire and so forth, PhDs in Jewish music?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: Uh, no. I think it would be great to have a center for Jewish musical studies if it were academically rigorous, uh, and not politically correct, if it were willing to be -- apply critical analysis, uh, and, uh, go back and look at the real history and look at how music reflected different political views at different times and what function it served in uniting and, uh, bringing together, uh -- uh, Jews of different backgrounds. Um, I think it could serve a very, very useful purpose, but it has to be independent, academically rigorous and part of a general, critical curriculum.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39363/file/110744#t=1932.0,2004.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39363/file/110744/transcript/24149/annotation/51","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Neil Levin: Would you -- could you -- do you think that we might be able to, uh, revive among other things? Because hazzones is not the only -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: Mm-hmm. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: -- and we haven't talked about Yiddish folk song, we have talked about Sephardi and all that -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: Mm-hmm. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: -- but -- but obviously, hazzanos is one of the major -- the bottom line is that the statistic I balked at until I -- when I first read in, I don't remember what, that in the year 1904 or '05 or whatever you want, pick something like that, that something as close to 98 percent of the world's population had Yiddish as their primary language. Now, at first, I thought, well, that can't be, but Yemenite Jews -- yeah. But Yemenite Jews was 60,000 Jews. It's been romanticized, which -- but the fact is –","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39363/file/110744#t=2004.0,2046.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39363/file/110744/transcript/24149/annotation/52","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Alan Dershowitz: Look -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: -- [inaudible] -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: -- peo- -- well, people think about the Shoah, the Holocaust as tragically having killed six million Jews and that's part of the story. The other part of the story is they tried to destroy one of the greatest civilizations in the history of humankind and that is, uh, Eastern European Yiddish civilization; a civilization that had a great literature, a great, uh, liturgy, uh, great music, uh, great art, great culinary, uh, you name it. It had all the aspects of one of the great civilizations in the world and there was an effort to destroy it. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAnd for a while, it looked like that effort would succeed and it's absolutely important to try to bring that culture back, not only for historical reasons to remind the world of what the culture was, but to move forward and to create new cantorial music, new Yiddish, uh, literature, new, uh, manifestations of an old culture. So I think there's plenty of opportunity to do that.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39363/file/110744#t=2046.0,2107.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39363/file/110744/transcript/24149/annotation/53","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Neil Levin: You mentioned, for example, Gershon Sirota -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: Mm-hmm. Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: -- who, uh, was one -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: Mm-hmm. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: -- obviously, you think of it as I do, one of the great -- certainly, the big 10 -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: Right.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: -- of -- of all time and yet, there is no -- uh, there's no biography -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: Mm-hmm. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: -- there's -- there should be several by now. There's no biography. I'm working on a biography now of -- of -- uh, of Solomon Sulzer, the beginning of it all, uh -- uh, contrary to a lot of mistaken notions –","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39363/file/110744#t=2107.0,2137.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39363/file/110744/transcript/24149/annotation/54","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Alan Dershowitz: Mm-hmm. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: -- uh, everything. I mean, Gershon Sirota was a Sulzerized hazzan. By the fact that he could read music, he was a Sulzerized hazzan.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: There would be -- uh, there would be a great book that could be produced today and that is a history of Jewish cantorial music, which would come with CDs illustrative of it and could really go deep into the history of what the sources of the music -- obviously, some of the music was borrowed, we know that; uh, some of the music was inspired by secular music or Christian music; some of the music was completely and totally, uh, original and, um, different periods of time, different regions in Europe.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39363/file/110744#t=2137.0,2178.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39363/file/110744/transcript/24149/annotation/55","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"It would be fantastic to get a complete history with illustrative recordings that you could listen to as you're reading the history.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: All right. Now, taking that line, uh, then -- the- -- then we -- we really should have, I hate to use the word, but you know what I mean, a textbook or a text type of a book that we could use to teach class.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: Right. Oh, of course.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: There's no -- there's no such book, as you know.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: I know. I know. Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: So you -- you would say that's a valuable thing that would promote?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: I would say it'd be extraordinarily valuable to come up with a textbook, uh -- uh, a kind of -- the biography of hazzanut, uh, which would have all the elements, all the historical roots and could be used A, to teach students, B, to educate adults and C, to inspire, uh, people to come back to listening to cantorial music and to create new cantorial music.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39363/file/110744#t=2178.0,2230.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39363/file/110744/transcript/24149/annotation/56","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Neil Levin: Do you think that -- uh, well, I -- you seem to agree with me, but you don't have to, that that would inspire. There's no inherent reason that because somebody is a younger generation that he can't fall in love with -- with something. It's art, it's music; do you agree with me?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: When I -- yeah. When I bring my, uh, son -- I have, uh, three children where I have one son who comes with me from time to time to the synagogue and he's amazed when he hears hazzonishe music. I mean, he's, you know, very familiar with music, but, uh, he loves it and, uh -- uh, and -- and -- and sometimes says, why don't -- why don't you bring me more often? Well, I thought he would resist.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: Well, I, um -- I have to tell you, you know, the -- some -- these CDs that I, uh -- uh -- uh, have given you and I -- I hope you will, you know, enjoy them, uh –","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39363/file/110744#t=2230.0,2273.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39363/file/110744/transcript/24149/annotation/57","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Alan Dershowitz: I will.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: -- these are just some of many that have, the Milken Archive has divided into 20 volumes -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: Mm-hmm. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: -- and each volume -- the minute I got onboard, this is almost -- well, look, it's going to be 25 years old this year, but, uh, it was 23 years old and I -- in discussion with Jonathan Sarna, uh, we just -- he gave me -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: Mm-hmm. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: -- his -- uh, I have to give him credit for the idea, let's divide the volumes according -- as much as possible according to historical themes rather than -- than -- than musical genres where possible.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: Mm-hmm.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39363/file/110744#t=2273.0,2302.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39363/file/110744/transcript/24149/annotation/58","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Neil Levin: So anyway, vo- -- volume 14 is traditional hazzones, they're not other aspects of synagogue music or otherwise and we've recorded dozens and dozens of CDs like this and albums. Now the question is, and some people on the editorial board say, oh, I don't know if it's necessary and some people say it's very important, so I'm curious what you think, because we have a great editorial board and we're all a team, we -- we -- shouldn't we have -- I've been collecting now hundreds and hundreds -- I mean, thousands of examples of the masters themselves, the archive of them, actually, Gershon Sirota, people earlier, the first recordings of any hazzons, uh, in America.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: Mm-hmm. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: Yeshayahu Maizel was the first -- the first attempt to bring a serious hazzan to America really that worked -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: Mm-hmm.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39363/file/110744#t=2302.0,2348.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39363/file/110744/transcript/24149/annotation/59","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Neil Levin: -- because before that, we didn't have -- no money -- the money for it.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: Mm-hmm. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: And even that didn't work. Do you think that's a valuable part to hear the actual voices [inaudible]?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: Oh, of course. Oh, there's no question. When you hear the actual voices, you hear something more than just singing, you hear the depth of feeling that the hazzan had; uh, you hear the -- the crying, uh, aspect of it. And when you hear, for example, European hazzanim singing during the '30s, you can feel what was going on, that something terrible was about to happen. It manifests itself in the davenning and I think hearing the original voices is absolutely critical, because it conveys a very, very different sense. Um, people sing according to the way the world is at that time and, uh, singing is a very important manifestation of history.