{"@context":"http://iiif.io/api/presentation/3/context.json","id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/iiif/v97zk5683m/manifest","type":"Manifest","label":{"en":["Berlinski, Herman"]},"logo":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/organizations/logo_images/000/000/115/original/Boxed_Milken_Center_logo.png?1628711583","metadata":[{"label":{"en":["Preferred Citation"]},"value":{"en":["\u003cp\u003eBerlinski, Herman. 1998. Interview by Neil W. Levin and Barry Serota. Milken Archive Oral History Project. 20 October.\u003c/p\u003e"]}},{"label":{"en":["Publisher"]},"value":{"en":["Milken Family Foundation"]}},{"label":{"en":["Rights Statement"]},"value":{"en":["\u003cp\u003e© Milken Family Foundation. Unauthorized use is prohibited. For inquiries, please contact info@milkenarchive.org.\u003c/p\u003e"]}},{"label":{"en":["Agent"]},"value":{"en":["Berlinski, Herman (Composer)","Levin, Neil W. (Interviewer)","Serota, Barry (Interviewer)"]}},{"label":{"en":["Date"]},"value":{"en":["1998-10-20"]}},{"label":{"en":["Coverage"]},"value":{"en":["New York, NY (Place of Recording)"]}},{"label":{"en":["Language"]},"value":{"en":["English (Primary)"]}},{"label":{"en":["Description"]},"value":{"en":["\u003cp\u003eOral history interview with Herman Berlinski focused on his life in Europe as a person of Jewish descent, immigration to the U.S., rich musical career, recollections of other prominent musicians and composers, and compositional style. Encompasses a broad range of topics including Vichy France, the French Foreign Legion, Temple Emanu-El, the Jewish Music Forum, the Jewish Theological Seminary of America, the Washington Hebrew Congregation, Lazare Saminsky, Hugo Weisgall, and a myriad of his compositions (esp. Avodat Shabbat, Job, Etz hayyim, Symphonic Visions for Orchestra, From the World of My Father, and his Shofar Service).\u003c/p\u003e\r\n\u003cp\u003e\u003ca href=\"https://www.milkenarchive.org/artists/view/herman-berlinski\"\u003eView Artist Page from the Milken Archive\u003c/a\u003e\u003c/p\u003e"]}},{"label":{"en":["Format"]},"value":{"en":["Beta SP"]}},{"label":{"en":["Subject"]},"value":{"en":["Jews -- Music (Topical Term)","Oral Histories (genre/form)","Klotz, Helmut (Person Or Corporate Body)","Ecole normale de musique (Paris, France) (Person Or Corporate Body)","Cortot, Alfred (Person Or Corporate Body)","Theater, Yiddish (Topical Term)","World War, 1939-1945 -- France (Topical Term)","Jewish Music Forum (Topical Term)","Saminsky, Lazare, 1882-1959 (Person Or Corporate Body)","Weisgall, Hugo (Person Or Corporate Body)","Washington Hebrew Congregation (Washington, D.C.) (Person Or Corporate Body)","Washington National Cathedral (Washington, D.C.) (Person Or Corporate Body)"]}},{"label":{"en":["Keyword"]},"value":{"en":["92nd Street Y (New York, N.Y.), Abraham Joshua Heschel (1907-1972), Albert Weisser, Alfred Cortot, Arthur Wolfson, Avodat Shabbat (liturgical work), Burning bush (organ work), David Putterman, Dresden Chamber Choir, Ecole normale de musique (Paris, France), Eric Werner (1901-1988), Etz hayyim (The Tree of Life; oratorio), Frederick Jacobi (1891-1952), French Foreign Legion, From the World of My Father (orchestral work), Gustavus Poznanski, Helmut Klotz, Hochschule für Musik \"Carl Maria von Weber\" (Dresden), Hugo Weisgall, Jewish Music Forum, Jewish Theological Seminary of America, Job (oratorio), John F. Kennedy Center for the Performing Arts (U.S.), Joseph Yasser, Jüdisches Realgymnasium, Kazimierz Wiłkomirski, Kiddush hashem (choral orchestral work), Lazare Saminsky, Leonard Bernstein (1918-1990), Łódź (Poland), Max Wohlberg, Miriam Gideon (1906-1981), Moshe Rudinow, Nadia Boulanger, Paris Jewish Avant-Garde Theater (PIAT), Park Avenue Synagogue, Paul Dessau (1894-1979), polyphony, Richard Korn (1908-1981), Robert Baker (1916-2005), Shir Chadash Choir, Shofar Service (liturgical work), Sinfonia No. 1: Litanies for the Persecuted, Sinfonia No. 10 for cello and organ, Symphonic Visions for Orchestra, Temple Emanu-El (New York, N.Y.), Thomaskirche (Leipzig, Germany), Varian Fry, Vichy (France), Washington Hebrew Congregation (Washington, D.C.), Washington National Cathedral (Washington, D.C.), World War II, Yeshiva University, Yiddish Theater"]}}],"summary":{"en":["\u003cp\u003eOral history interview with Herman Berlinski focused on his life in Europe as a person of Jewish descent, immigration to the U.S., rich musical career, recollections of other prominent musicians and composers, and compositional style. Encompasses a broad range of topics including Vichy France, the French Foreign Legion, Temple Emanu-El, the Jewish Music Forum, the Jewish Theological Seminary of America, the Washington Hebrew Congregation, Lazare Saminsky, Hugo Weisgall, and a myriad of his compositions (esp. Avodat Shabbat, Job, Etz hayyim, Symphonic Visions for Orchestra, From the World of My Father, and his Shofar Service).\u003c/p\u003e\r\n\u003cp\u003e\u003ca href=\"https://www.milkenarchive.org/artists/view/herman-berlinski\"\u003eView Artist Page from the Milken Archive\u003c/a\u003e\u003c/p\u003e"]},"requiredStatement":{"label":{"en":["Attribution"]},"value":{"en":["\u003cp\u003e\u0026copy; Milken Family Foundation. Unauthorized use is prohibited. For inquiries, please contact info@milkenarchive.org.\u003c/p\u003e"]}},"provider":[{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/aboutus","type":"Agent","label":{"en":["Lowell Milken Center for Music of American Jewish Experience"]},"homepage":[{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/","type":"Text","label":{"en":["Lowell Milken Center for Music of American Jewish Experience"]},"format":"text/html"}],"logo":[{"id":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/organizations/logo_images/000/000/115/original/Boxed_Milken_Center_logo.png?1628711583","type":"Image"}]}],"thumbnail":[{"id":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/collection_resource_files/thumbnails/000/110/784/small/Herman-Berlinski-281.jpg?1621180621","type":"Image","format":"image/jpeg"}],"items":[{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784","type":"Canvas","label":{"en":["Media File 1 of 1 - Berlinski_Herman_L1893-94_Combined.mp4"]},"duration":7472.53333,"width":640,"height":360,"thumbnail":[{"id":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/collection_resource_files/thumbnails/000/110/784/small/Herman-Berlinski-281.jpg?1621180621","type":"Image","format":"image/jpeg"}],"items":[{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/content/1","type":"AnnotationPage","items":[{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/content/1/annotation/1","type":"Annotation","motivation":"painting","body":{"id":"https://aviary-p-milken.s3.wasabisys.com/collection_resource_files/resource_files/000/110/784/original/Berlinski_Herman_L1893-94_Combined.mp4?1616114255","type":"Video","format":"video/mp4","duration":7472.53333,"width":640,"height":360},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784","metadata":[]}]}],"annotations":[{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/66241","type":"AnnotationPage","label":{"en":["Berlinski Final (2) [Transcript]"]},"items":[{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/66241/annotation/1","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:\u003c/strong\u003e On November 9th, Job is going to be presented in Dresden, on the same day as they will turn over the first piece of earth to build a new synagogue.  In the morning, there is going to be ground-breaking, and in the evening, they’re going to present these things.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=15.0,33.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/66241/annotation/2","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"NEIL LEVIN:  Now, Job is being done in German.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  In German, yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Has it been done in English?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  It has been done in English at the Kennedy Center, and no more or less \u003cINAUDIBLE\u003e the Job.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Is there a recording of that?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  Unfortunately, not.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  So you don’t have a good recording of Job in English?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  No.  I have no recording in English.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Job requires a full chorus?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=33.0,51.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/66241/annotation/3","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"HERMAN BERLINSKI:  It requires a full chorus, it requires a full orchestra.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  How long is it?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  It is — you asked me a question I can’t answer, because…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  About?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  I would say an evening-filling work.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  It’s a full-length.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  Yeah, it’s a full-length’s work.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Well, we will, we need…","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=51.0,71.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/66241/annotation/4","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"HERMAN BERLINSKI:  I’ll, I’ll tell you, then.  This choir, in Dresden, can do it in English as well as in German.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  But you would have to arrange for them to — could you arrange for them to do it?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  The question is, with, that they, once they know the music, or…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Yeah.  I mean, afterwards.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=71.0,86.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/66241/annotation/5","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"HERMAN BERLINSKI:  …it is a difficult piece of music.  And once they know the music — I don’t know any German at this time who doesn’t speak English.  Everybody speaks English.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  The Dresden — which chorus is it?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  It’s the Dresden Chamber Choir.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  And the orchestra?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=86.0,101.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/66241/annotation/6","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"HERMAN BERLINSKI:  The orchestra is members of the Dresden Philharmonic.  And the, the soloists — I mean, the, the soloists we would have to change.  This, this I wouldn’t want to have with, with German soloists.  Because…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  No.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  In the choir, choir is one thing.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  No, no.  That’s not…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  But the soloist is…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  You see, we can bring the soloists.  That’s not a problem.  But we’d have to arrange for a deal with a chorus where we, if it’s not a professional chorus — this is probably, the singers are not paid themselves?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  No, no.  They are, they are…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  So, we’d make a contribution.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=101.0,130.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/66241/annotation/7","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"HERMAN BERLINSKI:  They are all students of the Hochschule für Musik of Dresden.\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Perfect.  So this is, we could make arrangements to record much of your music with them, if you can facilitate this.  We’ll talk about it after we’re finished today.  But if you can facilitate it in Dresden, and then, if we need, you know, we can, we’ll make a contribution to — you know, there are many different — we can pay the…","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=130.0,151.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/66241/annotation/8","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"HERMAN BERLINSKI:  Okay.  Now, I’m going to record now for radio, my Symphony No. 1 — The Litanies for the Persecuted.  That’s going to be recorded on November the 2nd.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Now, but you, Litanies for the Persecuted, you have a, you have a good tape of that.  I heard it, didn’t I?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  I have a very good tape in English, but this is going to be recorded in German.