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39363/file/110744#t=2348.0,2406.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39363/file/110744/transcript/24149/annotation/60","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Neil Levin: Even the v- -- even the timbre of the voice; wouldn't you say?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: Absolutely, without a doubt.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: Ev- -- even in opera. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: I mean, um, I often tell -- again, it depends if the students understand what I'm talking about or not, but -- because believe it or not, Ani Kavafian -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: Mm-hmm. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: -- gave a master class, uh -- it was in Kentucky or Tennessee, but it doesn't matter. I mean -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: Mm-hmm. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: -- it was, uh, peop- -- people getting master's degree in violin -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: Mm-hmm. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: -- and there were students in that class who had never heard the name Jascha Heifetz. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: Right. It's -- it's amazing.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: They knew Joshua Bell, but they'd never heard Jascha Heifetz -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: Right. No.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: -- and I had a student who graduated from, uh, Manhattan School of Music in opera workshop and voice –","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39363/file/110744#t=2406.0,2444.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39363/file/110744/transcript/24149/annotation/61","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Alan Dershowitz: Mm-hmm. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: -- and she had never heard the name Renata Tebaldi, she -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: Mm-hmm. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: But Even Tebaldi's voice was very different from -- it's what you're talking about.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: Oh, yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: If you go back to the birdlike, uh, earlier than [inaudible], but, you know, uh, Galakerzi [ph] for example, but -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: Yeah. Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: -- but it's a different timbre -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: No pressure.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: -- and would you say that -- that analogy works?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: It works -- I think that analogy works perfectly. I think that different times during Jewish history, different styles of hazzonershe singing emerge. Um, you hear Kwartin, uh, there is a plaintiff quality that is the \"oy vey\" that he puts into the davenning. He's reflecting the feelings of his congregation. This was a period of “oy vey” and, uh, if it's not going to be heard in the davenning, where else will it be heard?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39363/file/110744#t=2444.0,2491.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39363/file/110744/transcript/24149/annotation/62","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"When I used to daven in shul, my -- my grandmother would sit, uh -- uh, in the women's section, but looking down at me and I can hear her crying, uh, at certain points in the davenning and it would remind her of things or bring fear to her mind. And, uh, so davenning is as close as you come to an intimate form of your -- your talking to God.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: The -- the same would apply -- would -- would you -- would you think the same would apply to other forms of like, for example, Yiddish theater music on 2nd Avenue or -- or something?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: Theater is pretend.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: So I think that although you're going to hear some reflection, theater is pretend, hazzanut is not pretending. I can spot a pretending hazzan a mile away. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: Mm-hmm.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39363/file/110744#t=2491.0,2537.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39363/file/110744/transcript/24149/annotation/63","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Alan Dershowitz: Uh, one of the reasons I love Helfgot is he's not singing; he's davening. He's not performing, he is in an intimate relationship with God and with his congregation. But when I hear a performer, and I've been to, uh, shuls where hazzanim are performing and they're looking at their watch to see how quickly they can finish, I can spot them a mile away.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: You're talking about historical connection in terms of davenning. Uh, it connects us with our history.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: Mm-hmm. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: And I heard you -- I can't remember how many -- it was -- it was right after your Jefferson book came out –","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39363/file/110744#t=2537.0,2569.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39363/file/110744/transcript/24149/annotation/64","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Alan Dershowitz: Mm-hmm. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: -- uh -- uh, you did an interview with Milt Rosenberg --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: Right.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: -- and, um, he -- by the way, if you could put me in touch with him, uh -- uh -- uh, I'm trying to find two -- two shows that he did that I -- later, after we're finished, that I -- he -- he's doing a -- you know, he's 99, he's doing this [inaudible] -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: An odd thing. Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: -- it's a very small band -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: I know. I've done -- I've done that [inaudible].\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: -- uh, you can't hear it, um, because unless I'm imagining it, I'm remembering two programs that -- that he did, but one in particular, years ago and I could swear -- maybe I'm wrong, maybe it wasn't he who do it. It was about a book -- it had to do with the AIDS thing and it was called, uh -- uh, Tainted Blood. Do you re- -- okay. And, uh, just don't ask me. Anyway, I heard the interview with you and if -- if you remember, what he said there was that he, as someone who was not, uh, whatever the word \"religious\" really means is, but he says, but believe it or -- remember he said, believe it or not, I love to daven?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39363/file/110744#t=2569.0,2626.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39363/file/110744/transcript/24149/annotation/65","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Alan Dershowitz: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: He said -- and -- and I perked up, because [inaudible] -- and he said, because it connects -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: Well, Arthur Goldberg with whom I was a law clerk, um, who was a very secular Jew loved to daven.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: Really?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: Uh, it reminded him, uh, of the little shul he went to with his grandparents. He was the eighth of young, uh, children and his -- and his -- his -- his parents, uh, and he loved to daven. He -- and he had a very thick Eastern European accent when he davened. Uh, I remember when he met my wife, whose name is Caroline Cohen, he said, oh, she's a [Hebrew]. I couldn't even get the word out, but he said Cohen in a way that was almost unrecognizable to me.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39363/file/110744#t=2626.0,2666.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39363/file/110744/transcript/24149/annotation/66","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Neil Levin: Was he [inaudible], uh -- uh -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: He must've been a Galitzianer.\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: Um, I'm not sure, but I think he was a Galitzianer.\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: Barukh attau… \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, my parents -- my grandparents will all -- all go [inaudible]. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: But they did the -- the nusaḥ sephard, but they -- but they were Galitzianers. Right.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: So you -- you grew up knowing the nusaḥ sephard?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: Yeah. Sure.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: Keter and all that? \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: Yeah.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39363/file/110744#t=2666.0,2688.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39363/file/110744/transcript/24149/annotation/67","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Neil Levin: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Um, so well, what do you think ab- -- I mean, where -- where does information -- where does knowledge, where does it come in for appreciation of -- of Jewish music, cantorial music -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: Well -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: -- in terms of -- of -- of knowledge about it?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: -- there -- there are really two ways. One, it has to start either at a very young age and become part of your upbringing or bringing up. I was so fortunate to have cantorial music all through my early life and I've had friends who have developed it as an acquired taste. They'd never heard cantorial music. I have two friends now, uh, who love cantorial music, one of them converted to Judaism, wasn't brought up Jewish loves cantorial music. He loves music and for him, cantorial music was just part of it. And another friend who was brought up as a secular Jew and as a musician and has fallen in love with cantorial music and, um, sometimes it happens through klezmer, which is very popular.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39363/file/110744#t=2688.0,2744.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39363/file/110744/transcript/24149/annotation/68","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"For example, when I was married, uh, almost 30 years ago, uh, we married in Charleston, South Carolina where my wife is from. We wanted to have a klezmer band, because our first date had been to hear a klezmer, uh, concert, uh, the -- the Boston, uh, great klezmer group. And so we found a klezmer group in North Carolina and we imported them to South Carolina and it really made the wedding, it was wonderful. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: So if -- if we -- uh, if we had classes available -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: Sure.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: -- with -- with textbook materials with, uh -- uh -- uh -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: And with hazzanim, uh, who would come and guest perform, sure, that would be -- that would be great. So far, that's not been part largely of Jewish studies programs.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: It hasn't been part at all and that's what –","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39363/file/110744#t=2744.0,2790.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39363/file/110744/transcript/24149/annotation/69","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Alan Dershowitz: And I think that has to become part of Jewish studies programs and it's part of renewing the history, part of connecting intellectually and emotionally together at the same time. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: Can you see, for example, going back to -- to Sirota and, uh -- uh, and -- and each one of the merits, uh, a serious PhD, uh, dissertation probably, uh, one could get a degree in -- you can do it in everything else now.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: Oh, you could -- clearly, um, schools that have Jewish studies programs would permit a PhD on a great -- great hazzan, uh, or [inaudible] –","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39363/file/110744#t=2790.0,2824.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39363/file/110744/transcript/24149/annotation/70","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Neil Levin: But there's no way to do that unless we have a cen- -- of course, if we had a center for Jewish music studies, then you'd have the -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: Right. Yeah. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: -- uh, we could come up with dozens of -- even -- even the history of -- but where did it all come from? I mean, this is a big question. For example, what was the influence of the gypsy -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: Mm-hmm. Sure.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: -- uh -- uh, of gypsy music?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: Sure.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: Uh, are you allowed to say gypsy now? No. I'm kidding.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: Romanov -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: No. I'm -- I'm saying gypsy.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: Yeah. Right. Yeah. Well, that's the way it was described, obviously --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: Yeah. Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: -- um, but, uh, there were so many different influences on -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: So many.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: -- on Jewish music.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: And to what extent? I mean, all this needs to be, uh, [inaudible].","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39363/file/110744#t=2824.0,2858.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39363/file/110744/transcript/24149/annotation/71","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Alan Dershowitz: You know, there were all these rumors too. I mean, the myth, who knows if it's true that Beethoven heard Kol Nidrei and may have used it as part of the -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: Uh, I don't think so.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: -- instrumentation -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: No. And that's a -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: [inaudible] \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: -- that's a myth, because Jews have this obsession -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: Oh, of course.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: -- about claiming everybody and -- and -- and -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: Right. But -- but those four notes at the beginning are very reminiscent, uh -- uh -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: I know, but the -- they're just a -- the [inaudible] --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: Of course, they're four notes. Uh, right.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: -- the scale. You know, it's the whole -- the whole Hatikva thing. I mean, I -- I -- I'll send you my article about –","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39363/file/110744#t=2858.0,2886.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39363/file/110744/transcript/24149/annotation/72","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Alan Dershowitz: Well, we know -- we know Hatikva, it was derived from, uh -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: He was a Po- -- uh, a Romanian folk song.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: Right. Right. But -- and -- and -- which was then borrowed by Smetana.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: Well -- but I mean, I don't know if it was borrowed by Smetana, because, uh, see, the question is this, I mean, once you do a poll -- I mean, I've done informal polls, everyone who hears the Moldau, it could be the first time, whatever, at a summer music festival or whatever, the one -- those -- well, every- -- everyone who says – Hatikvah is Jewish.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: Mm-hmm. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: So it's -- it's a question of association -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: Of course. Of course.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: -- because it's just the first [inaudible] -- because my goodness, when people go to -- to, uh -- uh, an Anglican church and hear, “let all mortal flesh keep silent”, which is the same thing –","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39363/file/110744#t=2886.0,2924.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39363/file/110744/transcript/24149/annotation/73","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Alan Dershowitz: Mm-hmm.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: -- they don't think that, because -- so, um, the question is, what, um -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: But -- but musical influences can be very unconscious. Um, I, uh, was asked to take a case some years ago where a religious music writer had written a religious song, which was parallel in every way to, uh, Phantom of the Opera and there was an argument that Phantom of the Opera had -- had borrowed it and there was a jury trial and the jury ruled against them on that.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: Against who?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: Uh, against the young man who had written, uh, [singing]. It was the same notes, but of course, in the Phantom, it's played with a big organ and, uh, it -- and -- and for the religious song, it was just, you know, notes on a piano.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39363/file/110744#t=2924.0,2973.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39363/file/110744/transcript/24149/annotation/74","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Neil Levin: Who would -- who -- who would be your big 10 list of -- of hazzanim?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: My big 10 list, let's start with modern and go backward. Um, I'd certainly put Helfgot very high on -- on that list. I'd put, uh, Yossi Malovany -- on that list. Um -- um, both Moshe and David Koussevitzky for different reasons, uh, Yossele Rosenblatt, Kwartin, Sirota, Pinchik. Um, I'm probably leaving some off, but, uh, if I could have them -- if I ever go to heaven, I would like to have a concert with those folks, uh -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: What do you think of Moshe David Steinberg? \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: Well, I don't know his music as well and, uh -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: Do you have -- uh, do you have recordings of -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: I don't. I don't.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: That's like -- that's like famous -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: And you know, I have to add one more person that you're going to find very controversial, if you talk about influencer on -- on Jewish music, you cannot, uh, leave out, um -- uh, Shl- -- you know, Shlomo Carlebach. You just can't leave him out. Uh, you wouldn't call him a hazzan –","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39363/file/110744#t=2973.0,3038.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39363/file/110744/transcript/24149/annotation/75","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Neil Levin: No.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: -- but he is a fantastic composer of liturgical music that is now borrowed by hazzanim without even realizing it.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: [inaudible] \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: I have heard his melodies sung in Moscow, in Hong Kong, in Johannesburg, in Cape Town, uh, and all over the United States at weddings, in Paris. Uh, it's just -- he has become the troubadour for modern -- uh, for many, many modern congregations. There are now Carlebach synagogues -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: Oh, yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: -- Carlebach Minyanim. Uh, I knew him, um, and I even gave him legal advice on one or two occasions -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: -- uh, which he generally didn't take and didn't protect his music as well as he might have -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: Yeah. Yeah.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39363/file/110744#t=3038.0,3085.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39363/file/110744/transcript/24149/annotation/76","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Alan Dershowitz: -- but, uh, great, great influence on contemporary Jewish music.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: You are, uh, known for having a -- an important record collection of hazzanos. What kind of -- how -- how -- how broad is it? What is it -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: No. I -- I would say I have a -- compared to others, a mediocre record, uh, collection. You know, I collected all my life, uh, and I never throw anything out. So, you know, mostly, it's fairly conventional and, uh, most of it has been re-recorded by the Milken Archives. So I don't have anything that's -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: Well, no. We have yet to -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: -- particularly unique, uh -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: -- you know, uh -- uh, to -- do you have any, uh, recording -- private recordings of, uh -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: Yes. Um, I do. I have some Koussevitzky private recordings. I also have some Richard Tucker, um, opera private, uh, recordings. Uh, you know, people would bring little tape recorders –","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39363/file/110744#t=3085.0,3139.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39363/file/110744/transcript/24149/annotation/77","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Neil Levin: Yeah. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: -- to the shul.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: Well, for example, there is, um -- there is a -- a -- and I -- I lost track about -- I didn't track it down yet, but I -- I know how to -- may- -- maybe you do. Uh, Pinchik, somebody recorded his whole Pesach, davenning and shacharit--\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: Oh, that's really cheating, because it's muksah. You know, you can't have a tape recorder -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: I know, but somebody just -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: -- during yontif.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: -- everybody did it -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: -- in -- in Philadelphia -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: Right.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: -- for some -- one year -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: -- and it -- it's around somewhere.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I never heard it. I never heard it.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: [inaudible] like that, just like there's the pir- -- the -- the -- the -- the permitted recording of the whole Kol Nidrei service, uh, in Moscow. You know, you have that one from 1956 –","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39363/file/110744#t=3139.0,3174.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39363/file/110744/transcript/24149/annotation/78","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Alan Dershowitz: Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: -- or something.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: Right. Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: Yeah. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: And of course, there's the great, uh, Shabbos in Warsaw recording of, uh, Sirota -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: Sirota.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: -- but that was unauthorized recording probably [inaudible].\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: Right. That wasn't done on Shabbos.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: No. No. Of course not. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: But there are -- there are emerging, um, I guess, you know, pirate recordings of -- uh -- uh, but a lot of times, they came from the sound system too.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: One of my great ethical dilemmas that I face on Shabbos is for me, Shabbos is a day of rest and what do I love to do on Shabbos? If a hazzan is davenning, I love to go hear him, but if he's not, I like to listen to cantorial music, but all of the records say, please do not play on Shabbos, uh, because the recording artists don't want you to play them on Shabbos, but that's my day of rest, that's what I want to listen to.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39363/file/110744#t=3174.0,3219.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39363/file/110744/transcript/24149/annotation/79","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Neil Levin: Well, I can get you off the -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: So it's an ethical confro- -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: -- I can get you off the hook here, because the -- the f- -- they -- they are saying it, and you'll appreciate this, to get themselves off the hook.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: Of course, I understand that.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: So they've done their job.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: That doesn't mean you can't do it.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: Right. I understand. That's the attitude I've taken -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: No. That -- that's -- that's, uh -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: -- but, uh, well, thank you, hazzan, thank you, rabbi, I appreciate your advice -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: -- but you're not my mother. And so I'm going to listen. I'd love to be able to contribute to writing an opera which glorified, um, Jewish liturgical music. I wish there'd be a show that would deal with the life of one of the great, uh, hazzanim. And, uh, think of, you know, what Fiddler on the Roof did –","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39363/file/110744#t=3219.0,3255.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39363/file/110744/transcript/24149/annotation/80","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Neil Levin: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: -- just to revive kind of nostalgic Jewish culture in music. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: An opera like this would be simil- -- analogous in some ways to what happened when I started to talk about Amadeus, the film.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: Yeah. Sure.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: For the first time, 95 percent of the people heard Mozart. Now, imagine hearing it and the way it was performed -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: Of course, yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: -- coming on surround system. Now, what if people could hear, Jew and non-Jew alike -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: Of course.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: -- an opera, a film, a th- -- hearing in that within the course of your opera -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: Of course.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: -- you have reenactments -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: Of course. Of course.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39363/file/110744#t=3255.0,3286.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39363/file/110744/transcript/24149/annotation/81","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Neil Levin: -- but you're not going to have a little [inaudible] --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: The name of my opera is Hineini, Here I Am -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: -- uh, here I am, uh, and it's all about the brave decision that, uh, Sirota made, um, and I used the irony of ‘here I stand before you humble and without merit’ and he was a man who had great merit and, uh, stayed with his congregation and, uh -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: And now you have people hearing the Metropolitan Opera Chorus -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: Right.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: --singing this -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: Right.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: -- and the children's chorus doing -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: Right. Right.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: -- the SA and the -- and -- and -- and the TB of -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: And you know what has another impact, of course, I knew about Mozart when I saw Amadeus, I became a fan of Solarian. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: For a while, that was -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: Uh, he was pretty good.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39363/file/110744#t=3286.0,3322.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39363/file/110744/transcript/24149/annotation/82","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Neil Levin: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: He may not have been a Mozart -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: -- but I went back and listened to some of his music.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: It changed everybody. It didn't last, fortunately --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: Yeah. Yeah. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: -- unfortunately. The whole Mozart thing didn't last, but for a few years, the educated people. So I mean, I would encourage you -- uh, if there's anything I can do to -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: I'm going to try my best. I just need -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: -- to, uh, work with you -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: -- time -- time. That's the enemy of, uh, old age.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: You know -- uh, yeah. But we're not there yet, but, uh, you might -- I mean, I can think of several composers who -- if you wouldn't mind, uh -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: Sure.\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: -- setting up, uh, with –","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39363/file/110744#t=3322.0,3353.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39363/file/110744/transcript/24149/annotation/83","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Alan Dershowitz: Give me some names. I'd -- I'll see if I can get -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: And I'll tell you why -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: Yo-Yo Ma has given me some suggested names -- Yo-Yo is a friend of mine.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: Who did he suggest?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: Yo-Yo is a friend of mine.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: Jewish composers --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: Um, I'm trying to remember his name now. The guy lives in Newton, uh, who's, uh, a Latino Jew. Uh, I'm thinking of his name and I can't remember his name. Uh -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: I mean, there are certain ones that I -- I've worked directly with and -- and -- and written operas already on Jewish subjects -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: -- and are into -- and, uh -- um, Ofer Ben-Amots would be one and -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: Mm-hmm.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39363/file/110744#t=3353.0,3380.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39363/file/110744/transcript/24149/annotation/84","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Neil Levin: -- and [inaudible] -- I mean, because he will also work with you. He's not going to say, this is my business, you don't tell me what to do.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: Yeah. Yeah. I know. If you could just give me a list -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: Yeah. Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: -- that would be great. I want to -- I want to focus my concentration first on the story. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: On the story. Yeah. Yeah. Get your -- your -- your story line -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: Yeah. Yeah. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: -- and, uh -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: I have the story line, I just have to focus more on --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: The actual libretto.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: -- you know, libretto. Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: And things that you would like -- well -- well, to be heard, certainly the [SOUNDS LIKE kava koras], but –","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39363/file/110744#t=3380.0,3404.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39363/file/110744/transcript/24149/annotation/85","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eALAN DERSHOWITZ:\u003c/strong\u003e Well, I mean, the -- the outline of the opera is, uh, it starts at, uh, Hineini uh, on, uh, the -- the -- the Rosh Hashanah service, um, in Warsaw in a period of time when the -- the Nazis were establishing the ghetto. And, uh, it's three acts and each of the three acts represents a Jewish holiday and the first act represents the Yomim Noraim and Rosh Hashanah, Yom Kippur. The second act represents Hanukkah, uh, and there's a joyous home where the decision is made and the third -- third act represents, uh, Pesach, the Passover seder where they destroyed the ghetto, essentially.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39363/file/110744#t=3404.0,3446.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39363/file/110744/transcript/24149/annotation/86","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"So, um -- and so I would be using music, um, but obviously, music that would be the basis, but not -- uh, it would be developed -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: It could be woven in.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: -- but, uh, you know, the -- obviously, the -- the Hineini and -- and the, uh -- uh, various aspects of the Rosh Hashanah Yom Kippur service unetaneh tokef, um, clearly and, um -- and then the Passover, uh, seder, there would be, uh -- uh, some -- some, uh, melodies that are traditional in the Passover seder as well.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: The second seder scene in opera.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: Right. Right. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: But I mean, you know, I -- when I heard about that, I think it's phenomenal \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: Well, it'd probably be the -- the eighth or ninth if you consider the Last Supper to be a seder. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: No. I don't.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39363/file/110744#t=3446.0,3491.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39363/file/110744/transcript/24149/annotation/87","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Alan Dershowitz: Uh, then -- then there'd probably be a few more. Right.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: But I mean, uh, yeah, this -- this -- uh, if there's anything -- uh, I'll get you that [inaudible] --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: Okay. I'd love to have a list of -- of people. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: -- recording and of pictures and, uh -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: Anymore questions about me and hazzanut and my family -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: Yes.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: -- and my history, uh -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: Tell me about your -- your -- your family and hazzanes. Your -- your -- you talked about your son. Um, anybody sing in a choir -- in a synagogue choir in your -- in your family?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: I was the only one in my family to sing in a synagogue choir. My brother never did, um, I don't know of any cousins who did. Uh, I didn't necessarily have the best voice in my family, but I was interested in hazzanishe music and, um, I just wanted to be part of it. And the idea that I could sing counterpoint to one of the -- two of the great hazzanim –","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39363/file/110744#t=3491.0,3536.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39363/file/110744/transcript/24149/annotation/88","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Neil Levin: Uh-huh.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: -- was, for me, a terrific thrill.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: Well, you're talking about Chagy and -- and, uh -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: And Koussevitzky. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: -- and Koussevitzky?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: Do you -- you -- you heard Koussevitzky up until his last year there?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: I was not in his choir, but I heard him.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: No. No. But you heard him. Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: Oh, yeah. No. My parents -- the Young Israel and Temple Beth-El merged at some point -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: Right.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: -- and my parents, uh, became members of Young Israel Beth-El.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: When did it -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: Um, it was after Koussevitzky, I think.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: Yeah. I thought it was.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: Uh, it was, but -- but I went and heard him all the time. Whenever -- whenever I got back to Borough Park, and I would get back to Borough Park for all the Jewish holidays, I would always get to see, uh, Moshe Koussevitzky. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: What about Choir Masters apart from Ben Friedman, did you –","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39363/file/110744#t=3536.0,3574.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39363/file/110744/transcript/24149/annotation/89","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Alan Dershowitz: The only one I really knew was Ben Friedman and of course, the current ones, uh, Russell Ger, uh, who was very good --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: No. I mean, from the -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: [inaudible] \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: -- I -- I -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: I didn't know that. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: Did you ever hear -- did they ever -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: You know, we -- we -- they were not well known. Uh, the -- the -- their names were not -- were not -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: Oscar Julius or Sam Sterner or -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: No. Their names were not well known. Secunda, of course, he -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: Oh, tell me about Secunda. Tell me about Secunda.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: -- [inaudible] -- um, well, he, um, was a renowned figure, of course, already by that point and time, but he would occasionally show up, um, because he was a friend of Mr. Ostrow. And he would occasionally show up at, uh, the Yeshiva.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39363/file/110744#t=3574.0,3611.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39363/file/110744/transcript/24149/annotation/90","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Neil Levin: This was when he was a teacher already?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: This would've been in the -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: Uh, obviously, it's not when he was a boy. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: -- 40s. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: No. This would've been in the '40s --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: Yeah. Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: -- uh, in the earl- -- in the '50s. Yeah. Yeah. And there were other, uh, eminent, uh, composers and conductors that would pass through, because, uh, singing -- Jewish singing was a very important part of our education, particularly in Etz Chaim Yeshiva and also in camp. When we went to Jewish camp -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: What camps did you go to?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: I went to -- to many, uh, but, um, I went to Camp Maple Lake where Jack Ostrow was the music director and he would teach us all the new songs. He would know the new melodies from Israel. I remember he -- I think it was he who taught us the new -- you know, the Avinu Malkeinu that Barbara Streisand made -- made famous.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: Max Janowski’s -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: [singing]","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39363/file/110744#t=3611.0,3656.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39363/file/110744/transcript/24149/annotation/91","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Neil Levin: Four notes. Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: So, uh, we learned those, we learned the new, uh -- um, Me’al Pisgat Har Hatzofim. I remember hearing that new melody. Uh, so we -- we were kind of current. We had a pretty good Jewish music education in Yeshiva Etz Chaim. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: It's not true today in yeshiva.\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: No. Oh, no. No. No.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: Which -- which it brings me -- so you're talking -- you're talking about a rational, that -- that -- because I believe there -- there was such a thing as rational orthodoxy. I mean -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: Well, there still is.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: Yeah.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39363/file/110744#t=3656.0,3690.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39363/file/110744/transcript/24149/annotation/92","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Alan Dershowitz: You know, there is -- there is modern rational orthodoxy.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: Yeah. Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: You see it in Boston and in the Maimonides school. You see it in Ramaz, here, you see it in some of the schools in New Jersey.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: What hazzan did you encounter in Boston in all the years that you were at Harvard?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: There was a hazzan named Osbourne. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: Osbourne was my student. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: I listened to -- I loved him.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: He's a convert.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: Right. Right.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: Uh, he bec- -- took it very seriously. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: Uh, and, um, you know, I didn't -- I -- for me, hazzanut was New York -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: -- and it's when I came back to New York and I would ask around, who was the hazzan.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39363/file/110744#t=3690.0,3727.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39363/file/110744/transcript/24149/annotation/93","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Neil Levin: Uh, did -- did you, uh, meet Gregor Shelkan in, uh, Boston?