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Oh.  But Litanies, you, the tape you have in English is good.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Who sings that?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=151.0,175.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/66241/annotation/9","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"HERMAN BERLINSKI:  Well, Charlotte Dixon was the alto narrator, and, Anne Chodoff, which is absolutely superb.  We did that, we, I’m using the recording which I did at the Park Avenue Synagogue.  When we dedicated the Archives there.  That was…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  So, wasn’t that with Myra Merritt?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  Who?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Myra Merritt?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003e\t\tHERMAN BERLINSKI:  Myra Merritt did the Cantatas of Rachel.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Oh.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  We had two.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  But that recording from Park Avenue is a good — you’re happy with it?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=175.0,205.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/66241/annotation/10","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"HERMAN BERLINSKI:  It’s a good recording.  Whether, whether it, it is, you would accept it commercially — that’s another question.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eYou know, I, I have found out that don’t trust the composer on this one.  Don’t trust the com…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  I always trust the composer.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  Mmm?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  I always ask the composer.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=205.0,224.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/66241/annotation/11","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:\u003c/strong\u003e Ask the composer.  But I, I’m so delighted to hear my music that I sometimes forgive a lot of things which go by.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eI have now recorded a beautiful recording of my Symphony No. 10 for Cello and Organ.  And there’s a new recording outfit in, Washington… Elan [Elan Recordings].  There’s this Rodriguez and, his wife Natasha.  They are just tremendous.  And I was delighted with it.  I was delighted with it.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=224.0,252.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/66241/annotation/12","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"And the cellist [Lori Barnet] came back and said, “My foot,” she says, “you’ve got to change this, you’ve got to change this, you’ve got to change this.”  And she had a lot, a lot of things.  And I think she’s right.  I was more inclined to forgive than she was. So the bot, the, the composer is not the last instance on evaluating how good a recording is.  You ask the performer also.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  You, the more we can find among your own tapes — good recordings — the more we can include of your music here.  Because if we find a good tape of one piece, then we don’t have to record it, so we can spend our resources recording another piece.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  That’s the trick, you see, so, if, for example, we can find a good recording of Litanies for the Persecuted, and of The Beadle of Prague, and of the things that we want…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  …then we’ll have the money, we won’t have to spend money on that.  We can use that money to record…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  …something that you don’t have a recording.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  That’s the trick.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=252.0,312.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/66241/annotation/13","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"HERMAN BERLINSKI:  Right.  By, by the way, The Beadle of Prague doesn’t exist anymore.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  What do you mean?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  The composition of Beadle of Prague has been radically changed.  It’s called Etz Chayim.  Because the original version of The Beadle of Prague, remember, was in connection with the exhibition, The Precious Legacy, at the Smithsonian. And Arnost Lustig, at that time, wrote the libretto.  And the libretto was very poor.  I did not set one syllable of Arnost Lustig into music.  Let me tell — that text could not be composed.  So I used, choose different texts around this, and we just kept this as dialogue.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAnd then, he started making exorbitant financial demands.  He, he, he had some naïve idea that, that thousands of dollars are made with this.  And at that point, I said, “Look.  If, if, if you’ll make these kind of demands,” and the, the performing agent was the Dresden Choir, and they didn’t want to pay that.  And they said, “We are accustomed to pay for Oscar Borgamonti Collecting Agency, and that’s what the performance fee is.”","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=312.0,376.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/66241/annotation/14","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"So finally, by mutual disagreement, did we, did we eliminated the Lustig text and then substituted other texts.  Some of them, I wrote myself. Now, the same music is there, but it’s called Etz Chayim.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  But why can’t you call it The Beadle of Prague?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  Because that was part of the original things, where Lustig was involved.  I mean, that, that, that would, that would have been controversial.  Because under this title, the first version was there.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=376.0,404.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/66241/annotation/15","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"And, and then I ran into trouble with, with Mark Talisman about the, the story of this Mrs. Rosen.  I don’t know whether you know that, that incident; that woman in, in Theresienstadt who, who taught the kids how to plant trees.  And her daughter is still alive, you know, was then.  And part of the cantata that, was that particular element, of the woman who taught children how to do it, to plant trees, you know, which they never saw growing. And Talisman wanted to copyright this under his name.  It was very complicated. It’s, this, this, the music is there.  All it is, and it’s beautifully performed, it’s called Etz Chayim.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  But it’s the same music?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  The same music.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Oh, that’s fine.  So, the question is, is there a good, do you have a good recording of it?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=404.0,453.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/66241/annotation/16","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"HERMAN BERLINSKI:  I have a very fine recording of this one.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  So that we could include.  You see, if we don’t have to — because I think that those are two pieces that we must have, of yours, in this series of recordings.  We must have The Beadle of Prague or Etz Chayim, and we must have the piece For the Persecuted, and so forth.  So, if you have good recordings, then, we can save that money we have in the budget for Herman Berlinski…","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=453.0,477.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/66241/annotation/17","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"HERMAN BERLINSKI:  Well, I’m sure that you would want to have— but this is already recorded — The Symphony for Cello and Organ.  But once, once we’re finished with the corrections.  But that’s being released by CRI.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Doesn’t matter.  We can license it, probably, for a small fee.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Because CRI only reaches a small audience.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  Yeah?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Whereas this project will reach…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  …an enormous audience.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=477.0,495.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/66241/annotation/18","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"HERMAN BERLINSKI:  I mean, I, I consider the Symphonia for Cello and, and Organ one of the…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Does that have a Jewish title?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  Yes.  The first, the first one is Mi’ma’amakim— Out of the Depths Have I Cried Unto Thee; and the second one is actually a variation on Av harachamim by Avraham  Dunayevsky.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Well, you did that in Munich last year, or two years ago, didn’t you?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  I never did this in Germany.  I never did this in Germany.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Oh, that’s Sh’virat HaKelim?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  Hmm?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Sh’virat HaKelim?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  A Sh’virat HaKelim, that I have good recordings.  I have two good recordings.  And I have, I have them on compact disc.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  But the soloist is not such a great soloist, as I recall, on that.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  She was pretty good.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  No, no.  The baritone.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  No, the, Sh’virat HaKelim I did for soprano.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Oh, then, there’s something else I’m thinking of.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  No.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eBARRY SEROTA:  What about that symphonic work of yours that was…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  Which one?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eBARRY SEROTA:  It was a symphonic work of yours on CRI.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  Ah, yes.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eBARRY SEROTA:  That was recorded in the ‘50s.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  That’s an early work.  I mean, you…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eBARRY SEROTA:  You had Biblical titles for each of the movements.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=495.0,560.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/66241/annotation/19","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"HERMAN BERLINSKI:  Yeah, there are Biblical titles for each.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eBARRY SEROTA:  What work was that?  Which work was that?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  That is Symphonic Visions.  I wrote this in 1949 or so.  It’s very early.  I wrote this, actually, while I was a student of Olivier Messiaen.  And showed it to him, and he was very, he was very much taken with it.  That, that was a long time ago.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=560.0,583.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/66241/annotation/20","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"And at that time — the, later on, when I became organist at Temple Emmanuel, Richard Korn started recording all kind of music.  And he, at his own expenses, hired the Asahi Symphony Orchestra, in Tokyo.  And he took that score with him to Tokyo, where they copied it and made the part of it, and performed it there. And it’s not a bad performance.  But I can imagine a better performance of this one.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  There is a recording?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  The, the CRI.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eBARRY SEROTA:  I think you have it.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Oh, that’s the piece…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  That’s right.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Yes.  On LP.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=583.0,621.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/66241/annotation/21","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"HERMAN BERLINSKI:  And they have re, they have reissued it already on, on long-playing.  