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: Uh, I did, but, uh, ha- -- have no real memory.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: Right. He was a bass -- uh, he sang in the choir. He was a good hazzan. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: He sang in the choir in Vienna before the war.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: Right.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: Uh -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: Oh, and of course, one of my great experiences was to go to Budapest and hear [SOUNDS LIKE Kobax]. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: Oh, yeah. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: Uh, what a congrega- -- what a choir. So it was fascinating. So I -- I go to -- to hear him, I think it was maybe on a Friday night or a Shabbos, I don't remember now, but he had this deep basso profondo, this fantastic voice, uh, that resonated and -- and -- and, uh -- and the great choir and then the next day, I went to a church to hear the Mozart Requiem and, um, I was told that many of the same people were in the choir, uh, that the choir were not all Jewish –","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39363/file/110744#t=3727.0,3777.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39363/file/110744/transcript/24149/annotation/94","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Neil Levin: Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: -- uh, in the, uh -- in -- in the great, uh, Doheny Street, uh, Synagogue. And I still have the recording. I still play the recording all the time of the Doheny Street, uh, congregation. He was fantastic.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: I think that that was true in many cities in Eastern Europe without it being officially allowed.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: Mm-hmm. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: Uh, Kwartin, uh, actually, uh -- because you -- you -- as you know, probably the -- the synagogue's very near the -- the -- the opera house in Saint Petersburg and, uh, I think Chaliapin, when he came to America -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: Wow.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: -- Chaliapin -- oh, they alI used to go to your hazzanim. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: Of course. Why not. Why not.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: This goes back to Sulzer when -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: Right.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: -- when -- when it was a tourist attraction.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: Yeah. Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: Uh, people like -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: Well, I -- I go to hear great -- great, uh, oratorios in churches too, of course.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39363/file/110744#t=3777.0,3828.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39363/file/110744/transcript/24149/annotation/95","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Neil Levin: In churches [inaudible]. Exactly. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: I love it.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: And, uh -- uh, government officials, diplomats -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: Right. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: -- came to hear Sulzer, the great -- in -- in -- in Vienna. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: Mm-hmm. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: And, um -- and -- and, uh, the same thing in Russia, I mean, it was, you know -- it's -- it's -- it's a complicated story. Uh, it depends when and what era and all that. And so when Chaliapin came here, he reportedly said, listen, there is a cantor of your people around the corner, I've heard it many times, wait until you hear him and his name is Kwartin. Uh, and, um --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: He was fantastic, Kwartin -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: -- just fantastic. His -- his feeling, the passion of his singing is unparalleled.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39363/file/110744#t=3828.0,3867.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39363/file/110744/transcript/24149/annotation/96","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Neil Levin: He had a -- a nephew Paul Kwartin who was the cantor here. Did you ever meet him?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: Never met him. No.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: In Brooklyn, a reform -- it was his nephew, Paul Kwartin. I knew him, he died young, uh -- uh, but he -- he's -- he's -- older than I or you, but -- but he -- uh -- uh, but he had a radio program every Friday on Wings of Song Jewish music.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: I remember Wings of Song. I remember that --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: Okay. That --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: -- but I didn't remember who it was. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: -- that's Paul Kwartin, that's Zavel Kwartin's nephew -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: Right. And we used to listen Friday afternoon -- it's interesting, because my grandmother wouldn't go to a shul with the hazzan; she liked to go to the Young Israel, but she loved, on Friday afternoon, to listen on the radio to hazzonishe music. I think it was WEVD.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39363/file/110744#t=3867.0,3910.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39363/file/110744/transcript/24149/annotation/97","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Neil Levin: Probably. Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: WEVD. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: W. Eugene V. Debs; right?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: Uh, yeah. WEVD.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That was -- yeah. Yeah. Yeah. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: With Eugene V. Debs --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: -- when the socialists liked Israel in those -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: When they -- exactly. Exactly.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: Right. Right. Right.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: Look, I had a great aunt who was a big -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: Right.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: Well, Workmen's Circle -- Workmen's Circle was never anti-Israel -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: Oh, I know.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: -- it was non-Israel -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: I know. I know. He -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: -- non-Zionist.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: -- I know. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: It wasn't anti-Israel.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: I know. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: They flew -- they sang God Bless America in Yiddish at every meeting.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39363/file/110744#t=3910.0,3933.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39363/file/110744/transcript/24149/annotation/98","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Alan Dershowitz: Yeah. Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: Um, but, um -- uh, and it was a ritual that for two generations worked as an alternative, but -- but Kwartin -- um, I could -- I wonder if I have a tape of it. There was -- and then -- also, therefore, related to -- to Kwartin was the opera singer, um – what is the name now, she was very famous, also died kind of young. All I remember is that she was one of the two leads in Marvin David Levy's, uh, opera when it premiered in 1966. Um, it will come to me as, uh, Mourning Becomes Electra. Um, but it's a name you would know. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: Yeah. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: Uh -- uh -- uh, a soprano opera, uh, singer.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: Yeah. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: Um -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: Did Beverly Sills have any Jewish, uh, training at all?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: No. She didn't have any interest. There's no Jan Peerce -- uh, there's no -- there's no so-called what do you want to call it, crossover? I don't know, I don't like that, but the –","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39363/file/110744#t=3933.0,3983.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39363/file/110744/transcript/24149/annotation/99","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Alan Dershowitz: Mm-hmm. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: You know, there's no great -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: -- [inaudible].\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: Well, when we first heard of Jonas Kaufmann, we -- we thought maybe -- maybe -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: Uh -- uh, I mean, I don't even care -- I -- I hate to -- you know, I -- I won't allow the -- any -- I'm not going to use the word \"racist\" because I don't acknowledge that there is such a word, but racial bigotry, uh, to -- in other words, uh, I'm not interested in who the composer is, I'm interested in the music.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: Of course. Of course. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: Um -- uh, after all, Max Bruchs Kol Nidrei, Max Bruchs was Jewish and all that. Obviously, he -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: Was -- uh, Alban Berg was not Jewish; was he?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: No. Absolutely not. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: No. I didn't think so.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: Yeah. No. No. No.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: Because in the program yesterday at Loo Loo [ph], it said that they couldn't play his music, because they regarded it as Jewish degenerative music.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39363/file/110744#t=3983.0,4025.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39363/file/110744/transcript/24149/annotation/100","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Neil Levin: Well, it was decadent, because -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: Right.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: -- it was, uh -- uh, atonal -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: Right. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: -- and because it was following in the footsteps of Schoenberg -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: Of course. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: -- and Schoenberg, by that time, became -- have you ever read Schoenberg's four-point program?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: No. No.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: Oh, you're going to love this. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: It was -- uh, well, it was never published and stuff, because Thomas Mann said, I'll get it published for you, but you've got to tone it down -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: Yeah. Yeah. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: -- and he wouldn't tone it down. And he -- he calls for -- he hated the, uh -- uh, the Zionist movement, because it was democratic.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39363/file/110744#t=4025.0,4051.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39363/file/110744/transcript/24149/annotation/101","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Alan Dershowitz: Mm-hmm. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: He said if it had been autocratic, uh, we'd -- we'd -- we'd have a [inaudible].\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: That's right. Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: But, um -- uh, yeah. No, but he wasn't -- and -- and -- and that's the irony, which -- which, uh, I -- I -- uh, I just published a big article about Survivor from Warsaw where I said, this is a disgrace, uh -- uh, of what happened to Schoenberg's lega- -- stuff that was taken back to Vienna -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: Yeah. I know, of course.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: -- because the -- they -- they had millions of dollars -- the government -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: So Schoenberg's, what, great nephew was the guy who was the lawyer -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: Grandson.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: Oh, grandson.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: Right.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: Uh, Randy.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: Right.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39363/file/110744#t=4051.0,4083.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39363/file/110744/transcript/24149/annotation/102","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Neil Levin: Um -- uh -- uh, interestingly enough, he's the grandson of Schoenberg and, um, le- -- not quite as famous, but a very important composer, um -- um -- um -- um -- oh, it starts with a Zim- -- it's not Ziminski, uh -- oh my God, it's embarrassing. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: And is there any -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: Uh -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: -- uh, is there -- is there any Mahler influence at all? Uh, did Mahler have any interest at all during his Jewish phase?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: I mean, you know, he -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: Now, I am one of those who rejects all this notion. Uh, that's what I call racialism, um -- uh, people trying to show that Gershwin, uh, my dear colleague Jack Gottlieb, uh, who died a few years ago, you know, and I -- but I kept saying, Jack, Gershwin -- he says, It Ain't Necessarily So, It was based upon the, uh –","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39363/file/110744#t=4083.0,4128.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39363/file/110744/transcript/24149/annotation/103","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Alan Dershowitz: The trope.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: -- haftorah trope. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: Right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No. I've heard all that. Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: Hugo Weisgall, who was my PhD advisor -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Of course, I know his -- yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: Okay. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: Yeah. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: His fa- -- I quote them all, he said, you know, there are only 12 notes -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: Right.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: -- and just to say Gershwin was never in a synagogue in his entire life. He did not have any observance or evidence of his becoming a Bar Mitzvah, nothing. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: Do you know his original name, of course?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: I -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: It was -- it was Gershowitz and Gershowitz, Dershowitz [ph], Hershowitz [ph] were always confused –","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39363/file/110744#t=4128.0,4157.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39363/file/110744/transcript/24149/annotation/104","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Neil Levin: Were they?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: -- because the GDH and the D -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: I remember when they changed it when they came in [inaudible] --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: So the guy -- one of his biographers actually came to see me and said, we think you're related to Gershwin and I said, I -- you know, I haven't seen any evidence of it.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: The notion that we have to take credit -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: -- that this is chauvinism -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: No. Of course, I know. I know. Of course, yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: -- it's stupid. We -- I mean, uh -- uh, we don't have to prove ourselves, first of all. Second of all -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: -- uh, classical music has not been a Jewish invention.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: In fact -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: -- it is -- it is -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: But Tin Pan Alley -- there was a lot of Jewish influence in Tin Pan Alley -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: Both ways.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: Right. Yeah. And Al Jolson and, you know -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: And -- and -- and -- and 2nd -- 2nd Avenue and -- and -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: -- and the way Al Jolson sings Swanee, not the way Swanee was written, uh -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: And, uh -- yeah. That Ella Fitzgerald recording of [SOUNDS LIKE Khob Bitser Leib], the words changing.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39363/file/110744#t=4157.0,4195.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39363/file/110744/transcript/24149/annotation/105","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Alan Dershowitz: Right. Yeah. Right. Right. Yeah. Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: But you know, no, I am not one of those who try to find -- so the answer with Mahler, I used to talk about this with Eric Werner who was one of my teachers and, uh, look, you find certain folk elements, but they're Cze- -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: [inaudible] \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: -- as much Czech -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: Oh, of course. Oh, of course.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: -- Moravian Czech -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: Of course.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: -- because, uh, hazzanim took all those things.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: Yeah. Of course. Of course.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: So to try and claim -- I mean, there was somebody in England, uh, who -- who actually wrote a book, it made me very angry -- I can't remember his name, it doesn't matter. I have it in my office somewhere. Published a book, um -- uh, you know, six, seven, eight years ago trying to show that there is a genetic propensity towards co- -- musical creativity and composition –","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39363/file/110744#t=4195.0,4234.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39363/file/110744/transcript/24149/annotation/106","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Alan Dershowitz: Okay. I don't buy that.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: -- in Jews and the worst part is that the guy is taking -- and he probably was Jewish -- well, I don't know if he was -- well, I think he is, yeah. It's an anglicized Jewish name. But it was published by [inaudible].\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: Well, Van den Haag, who is not Jewish, wrote the Jewish Mystique, which is full of racist, uh -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: This is totally racist.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: -- and I hate that.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: To say here that the -- but the worst part is he's saying, well, we can't say that the only [inaudible] -- like, uh, we can only consider those, his mother is a Jew, who says that anyone who is one-fourth -- and I'm thinking -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: Sounds familiar.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39363/file/110744#t=4234.0,4263.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39363/file/110744/transcript/24149/annotation/107","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Neil Levin: -- uh, tel- -- you were telling me about your -- your, uh -- uh, your -- your family and your brothers -- and so what about your children and, uh, other than the one, uh -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: My -- my children all love music. Uh, my older son, uh, when I take him to hear, uh, Helfgot, uh, he really, really enjoys it, but it's not part of their life. Um, you know, I think it skips generations. Um, my children don't love classical music or opera. Um, I did, my parents did -- my parents didn't. My parents didn't love opera or classical music -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: But they ca- -- but they ca- -- they -- they came from a generation that was -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: -- an immigrant generation, I assume?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: Yeah. No. My parents were born in America, but their -- their parents came over the late 19th, early 20th Century. Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: That's what I mean. Yeah. I mean, that's -- that's a different situation.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39363/file/110744#t=4263.0,4308.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39363/file/110744/transcript/24149/annotation/108","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Alan Dershowitz: And of course, you're imbued with it one way or another, uh, but, uh -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: Uh, people -- the fact is, I don't know what your views are, but you can -- everybody came to hate Arthur Hertzberg and I asked him once, because he -- I had him as a professor at Columbia -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: Mm-hmm. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: -- uh, when he published his book -- first place, you know, they hated him, because his connection to the -- to the Roosevelt Administration, which I happened to adore and all the [inaudible], but -- and I think all that is revisionist nonsense and I can prove it.