But it’s not on, not on compact disc.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  It’s a big orchestra?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  A big symphony orchestra, yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Back to the Cello and Orchestra.  In other words…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  Cello and Organ.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Cello and Organ.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  The Mi’ma’amakim is cello and organ.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=621.0,638.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/66241/annotation/22","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"HERMAN BERLINSKI:  The Mi’ma’amakim is the first movement.  \t\t\t\tAnd the Av Harahamim is the second movement.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  And that’s the Dunayevsky?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  The Dunayevsky melody, yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  And there’s no recording of that?\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  We just recorded it for CRI.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Oh, oh, oh, this one.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  But they’re going to release it in January.  I said that the…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Who is the cellist?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=638.0,655.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/66241/annotation/23","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"HERMAN BERLINSKI:  Lori Barnet.  She’s wonderful. I have a set of composition — I think, Barry, you know about it — called, they go all under the title of The World of My Father.  I used that title long before it was used by — who wrote the book of…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eBARRY SEROTA:  Irving Howe.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  Yeah.  Long before that.  So we have no copyright problem with this.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=655.0,678.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/66241/annotation/24","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"And that music goes back to my younger days, when I was music director, director of a Yiddish theater.  Now, this is, this, this Yiddish theater, The PIAT – Paris Jewish Avant Garde Theater – was one of the finest Jewish theaters ever, because these were the survivors of the Vilna Art Tropa, who, who came to Paris.  And we did Praise My Parents, by Sholem Aleichem — everything, you know; even some, some Russian-Jewish writers, at that time.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=678.0,705.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/66241/annotation/25","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"And eventually — when I left France, I had lost everything.  I left everything behind.  And then, by memory, I started reconstructing this music.  And it, it is, exists now in three suites.  One is for strings and chamber orchestra, and part of that music I have used in The Beadle of Prague.  Part of this.  One is a…","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=705.0,730.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/66241/annotation/26","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"NEIL LEVIN:  Excuse me.  I have to stop.  One was chamber music?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  It’s, it’s a chamber orchestra.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Okay.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  No soloists; just chamber orchestra.  The other one is for clarinet and chamber orchestra.  And it’s a piece to end all clarinet pieces, that is, it’s a very virtuoso piece, a tremendous piece.  And the third one is for cello and chamber orchestra, with a cello soloist.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=730.0,755.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/66241/annotation/27","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Now, I have a recording of these, unfortunately by a second-rate orchestra.  It’s not, not — but at least enough to hear what the music is, because this is all what I know from my klezmorim existence as, as a Jew, Yiddish music director; combined with Nadia Boulanger technique, and contrapuntal finesse and harmonic freedom, which no Jewish composer ever dared to use in, in this, within these materials.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  This would be a wonderful piece for us to record.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  Bratislava.  That would be…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Yes.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  This…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  With orchestra.  I could maybe even have Giora Feidman or David Krakauer or these are all people…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  That would…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  …who would want to play it.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  …that would be a piece not — I tell you this.  I, I, I don’t want to sound very, very commercial, but this piece has an enormous commercial potential because that is still the basic materials there.  It, it, it is a Fiddler on the Roof, multiplied by a thousand.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eBARRY SEROTA:  You know what it’s like?  It’s like, in terms of music for the Yiddish theater, it’s like what Achron wrote…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  Well, well…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eBARRY SEROTA:  …when Achron wrote for parts.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=755.0,819.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/66241/annotation/28","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:\u003c/strong\u003e …I give you, I give you an example, you know.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAt one point on the stage, you know, they all got drunk.  And nobody knew what to do — you understand?  And when I, when I had the freedom of, of just depicting that violent scene of the, of the klezmorim being drunk, you understand, of course I had to play wrong notes.  Of course, I had to, to have the whole (?)— the whole thing is very funny, you know — very grotesque. And in my opinion, if you ask me, as priority, that would be, I think, I want to be remembered of because it goes back to my father. It goes back to my origins. It goes back to the whole Polish-Russian origin of my existence.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=819.0,858.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/66241/annotation/29","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"And yet, I have, I have seen this with the eyes of somebody who has been long moved away from that.  And that, if you, if you are smart enough to disregard the poor performance of the orchestra — because it was done by the Mount Vernon Chamber Orchestra, who are all unpaid amateurs, and here and there, it’s just not perfection.  But…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  This is no problem.  If you will get me a tape and a score, I’ll, I can judge.  And then, we’ll see — that’s perfect.  We could then schedule a recording…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  …with an orchestra in Germany.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  Yeah.  The solo…","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=858.0,893.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/66241/annotation/30","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"HERMAN BERLINSKI:  The soloist, Steven Honigberg, who plays on a Stradivarius, who is one of the finest cellists, and, and what’s the name of the clarinetist on it?  I cannot, I cannot think of her name, now.  But, you could keep the soloists and engage them to do this over there, because they know the score.  But, that would be a marvelous thing. Now, for Steven Honigberg I have written also a concerto for cello and orchestra, which has never been performed yet —also on Jewish themes.\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  And is it going to be performed?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  Well, we, we are waiting for an opportunity.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eBARRY SEROTA:  What’s the title?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  Concerto for Cello and Orchestra.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=893.0,930.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/66241/annotation/31","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"NEIL LEVIN:  Let’s go back to talking about you a little bit, before…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  …from the very beginning.  I think you cross a lot of lines.  You’re a German Jew; you’re an Eastern European Jew, actually, whether or not people perceive that.  You, in some respects, are a French Jew; and, you’re an American Jew.  That is to say, an American-Jewish composer, German-Jewish composer, French, and so forth.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eIt all began where?  You were born, where were you born?  And where did your parents come from?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=930.0,960.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/66241/annotation/32","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"HERMAN BERLINSKI:  Well, let, let me answer this, you know, since, since I’m a Jew, whether, whether German, Jewish, or Russian.  There was a moment when we had to leave France, and the French had signed over all the people who had served the French army against Germany, by a secret treaty, to be handed over to the Germans.  So, there was a price on my head. And eventually, I managed to get a, a visa de sortie — that means a permission to leave France, which was strictly illegal and was bought, actually.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eBARRY SEROTA:  What year was this?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=960.0,1002.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/66241/annotation/33","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:\u003c/strong\u003e In 1940.  It was after the defeat of the France, and there was only the one Vichy France.  I bought it from one instance.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eBut what I didn’t know at that time, that I have to go through the Securité, which is the  Deuxième Bureau — it’s the French FBI.  They had to reexamine this. And I sat there.  And the man was standing in front, sitting there, and he had the following documents — first, he had my birth certificate, which is German; then, he had my Polish passport, signed by Mr. Brzezinski’s father — because I was a Polish citizen; then, I had documented that my father lived in America and had, had already full citizenship paper; then, he found, he had in front of himself a French, mil, a Carné de Militaire, which was my French military passport, because I served in the French army.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=1002.0,1063.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/66241/annotation/34","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"And then, he wasn’t quite sure whether, at the time I was born, Poland was not even a province of Russia.  Then, he didn’t know where the city of Leipzig, where I was born, was. So he went to a big map, and he said, somewhere with his finger on Siberia,“\u003cINAUDIBLE\u003e le trouver. Leipzig a été occupé par les Allemandes” — Leipzig has been occupied by the Germans.  “Donc, il faut que je vous extradit to, to, to the Allemandes” — I have to hand you over to the Germans.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAnd when I sat there, and my life was in this man’s stamp, I said, you know what?  I am nothing but a goddamn Jew.  The French passport, and the Polish passport, and the German birth certificate, and all the papers which, which was identify me, don’t mean absolutely nothing.  The only thing I’m sure is that I’m Jewish.  And it came so deep that no story, no theory, nothing could impress myself as deep as this fact — that I have been stranded between so many different obligations, loyalties, and so on.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=1063.0,1139.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/66241/annotation/35","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Eventually, he looked once more at my passport, and he said, “On top of it, you don’t tell me the truth.  You are not born in Germany.  You’re born in Lipsk. And he didn’t know that Lipsk is the Polish name for Leipzig.  And I did not help him, at that point.  And when he said, was convinced that Lipsk is a Polish city, and I was Polish, and not of the German origin, he took that piece of paper and put a stamp on it, and I was a free man, and I could go to America. But the, the essence of the Jewish intensity of the experience has never left me.  If I had a waivered as a young man — and, of course, we wanted to be Germans.  We wanted to be, assimilate ourselves into the superior culture of the Germans.  That was a, that was a, a, an illusion which German Jewry had, up to the point of arrogance.  And you know this is well-known, you understand?  And we have been taught better.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=1139.0,1202.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/66241/annotation/36","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"And even if I go back to Germany these days, I speak German like a German.  I have no accent, when I speak German.  And Germans put their hand on my shoulder and say, “You’re one of us.” So I said, “You wait a little bit.  I am an American.  I live in America.  My children and grandchildren are now American-born.  That is a thing of the past, this is finished; now and forever.” But this is in terms of, of loyalties.  I don’t think that I can possibly write a piece of music, no matter what I do and what I will try, which does not have the stamp of my Jewish existence.  It’s, it’s, un, even when I set out to write something symphonic, or chamber music, or a string quartet.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=1202.0,1252.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/66241/annotation/37","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"I didn’t mention my string quartet, because it was per, performed two years ago at the Corcoran Gallery.  And, and I have a beautiful recording of that one, also. Now, now, that string quartet does not have any Jewish themes.  And yet, my Gentile friends tell me that this is a full piece of Jewish music.  You can’t be very Jewish without writing, without using for classic materials.  That is the answer where you say, say…","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=1252.0,1286.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/66241/annotation/38","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"NEIL LEVIN:  You, how did you get to France?  And how did you get into the French army?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  Well, first of all, my father emigrated from, from Poland, from Lodz, where all the better musicians come from, you know…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Yeah.  Arthur Rubinstein.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  It is quite possible that my father was a textile worker, in, in Arthur Rubinstein’s father’s textile factory, because my father was in the textile factory at the age of ten.  They took him from out the, from the little cheder, and they put him in the factory.  They were very poor people, and he never saw the inside of a school. He never — he taught himself, later on, how to read and write.  But he never, ever had any schooling.  Neither did my mother, whom he married when she was about 16 or 17 years old.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=1286.0,1328.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/66241/annotation/39","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"And, the, the people who could afford tickets, went to America in 1905, in the wake of the pogroms.  And the poorer people made it as far as Germany.  They later just stuck there. And Leipzig was a eminent Eastern-European Jewish settlement.  We had, at the time when I left Leipzig, we had 19,000 Jews, of which 12,000 were Polish.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eBARRY SEROTA:  What year did you leave?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  1933.  In 1918, when the Polish Republic was constituted, my father had to choose between becoming stateless, which, at that time, means to accept a green nansen passport — a stateless passport — or to declare himself a Polish citizen.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=1328.0,1381.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/66241/annotation/40","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"HERMAN BERLINSKI: And my father, by instinct, said, to be a citizen of a country is better than to be not a citizen of nothing.  And he went to the Polish consul and had himself, his wife, and all his six children registered as Polish citizens. Now, at a certain point, we had to go ourselves to the Polish consulate and declare that we intend to keep that citizenship, even at the risk of being drafted in the Polish army. So when I was about 18 years old, I presented myself at the Polish consul.  We had — I told you, that was Mr. Brzezinski’s father, who was the consul — and I said, “We, we intend to remain Polish citizens.” That’s in Germany, surrounded by Germans; not speaking one word Polish.  That we somehow, by the incredible instinct which we Jews have, find that this is safer at this time to be a Polish citizen than to be nothing.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eBARRY SEROTA: You didn’t have the option to be a German citizen?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=1381.0,1445.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/66241/annotation/41","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:\u003c/strong\u003e German citizenship was obtainable under such difficult circumstances, under such — it had to be approved by all these states which constituted the, the Federal Republic, at that time.  And it always got stuck in Bavaria or in some state where they, where they — you had to have a lawyer in every state.  We never attempted it.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=1445.0,1467.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/66241/annotation/42","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"HERMAN BERLINSKI: My father was never, never trusted Germans.  He never had a, he never spoke properly German, you know.  And the tragedy is that he didn’t speak Yiddish well, either.  His Yiddish was already slightly bastardized with German inflections, you know.  Neither did he speak Polish well.  He, he, he spoke a language which, which served him, but not beyond that. But I declared myself a Polish citizen.  And when, in 1933, the situation became very, very critical for Jews, and I wanted to leave, I had my Polish passport within 24 hours.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eBARRY SEROTA: What sort of education did you have in Leipzig?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=1467.0,1516.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/66241/annotation/43","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:\u003c/strong\u003e I went, like we all did, first to, to the, to the public school, for one year or two.  And then, all six children of us went to the Carlebach Realgymnasium. Realgymnasium in Germany means that it is a high school which deals with the living language — French and English, and science, chemistry, and physic; the humanistic gymnasium that was Greek and Latin and philosophy, you understand?  And both led to the possibility of entering the university.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=1516.0,1552.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/66241/annotation/44","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"HERMAN BERLINSKI: And the Carlebach family, who ran three schools of this sort — one in Hamburg, one in Leipzig and one in Frankfurt — was a German-Jewish family, with all the earmarks of German-Jewish Orthodoxy.  That means arrogant and intolerant, and to the extreme. Any infraction of the, of the halakhic code, you know, like, like, wearing a handkerchief not on your wrist, but in your pocket, or pocketbook — all the most minor things would be considered an infraction, a crime against Judaism, you know.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eBARRY SEROTA: Was there some sort of Jewish content in the school? Was there Jewish content in the studies? In the course of studies?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=1552.0,1592.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/66241/annotation/45","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:\u003c/strong\u003e Oh, yes. I mean, first of all, we had to come every day, half an hour early for ma'ariv for..for…shacharit. In the morning, there was a minyan. We had to stay one hour behind for religion and we had to come twice a week in the afternoon also. We started chumash and everything else. But we did not go to school on Shabbat. The Germans go to school on Saturdays. We did not have to go, but we had to make up. And before you graduated, the examination was, was given by a state commissioner who came from the capital, which was Dresden, at that time.  It still is.  And he had a great time examining Jewish students, because he was a mathematician, and in that — he said he looks forward, every year, to examining Jewish students in mathematics.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=1592.0,1647.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/66241/annotation/46","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"From there, I went, at the age of 16, straight into the conservatory.  And music played a tremendous role in our house. I have something which would be very interesting.  When I came here to the United States, I had an, an old uncle in Patterson, New Jersey.  The whole Berlinski clan settled, in the, in the end of the 19th century, in Patterson, New Jersey, because Patterson, New Jersey was also a textile town.  And they came from Lodz textile to Patterson. And the old uncle said, “Herman, I have left for you a document which you, which I’ve waited for you all these years to give you personally.” And I said, “What is it, uncle?”","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=1647.0,1689.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/66241/annotation/47","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"And he said, “It’s a letter from your mother, which she has written to me in 1916.”  And he showed me an old — I still have that letter — and he showed me a letter.  And it says, “Dear Abe, Boris — that’s my father — [sounds like gedanken Gott mach da gotte parnossa].  I have six children.  They are very smart — they speak German.  And we just bought a piano.  And I know this — an old beat-up Bechstein piano.  And all six children had piano lessons. And he said, “I wanted you to have this letter of your mother”, who died very — she died when she was 39 years old — in, from cancer, you know.  She did not — thank God, not live, live to see the horror of the Holocaust.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=1689.0,1736.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/66241/annotation/48","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"And I took this letter in my hand and I said, “Uncle, Mother never knew how to read and write.  She could not have written you a letter in 1916 or in 1930, or any time.  She didn’t know how to read and write.” And he said, “Who wrote that letter?” I said, “I know who wrote that letter.  The maid.” Because nobody in the whole world writes Gothic but somebody, but somebody who’s born in Germany and brought, brought up in a German public school. And he was very disappointed.  He had thought Mother had written this letter.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=1736.0,1770.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/66241/annotation/49","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"HERMAN BERLINSKI: But the priority was this — she has six children; she has a husband that has parnassa, and they bought a piano.  And of course, we got a cut-rate piano teacher.  For six kids, she got a special price. And she, and this is how I started, started my musical career.  And my oldest brother played very well.  And then I got to the conservatory.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN: And you mentioned that Wilkomirsky…","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=1770.0,1797.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/66241/annotation/50","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"HERMAN BERLINSKI:  Yeah.  I know Wilkomirsky very well.  In, in, indeed, the widow, Harry Wilkomirsky, went to school with me, in the same class.  That’s one of his sons, yeah. And the older brother — he died a few years ago.  And the widow of my brother married Harry Wilkomirsky.  My brother passed away also a long time ago.  And she married Harry Wilkomirsky.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  We did a session like this with Abraham Wilkomirsky.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  In San Francisco.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  A few years ago.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=1797.0,1828.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/66241/annotation/51","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"HERMAN BERLINSKI:  Yeah.  