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39363/file/110744#t=4308.0,4340.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39363/file/110744/transcript/24149/annotation/109","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"But, uh, also, because, uh, when he published the -- the book on, uh, American/Jewish history, he emphasized that every immi- -- every -- every Jewish immigration has [inaudible] came from the poorest and therefore, the least educated elements in Europe. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: The only time that changed was the – \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: After the '30s.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: Well, but not only that, but when Israel took a million Russians -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: -- totally different -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: Yeah. I mean, but that's later. But anyway -- but -- and so what is the shame in that? And then people got very upset about that. They [inaudible] --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: No. I -- I - I didn't -- I didn't known Hertzberg. He didn't like me, um, but I didn't know him.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: Uh, but I don't know why he wouldn't have. You actually -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: He didn't like me at all. Uh, he didn't like my book \"Chutzpah,\" uh, don't know whether it was -- I don't know that I was a young upstart, uh, but -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: I don't know, he was very pompous –","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39363/file/110744#t=4340.0,4386.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39363/file/110744/transcript/24149/annotation/110","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Alan Dershowitz: -- uh -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: -- um, and -- and -- and -- and -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: -- but he -- uh, he said some things that were reported back to me, which I didn't like, but I didn't know him.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: But you'd be on the same page when it comes to -- to, uh -- uh -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: Those are the people that you mostly have tension with --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: Yeah. If yo- -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: -- people who are on the same page as you.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: -- if you're on the same page when it -- when it comes -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: Right. Right.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: Look, I read your, uh, introduction to the book, of course, on, uh -- uh, the -- the attempt to defend, uh, which shouldn't even be necessary, Roosevelt vis-a-vis, uh, the -- the -- uh, the -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: Oh, the Rosen book. Yeah. Yeah.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39363/file/110744#t=4386.0,4414.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39363/file/110744/transcript/24149/annotation/111","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Neil Levin: Unfortunately, my own view is that the book isn't very good. It -- so then another one -- because the other one -- the other one is better. It -- it still doesn't do it. So I s- -- the point -- my point is we still need a book.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: Yeah. Yeah. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: We still need a book that has a chapter by somebody who knows military strategics and military tactics and to show what utter nonsense the whole thing is. We -- and -- and -- and -- and all that, uh, because my own -- you know -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: I'm -- I'm not -- uh, I don't object to Roosevelt's policy on the bombing of Auschwitz, my -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: I feel like that's the most absurd thing in the world.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: -- my big objection, of course, is his unwillingness to take a stronger stand in letting Jews in and I think that he deserves, uh, very substantial criticism to that.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39363/file/110744#t=4414.0,4454.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39363/file/110744/transcript/24149/annotation/112","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Neil Levin: But -- but -- but -- but -- but what did Congress play in that? That's the question.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: Presidents have a lot of power and he was, you know, more worried about his reelection than he was about doing the right thing. So -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: The reelection of 1940.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: Yeah. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: And that was a -- could've been a close election.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: So -- okay. So you're optimistic about -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: I'm optimistic. Uh, cantorial music is so inherently wonderful and passionate and, uh, that I think it will endure. I think we -- it needs help and we need to help it. We who love it, need to bring it to a generation of people who don't know it, but to know it is to love it. And our job is to bring it to their attention and to make it acceptable and to bring it out of only the Orthodox synagogue.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39363/file/110744#t=4454.0,4499.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39363/file/110744/transcript/24149/annotation/113","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Neil Levin: Absolutely, out of there, of course. Where -- uh, could -- do you -- do you have any ideas of -- uh, can you -- can you help me -- uh, do you have any just like sugges- -- where would be the type of university setting? Also, it has to be the right city. Maybe -- maybe it's as you said, New York is -- even when you were in Boston, it's -- it's New York.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: Mm-hmm. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: Uh, where would be a -- a natural setting for -- I mean, because you have, in Israel -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: Mm-hmm. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: -- the Jewish Music Research Centre -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: Yeah. Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: -- at Hebrew University.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: Look, let -- let me be very candid with you, American universities are looking for excuses to be nice to Jewish students, because they're so terrible to them when it comes to Israel and they're so tolerant of horrible anti-Israel, uh, actions by faculty members that they can't control.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39363/file/110744#t=4499.0,4542.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39363/file/110744/transcript/24149/annotation/114","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Neil Levin: Oh, I mean, UCLA, for example -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: So this is a perfect time to ask Columbia University, New York University, Harvard University, Yale, Princeton to establish a center of, uh, Jewish, uh, music. I think they would jump at the opportunity for reasons that are sometimes good, sometimes bad, but this is a perfect opportunity for a little affirmative action maybe for the Jewish community -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: Mm-hmm. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: -- from universities that have become, in many ways, unsafe environments for young Jewish Zionists. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: Well, I don't have to tell you what UCLA now what you -- what -- what happened.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: UCLA is one of the better -- UCLA is one of the better campuses. Berkeley, Columbia -- you know what one of the worst campuses is today?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39363/file/110744#t=4542.0,4585.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39363/file/110744/transcript/24149/annotation/115","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Neil Levin: What?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: Brandeis.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: Yes.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: Brandeis University, uh, today has become, uh, c- -- c- -- a center, uh, among some faculty and students of anti-Israel activity. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: That's terrible. It's when one -- one stops to think of it. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: Mm-hmm. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: Yeah. I mean, I suppose so the professors and the students -- I mean, because -- do you -- do you see non-Jews becoming interested in, uh -- uh, Jewish music?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39363/file/110744#t=4585.0,4612.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39363/file/110744/transcript/24149/annotation/116","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Alan Dershowitz: I see, uh, anybody who loves music becoming interested in Jewish music -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: -- just the way I, as a Jew, loves music, I'm very interested in Christian music -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: Right.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: -- and, uh, would love to know more about Muslim music. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: Mm-hmm. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: Music is music and if it's great music, we should all love it.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: So the answer to that is university in the sense of what it really means --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: Universal. Universal.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: -- is universal. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: Right. Right. Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: Yeah. Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: We -- we need a universal approach to Jewish music to put it in its appropriate place in the canon of music, to put it in its appropriate place in the history of the Jewish people –","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39363/file/110744#t=4612.0,4643.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39363/file/110744/transcript/24149/annotation/117","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Neil Levin: Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: -- the history of Europe, the history of America.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: Okay. That's what we're going to try to do. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlan Dershowitz: Good. Thank you.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNeil Levin: That's what we're going to try to do. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003e[End Alan Dershowitz]","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39363/file/110744#t=4643.0,4662.57067"}]}]}]}