I have tried in vain, because somebody in Leipzig wants to write the history of Jews in Leipzig, a musical history.  We have tried in vain to get some documentation about Wilkomirsky, or a recording.  I have not been successful.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Well, now, I can do it.  I know where it all is.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  I, I have not been successful.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  No, no.  I know exactly where it is.  It’s…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  Oh, yeah?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  He died, didn’t he?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eBARRY SEROTA:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Wilkomirsky died afterwards.  But all the archives are in San Francisco.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  They’re…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  I mean, the, the oldest daughter is still alive.  The, the — Genya, Genya.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  She lives in France, half the time.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  In San Francisco, yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  But she also lives in Paris a lot.  Genya?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  Genya, yeah.  I don’t know whether she lives in Paris.  She…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  I think so.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  Yeah?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  I was told she doesn’t care much about things.  But the thing is, who wants to do the, who wants to write that…","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=1828.0,1870.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/66241/annotation/52","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"HERMAN BERLINSKI:  He’s a Dr. [sounds like Schenkat], who collects everything he can get about Jewish musicians of Leipzig.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  In Leipzig?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  Yeah, yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  You know, the Leipzig’s — I’m sure, the current so-called Leipzig Synagogalchor?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=1870.0,1882.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/66241/annotation/53","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"HERMAN BERLINSKI:  I have had my bitterest argument about this.  I don’t know whether this is a subject for…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Yes, it is.  Because I also have had…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  I’ll tell you.  I, I know them… I know them very well.  Mr. Klotz.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Hmmm-hmmm.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  And…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Helmut Klotz.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=1882.0,1895.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/66241/annotation/54","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"HERMAN BERLINSKI:  Helmut Klotz. I have told them, “As long as you lived under a communistic rule, you know very well that the communists are using this choir as a tool to make propaganda, to say, ‘Look.  We’re Jews.’” It was some kind of, of a Jewish folkloristic society, and not a single Jew was there.  They think they sing Yiddish.  They think they sing Yiddish.  And they sound accordingly.  It’s not a bad choir. I said, “You can be forgiven, and maybe even rewarded, for having kept alive at least a spark of Jewishness within this hostile culture.  But now, yet you are free, that you can express yourself, this choir has only a reason to exist if it is presided over by a Jew.  What you have done now is Hitler’s ultimate goal.  Jewish culture without Jews.”\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  That’s exactly my sentiment.  It reminds me of, it’s a museum.  It’s the museum to the extinct Jewish people.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=1895.0,1957.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/66241/annotation/55","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"HERMAN BERLINSKI:  And, and, and the, the Leipzig people are running around with a certain amount of incredible stupid pride.  Pride themselves — “We’ve got this.  He kept this alive.” I said, “Look.  I volunteer.  Constitute an honorary committee.  You can get Sam Adler, you could get Herman Berlinski, you get Herbert Fromm” — when he was still alive.  “And, and let this committee advise you as to what to do.  Get some Israelis in it.  Then, you could function.  Until such time when there is a choir — I mean, when a Jewish member can join that choir” — because the, the congregation is growing, from, from the influx of Russian Jews.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  It’s not so much even the, that, as it, as it’s a vehicle, it’s nothing but a vehicle for Klotz to sing.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  Of course.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=1957.0,2003.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/66241/annotation/56","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"NEIL LEVIN:  I wouldn’t care so much — that the choir is not Jewish doesn’t bother me.  Because, first of all, there aren’t really these — it’s a very, chorally, it’s not, it’s pretty good, actually, I think the sounds.  But of course, they’re singing, not Yiddish, as you say.  They’re singing that ridiculous Galitzianer — no, but it’s true.  It’s a Galitzianer, you can’t understand one word of the Yiddish. And but the worst part is, when they have, if they do Dunayevsky, or Lewandovski, who is the soloist?  Helmut Klotz.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  And we offered them an opportunity to come to the United States last year, for concerts, on the condition that they will, that the soloist will be an important American hazzan.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  Yeah?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  And you know what Klotz wrote back, a letter?  Very insulting.  He wrote back, he said, “No.  We know that American, that cantors, that cantors are not musicians.” So, I don’t, it’s interesting, that you feel the same way.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  Well…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  There’s something very eerie about the whole thing.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=2003.0,2056.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/66241/annotation/57","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"HERMAN BERLINSKI:  When they, they came eventually, you know.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  They came?  And he sang with them?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  And the cultural attaché desperately tried to get me to support them, and recommend them. And I said, “I cannot do this in good conscience.  If, if you will form an honorary committee — you don’t have to pay anybody.  We don’t want your money.  If there is such a thing as a, a, a synagogue choir, and at least the leadership and the choice of the program director is Jewish, then,” I said, “a linkage is created and eventually, sooner or later, Jewish singers will take over.”","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=2056.0,2092.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/66241/annotation/58","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Because this is the last privilege we have — to take care of our own culture.  That’s the survival, it is.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  I had some dealings with the embassy.  Do you know Gudrun?  I forget her name?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  Gudrun, the…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Gudrun…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  Licherhogast?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  She’s, she’s no more there, though.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  She’s gone?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  She’s gone, now.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  That’s a pity.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Yeah.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=2092.0,2110.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/66241/annotation/59","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"HERMAN BERLINSKI:  She’s gone.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  So tell me, now…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  But the, the new one is a very, very nice person.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  She went back to Germany?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  She went back to Bonn, yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Yeah.  Anyhow, you were in the French army for how long?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=2110.0,2126.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/66241/annotation/60","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"HERMAN BERLINSKI:  Well, let me, let me connect this with my French passport, of many \u003cINAUDIBLE\u003e. And the first thing is, I left Germany in the direction of the East.  I went to Poland. First of all, we had a tremendous amount of relatives; uncles and aunts and nephews and nieces — at least 50, 60 people in Lodz. And since I had a Polish passport, I went to Lodz, because I wanted to see that.  I had never seen it, by the way.  My parents did send all the other children to Lodz from time to time, when it was possible.  But I hadn’t been there. And I played there a concert at the Sala Conservatory in Breslau, and I played a concert at the, at the Polish State Radio.  And became acquainted with my cousins. And it was very strange — and this is interesting — I could not speak any language with them but Yiddish.  They, they did not speak German, and I didn’t speak Polish, so Yiddish became the, the link there.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  You played a concert on the piano?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  Yeah.  As, as a pianist.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Because you weren’t an organist until you came to America.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=2126.0,2185.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/66241/annotation/61","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"HERMAN BERLINSKI:  No, no.  The organ, the organ part comes in \u003cINAUDIBLE\u003e also been here.  Only in, in New York.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  So you were primarily a pianist?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  A pianist.  I was trained as a pianist.  And I studied composition and theory. In Poland, I could only stay three months, because after three months, you lose your status of Poland living abroad, and you become Pole.  And, and at the age of 23, it meant the army.  And, at that time, I wasn’t interested in to serve the Polish army. Poland was rife with anti-Semitism.  And Jews were mistreated economically, physically, and in any other ways, very — the, the Poles did not have to learn any lessons from Hitler, at that point. And I left Poland, and through a very complicated way — through the Baltic, North Sea, via Holland, by ship, went to Holland, Belgium, and then, landed in Paris.  And in Paris, my, my present wife, who was then my, my friend, she managed to come from Leipzig directly.  We met first in Danzig, and from Danzig, we went to Paris. We all became students of the famous École Normale de Musique.  This, this is an important thing.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=2185.0,2260.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/66241/annotation/62","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"The, the Paris Conservatory is very seldom accessible to students who come from abroad, because the maximum age you’ll, you, you can have before becoming, you become a student, is 18 years.  If you’re past 18 years, you cannot be a student at the Conservatoire Nationale. We were all older than 18 years old.  Consequently — and the French did this because the Conservatoire, you don’t have to pay anything, and they didn’t want to have their institution available to foreign students who don’t pay.  So, they created an extra school, which is basically a branch of the Conservatoire, and it was called the École Normale, which in, in French, is not normal, but superior school.  There, you had to pay.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAnd the, the two teachers who were there — the outstanding personalities was Alfred Cortot, for piano, and Nadia Boulanger, for composition. And we were four people, who came there.  My wife and I, Ilya Wojikoff, and Ilya — no — Elyahom Wojikoff, and Ilya Holadenko.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eBARRY SEROTA:  Wojikoff is the father of the cellist.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  That’s Michael’s father.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eBARRY SEROTA:  Yeah, right.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  Michael’s father.  He studied with me in Leipzig.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Did you study piano with Cortot at all?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=2260.0,2336.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/66241/annotation/63","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"HERMAN BERLINSKI:  In, in, in Paris.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Yeah?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  You knew Cortot? \u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  Of course I knew Cortot.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  And let me ask you, just this — I don’t want to dwell on this, but maybe you could clear something up.  There has been a — I don’t know — a current among, in the pianophiles and so forth, of assumption, that something, something about Cortot…","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=2336.0,2357.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/66241/annotation/64","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"HERMAN BERLINSKI:  Well, I can tell you — wait a second.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  You know what I’m going to say.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003e\tHERMAN BERLINSKI:  Cortot, Cortot, who, whom I heard playing in recital in the modern day city of Warsaw, on the day when the Germans bombed Warsaw, became an arch-collaborator with the Nazis.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  So it’s true.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=2357.0,2373.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/66241/annotation/65","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:\u003c/strong\u003e This is confirmed.  He was condemned to five years of national indignity. And when I was in Marseilles as a French soldier, stranded and under the danger of my life, I wrote a letter to Cortot — and Cortot was then the Minister of Cultural Affairs at the government of Vichy — and I wrote a letter of Cortot and I said, “I am your student.  I worked with you.  I don’t want anything from you but to get out of here.  A letter of recommendation would open up this.” And Cortot wrote me — and that letter I still have — that he remembered me very well, and the studies I did with him.  Unfortunately, that’s not his department.  And he can’t do a damn thing about it.  That’s a verdict of death.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=2373.0,2417.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/66241/annotation/66","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"The story goes — now that one, when Cortot came back, after five years, after he had been condemned, and he wanted to play a concerto with the Orchestra Paris, the new Orchestra of Paris…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  When?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  That must have been in the, in the, in the…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eBARRY SEROTA:  Fifties?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=2417.0,2438.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/66241/annotation/67","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"HERMAN BERLINSKI:  …early ‘50s.  They stood all up when he came out, and left, and did not play with him.  He died in exile, alone, and, and in….But Cortot was an arch-collaborator.  That is a, a hundred percent.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  All of the collections that have come out, and the books and everything about Cortot as one of the great, this is…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  It’s a terrible, a terrible thing.  When, when it, and the funny thing is, when I was a student in Leipzig, Cortot never did come to Leipzig.  The Leipzig was too small for him.  He came to Berlin, you understand, to play. But when the, under the Nazis, he played in every German village.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  What about [sounds like Kasatsu]?  There were also some questions about [sounds like Kasatsu].","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=2438.0,2480.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/66241/annotation/68","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"HERMAN BERLINSKI:  About [sounds like Kasatsu], I do not know.  I, I really do not know.  But I know that, that Thibaud never collaborated.  And, and of course, the great cellist, Pablo Casals, was an ardent anti-fascist, and it was out of the question. I spoke to Madame Casals, as a, the, the present — I can’t think of her name right now.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Istomin.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  Yeah, Istomin.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Yeah.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=2480.0,2504.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/66241/annotation/69","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:\u003c/strong\u003e Istomin.  I said, “Give me an explanation.  Your husband must know something about Cortot.” — because the famous trio was Cortot, Casals and Thibaud — “And did your husband ever speak to you about his feelings about Cortot?” She said he did, and he was, he could not talk much about it.  But he said, human vanity.  The, the Germans flattered him to such a point that he, that he gave in.  And…","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=2504.0,2535.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/66241/annotation/70","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"NEIL LEVIN:  I mean, look — it extends — Maurice Chevalier, I mean, you know…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  There is, that really was one of few, of many.  One of many.  But that was a tragedy.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  So how long were you in the — did you actually wear a uniform?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=2535.0,2553.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/66241/annotation/71","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"HERMAN BERLINSKI:  In, in Paris, in Paris, two things happened.  First of all, I conducted a German choir, I conducted a Hungarian choir, I played Yiddish theater.  And they had no legal right to exist.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  What kind of Yiddish theater did they have there?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=2553.0,2568.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/66241/annotation/72","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"HERMAN BERLINSKI:  That Yiddish theater was one of the, I don’t know whether the names mean anything to you — David Licht.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eBARRY SEROTA:  He was in America, later.  David Licht.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  Yeah.  He was in, in, in South America.  He’s, he is dead now.  And Jacob Rothbaum were the, were the directors.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAnd we played almost every play by Sholem Aleichem, and, and some of the stories which were made into plays, you know; and the classics, for which I had to write music, you know. We played Peretz.  And Peretz left a tremendous impression on me.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  When you say Yiddish theater, I mean, this is a, not, this is legitimate plays?  But you had to write the music for it.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  Well, incidental music.  And, and, even a dramatic Jewish work…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  But it wasn’t musical theater, like operettas…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  No, no, no, no Second Avenue.  Nothing like this.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Or Goldfaden.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  No, no, no.  Not…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  They didn’t do Goldfaden.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  No, no.  Nothing of that sort.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  No Goldfaden.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=2568.0,2624.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/66241/annotation/73","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"HERMAN BERLINSKI:  However, however, it’s in the nature of Jewish drama that, whether it’s Thomashefsky or anybody else, in the nature of our, our own dramatic experience, that they cannot conceive even of the — even if it were a Shakespeare, they would manage somehow to throw in a few songs, in between, you know.  It’s, it just, they just couldn’t conceive any other way. But it, it was not only a, an artistic experience — it was a human experience, because these were all Polish, Russian, Ukrainians — people who, who were stranded in France. And there were tailors, and there were all kind of professions which, which in France were well-paid.  Pocket, many made leather pockets, lady pockets, you know — pocketbooks.  And, at night, they went to rehearse.  At night, they played.  And some of them were absolutely fantastic actors.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eBARRY SEROTA:  How big an ensemble — an instrumental ensemble — did you have?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=2624.0,2682.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/66241/annotation/74","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"HERMAN BERLINSKI:  Oh, it was sometimes, I had one ensemble.  My orchestra consisted of myself and a piano.  And at one point, I had a string quartet that was already there.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  That was the biggest.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  That was the biggest one.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Where is all the music from there?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  Hmmm?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Where is all the music?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  I said this music exists in the three suites.  \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Oh, incorporated in the three suites.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  That is, this is the three suites.  Every melody I remember there.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Well, then, I think we should definitely…","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=2682.0,2706.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/66241/annotation/75","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"HERMAN BERLINSKI:  You see, and I’m, I’m, I’m fond of it like I’m fond of my mother and my father.  It’s, it’s, it’s a very deep thing, you understand.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Well, don’t you think that we should definitely…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  This is why I said, knowing — you know we went with The Beadle of Prague in Bratislava, and we had a tremendous success in there.  And in Prague.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  In Bratislava?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  In Bratislava and Prague, we did it.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Where did you do it in Bratislava?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  At the, at the, radio, radio station.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  You know what?  We recorded, for an entire…","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=2706.0,2731.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/66241/annotation/76","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"HERMAN BERLINSKI:  You told me that. Yeah.  They wanted, they wanted to make a recording of it, and I was afraid of Lustig.  And, but we did the original version there, with the text.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  But the new version is much nicer.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  When did you leave France?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=2731.0,2747.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/66241/annotation/77","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:\u003c/strong\u003e In 1934 or ‘5, finally, we decided to become French citizens.  And with the application of French citizenship, there is a declaration you sign that you will, if you become a French citizen, you will serve the French country in time of war. In other words, in 1937, I had already a military engagement with the French government.  I never got my citizenship, but on September 1st, or actually, in August, August 29, 194.., 1939, I had just, very plain and simple, an order to report to Kazin in such-and-such a place, for induction to military services.  There was declaration of war.  And, at that time, I went into the French army.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=2747.0,2792.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/66241/annotation/78","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"And I went there voluntarily.  Because this was one thing which, even today, I feel I have survived, so I can say it.  Fortunately, I was one of the very few Jews who, in this tragedy, who was permitted to have a machine gun in my hand, and shoot at them. But I tell you this — every German I meet today, I said, and, and that’s why I was on the other side.  The satisfaction that I could defend myself, the satisfaction that I could hit them back with what, with what they hit us, was immense.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=2792.0,2824.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/66241/annotation/79","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:\u003c/strong\u003e And it, it, it actually evaporated my own physical fear of death.  I said, if I die fighting the Germans, it is a million times better.  And, at that time, I did not know about the Holocaust.  We knew about the Holocaust much later. But at that time, it was a question.  And the tremendous tragedy that communism, at that time, was a tremendous force.  You had the Foreign Populaire.  And the communists came out and said, “This is an imperialist war.  We don’t have no part of it.” — because Stalin had a pact with Hitler. And in the Piat, there were a lot of communists there; a lot of people.  It split the whole French wide open.  Those who said this is a war against not Germany, but against fascism — this is a continuation of the war which started in Spain, where Hitler and Mussolini were, were devastating Spain, and this war must be fought — and the communists, who were standing on the right side, and were waiting for something.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=2824.0,2883.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/66241/annotation/80","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:\u003c/strong\u003e So I went to — however, not being a French citizen, it became automatically the Foreign Legion.  Now, the, the, the Germans among us were sent to Africa.  But I was a Polish citizen, and I was on the front-line duty. And we went into the, we were, I was trained, a heavy machine gunner.  And we went into action at the Belgian border when the Germans broke through.  And the only battle I have ever known was retreating.  In other words, we, we had to retreat.  The Germans pushed us back. From my regiment of 2,500, a little bit less than 250 people survived.  Now, if I said “survived,” it means, it doesn’t mean — the others were not dead.  They were lost.  And many people surrendered.  Many people disappeared, and many people died.  We never know what happened to them.  But, I know that when we were reassembled after the Armistice was signed and they reassembled the regiment, there were 250 left of us.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=2883.0,2948.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/66241/annotation/81","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:\u003c/strong\u003e I got the highest French decoration, the Medaille Militaire, and, and Combat Volontaire, and I carry them with great, great, great pride; great deal of pride that that I have accomplished in my life. Whether my music will be immortal, I don’t know.  But for my children and grandchildren, that I have been able to fight against Hitler means a great deal in my life.  Tremendously. And at that time, the demobilization came, and it meant that the French Vichy government would hand over those who volunteered to fight for France into the hands of the Germans, where they didn’t live for 24 hours. And for me, my Polish citizenship, citizenship, couldn’t help me for the very simple reason, I have on my left arm four vaccination marks.  And of all the countries of the world, the Germans vaccinate differently than anybody else.  They stand there like clack-clack, like a regiment engraved in my arm. I can’t get it out, They would have to cut off my arm to get rid of them. So, I could not fool the Germans into thinking I am Polish.  They could see that I have been born in Germany.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=2948.0,3016.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/66241/annotation/82","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"HERMAN BERLINSKI:  But we finally managed to get out with the help of family we had in the United States, and with the help of an institution which you may not never heard of — Varian Fry.  The name means anything to you?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  What’s the name?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  Varian Fry.  F-R-Y. At that time, Roosevelt was up for reelection.  And the American Union, Sidney Herman, had promised him support.  And Roosevelt was, strangely enough, completely indifferent to the fate of the Jewish intelligentsia that was stranded in Europe.  Roosevelt didn’t bother with that. But Sidney Herman told him, if you want support of the Jewish population of this country, then do something for the Jewish intellectuals who are stranded in Europe and in danger of being, of falling into the hands of the Germans. Roosevelt said no.  But Eleanor Roosevelt found a man, a, a Quaker from Philadelphia, whose name was Varian Fry, F-R-Y.  And sent him as a secret agent to Marseilles.  And there, in the catacombs of Marseilles, by, protected by no diplomatic immunity, exactly like one conducted later, in Budapest, advised us what to do, how to go, and what means could be done to get out of France.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=3016.0,3110.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/66241/annotation/83","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:\u003c/strong\u003e In my case, it was easy, because my brother and my sister had been already here.  Also, that we have, in spite of the fact that my father comes from very poor things, eventually, wound up to be a very rich man.  We had all the money to bribe French — the French patriots could be had for any paper you needed, if the price was right.  So that saved our life. And we, my wife and I — by the way, my wife and I married in Paris — and her mother, we came together to the United States.  And very strangely, even though, even though we had to bribe our ways, we had to have legitimate papers.  The French wanted to cover their back, if the Germans ever would control, why did this, and why did this one get out? They had to invent that I was not Polish, but a Russian.  Russia, if you’ll remember, was neutral.  Russia was not yet at war.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=3110.0,3178.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/66241/annotation/84","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"HERMAN BERLINSKI: So we traveled on a document which designated me as a Russian nation, a national which the French did that. And we came there, through Spain, to the United States in July, 1941.  Two weeks later, Russia was at war.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Now, let’s move — when you came, you became an organist here in the United — which is a very important…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  Well, this…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  …thing to talk about, because that’s something you had not expected.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=3178.0,3213.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/66241/annotation/85","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"HERMAN BERLINSKI:  Well, yes and no.  The, it was my organ anteceded….  You could not grow up in Leipzig without going, at least once a month, to the Motet at that Church of St. Thomas in Leipzig.  And there, the great organist, Gunter Harmano, was the successor, in the long line of Bach.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Now, I mean, just so we know, the Church of St. Thomas, St. Thomas…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  It’s a…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  …had a very famous cantor, at one time.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  Yeah, yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  What was his name?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  Yeah.  It was Johann Sebastian Bach.  Bach, Bach was not the organist.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  No.  The cantor.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  He was their cantor.  And cantor, in German, means “music director,” understand? But, the then-cantor Streiber, heard me playing Bach at a concert.  And he came to me and he said, “Berlinski, you’re wasting your talent at the piano.  You should play the organ.  I teach you.”  And I ask him, “Well, how could I learn how to play the organ?” This is a church institute.  And Leipzig was, the organ was taught, not at the conservatory, but at the church institute. And he said, “Why don’t you convert?” I said, “There may be reasons to convert, but organ playing is not one of those.” Well, I never got a lesson from him.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=3213.0,3281.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/66241/annotation/86","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"HERMAN BERLINSKI: It’s in, it’s funny, because in three weeks, I’m going to play at that organ in Leipzig my Jewish work, the Prelude of Rosh Hashanah and Prelude of Shavuot, on that organ, which I could not study at that time.  And I come back as a Jew. Anyhow, I came, we came to America.  My first contact was Cantor Rudinow of Temple Emanu-El.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  That’s Moshe Rudinow?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  Moshe Rudinow.  And the Jewish Music…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  How did you meet him?  How did you get to know him?  I mean, how…","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=3281.0,3308.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/66241/annotation/87","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"HERMAN BERLINSKI:  I had been, I had not been told that there are a number, that there is such a thing as Jewish Music Forum.  And that, coming from the PIAT, coming already with Jewish antecedent, as a composer of Jewish music, I had saved two compositions.  One is a sonata for flute and piano, on Jewish themes; and one are some pencil sketches from the music for the PIAT, you understand? And I was really anxious to show them to somebody.  I was anxious to make a contact with a composer.  And I met, within a few, short times, Lazar Weiner.  I met Moshe Rudinow, and Joseph Freudenthaler who actually came from Leipzig, from the Transcontinental, you understand?  And they introduced me to the Jewish Music Forum and Binder. Binder hired me for his music school, so that I could have, feed my family.  In the meantime, my wife was pregnant, and we expected the arrival of a child.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eBARRY SEROTA:  That was at the 92nd Street Y?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  At the 92nd street Y.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=3308.0,3370.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/66241/annotation/88","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"BARRY SEROTA:  What type of music program did they have there?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  At that time, it was a regular classical music school. I taught them Bach, Beethoven…nothing Jewish. It was a regular music school. And it is at that Jewish Music Forum that they…that my first composition, the full sonata was presented the same day when Leonard Bernstein presented his Jeremiah symphony on the piano. We both were the artists at that time.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=3370.0,3397.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/66241/annotation/89","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"HERMAN BERLINSKI:  By the way, this sonata has been recorded by the first flutist at the Israeli Philharmonic, just a few months ago.  It’s not yet released on, on compact disc.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  This is something you composed in Europe?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  Yeah.  That is, that, that was the luggage I still had from Paris.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  And this was at a concert of the Jewish Music Forum?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  At a concert of the Jewish Music Forum.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Forum, yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  And I…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Bernstein was on the same program?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  Hmmm?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=3397.0,3417.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/66241/annotation/90","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"NEIL LEVIN:  Bernstein’s Jeremiah was also on the Forum program?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  Bern, Bernstein’s Jeremiah was performed at the New York Philharmonic…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Oh.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  …but he gave a preview on the piano for the Jewish Music Forum.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  That’s what I’m asking.  He did a preview on the piano at the Forum?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  Yeah, that’s right.  That, that’s right.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Did you know that?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eBARRY SEROTA:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  This is how I got to meet Bernstein, also.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eBARRY SEROTA:  With the singer.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=3417.0,3434.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/66241/annotation/91","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"HERMAN BERLINSKI:  You know, it was thanks to Bernstein that Avodat Shabbat came about, with, with Barkin.  You know that Bernstein…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  How did it happen?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  Bern, Bernstein…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Avodat Shabbat is your Friday night service.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  Yeah. Well, in any case, after one of these con, concerts, concerts, Yasser came over to me.  And he said, “Look.  I’m going to be soon 65, or, and to be retired.  You’re a wonderful pianist, you’re a very interesting composer.  There’s nobody who could take my job.  Would you be interested in the organ?” And I had lived miserably from year to year, teaching piano.  I had at one point 30 students, at one point 15 students.  But the, the \u003cINAUDIBLE\u003e situation. And the, the organ came to me like, like, like something which from way back already was in the back of my mind.  It, it didn’t come from nowhere.  It came from somewhere.  And this must have been somewhere in 1951.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=3434.0,3494.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/66241/annotation/92","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:\u003c/strong\u003e And Yasser taught me the organ.  We rented a studio from Claire Kochee on 72nd Street.  And then, I got the permission to practice by a Herbert Siegel of B’nai Jeshurun.  And I may have had, had, maybe, five or eight organ lessons. And while I was at Yasser’s place, it was a, in Yasser’s house — not during organ lessons — he had a telephone conversation, in Russian.  But, I heard my name — “Berlinski, Berlinski, Berlinski.”  And he turned to me and he said, “You know what?  Saminsky wants to see you.” And Saminsky at that time had just celebrated his 70th birthday.  And I was, and Lazar Weiner and Robert Siegel and I were co-presidents of the Jewish Music Forum, at that time.  And I had to give him his birthday greetings, and that flattered him very much.  And Saminsky invited me to come. And he said, “I need an or, I need an assistant organist.” And then told me about a Mr. March, who was his organist, and he said he was very dissatisfied with him and would I be his assistant organist?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=3494.0,3567.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/66241/annotation/93","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:\u003c/strong\u003e And I said, “Dr. Saminsky, I don’t know how to play the organ.  I just be, I’m just beginning.” He said, “You’ll learn.  This is America.  You’ll learn.”\tAnd oh, this is funny.  I had to make an audition.  I couldn’t play a single piece of the organ from beginning to end; certainly not Bach.  And the ba’alei batim from Temple Emanu-El were supposed to listen to me. And he led me in front of the huge four-manual, with a Cassavant organ of Temple Emanu-El and he says, “You’ve got 15 minutes to familiarize yourself.” I’d never played an organ of that size.  We, we started on a two-manual.  And I knew one thing, that if I could move my feet on that pedalboard, they’ll think I can play the organ.  And I laid out of the pedalboard, a basso ostinato to be repeated.  Practice is good. Now, when it came to improvisation, I don’t hold second to anybody in the world.  I can improvise anything, at any time and any place.  And I had this basso ostinato, and started improvising.  I used all the pistons of Robert Baker — I just pushed the button.  Whatever came out, came out, you know — I didn’t do. And yet, Saminsky said, “Berlinski, you’re a magnificent organist.” And the ba’alei batim said, “You got the job.” This is how I got into Temple Emanu-El.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=3567.0,3656.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/66241/annotation/94","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"And then, Baker came over to me, who was the senior organist, and he said, “Berlinski, I think you don’t know from beans.  You haven’t gotten the foggiest idea what an organ really is.  But I said that a man of your guts, I’ll teach you.” And from that day, Baker and I, he was my senior organist; an incredible, clever organist with subtleties and ways of handling the organ for a Jewish service second to none — absolutely second to none. He taught me everything there is to play a Jewish service; the sensibility — and he’s not a Jew, you know this — the sensibility, the efficiency.  You, you say you can make a, a cantor sound flat, you can make him sound, a cantor sound sharp.  You have to know what kind of a voice you’re accompanying, with what stops that cantor is being flattered, and with what stops you could absolute bury him.  There were a million and one details.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=3656.0,3713.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/66241/annotation/95","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"HERMAN BERLINSKI:  I entered the service of Temple Emanu-El in 1954.  I played my first recital in 1955.  First public recital on the organ for which I had composed every piece of music.  And those I didn’t compose, I arranged. And at the same time, Yasser told me they’re having a doctoral program at the Jewish Theological Seminary, and you’re a candidate for it.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eBARRY SEROTA:  Let me ask you a question, before we get to the Seminary.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eBARRY SEROTA:  What kind of person was Saminsky?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=3713.0,3746.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/66241/annotation/96","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"HERMAN BERLINSKI:  You know, I owe everything in my music career to Saminsky.  To say that he was an exceedingly difficult person — he was a man enormously convinced that, besides Schoenberg and Shostakovich, there is only Saminsky — and Stravinsky — Saminsky.  He ranked himself into a category of importance, which neither his success, or the absence of his success, nor anything else would bear out.  And, based upon this discrepancy between what he was in public life and between what he imagined he ought to be, there was a bitterness and a hostility which made him the deadly enemy of any, anybody. I came in as his underling.  I came in as his meshot.  And I, I cleaned, virtually, the place he was, you know.  I had to bring his library in order. His library was in unbelievably bad shape.  From what I have seen, you know, it’s just as bad now as it was before, but I brought order in it.  If there’s anything German in me, it’s how to run a library efficiently; how to label pieces; how to paste them together; how to repair books.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eBARRY SEROTA:  You’re talking about the repertoire that they used in the temple?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=3746.0,3828.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/66241/annotation/97","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:\u003c/strong\u003e Yes.  And — at that point. So, the second thing I, I really think is, Saminsky had a feeling that I would be his successor.  He did not say so in any writing, nor did he proclaim it, but he treated me that way.  He died too early to, to make a pronouncement.  And when he died, eventually, the question was wide open — who is going to be his successor?  It is not Saminsky who had recommended me.  And Saminsky left nobody behind. His standing in the musical world was very critical.  He was an exceedingly difficult person.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=3828.0,3869.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/66241/annotation/98","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"HERMAN BERLINSKI:  And he had a very — his first wife died.  I had never known his first wife.  And his second wife was an English, or an Anglo-Saxon, woman, with whom he lived in a very miserable marriage. But he personally couldn’t do enough for me.  He loved me, he loved my work. He loved my son.  And whatever I have — not only this — I went through Temple Emanu-El from one crisis to another.  I was rambunctious. I was difficult.  I sat at that musical meeting, making suggestions which they absolutely laughed to death.  And Saminsky defended me with every ounce of his strength — with every ounce. And the, the, the rabbis there, the rabbonim there were a unit.  Between Saminsky and Berlinski, they had to deal with two Russian Jews, and they just were tolerated.  They considered me a Russian Jew, you know, because of the…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Saminsky’s position was what?  Music director?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  Yeah, music director.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Music director.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=3869.0,3929.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/66241/annotation/99","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"HERMAN BERLINSKI:  And he had, he was fortunate that Saul Dribben was then the president of the congregation.  He had a protecting hand over him, and nobody could touch him.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  And who was the, the cantor was Moshe Rudinow, to begin with?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  Moshe, Moshe Rudinow.  And then, he had to retire, and then became Cantor Wolfson.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Arthur Wolfson.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  Arthur Wolfson.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  How was Wolfson to work with?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=3929.0,3946.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/66241/annotation/100","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:\u003c/strong\u003e Wolfson was — if ever a man had dignity, majesty, beauty of voice, Wolfson had it.  He was, he was the hazzan, hazzan par excellence for a Reform service. Because he had none of the histrionics, he had none of the improvisatory skills.  Wolfson would sing straight.  If he comes, if you tell him to come in on the fourth beat, he’s there on the fourth beat, you understand?  And however, he managed to, to convey in his artistic and in his presentation, a deep strain of, of, of the best of Jewish music of Western Ashkenazic tradition.  Not Eastern — Western. It so fell — and I, I, I mourn this still, today — that Wolfson and I became competitors for Saminsky’s succession.  I had claimed Saminsky was the composer, the choir conductor.  And I had claimed I’m a composer and a choir conductor.  On top of it, I’m, I’m even an organist.  And at that time, I was no slouch as an organist.  And, and I could hold my own with anybody.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=3946.0,4017.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/66241/annotation/101","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:\u003c/strong\u003e And Wolfson said, “I am here cantor since ten years before you came.  And the seniority, by seniority, and in tradition, all synagogues have been run by cantors, and this is, this is one which better go back to that tradition.” He had a perfectly legitimate point.  I had a perfectly legitimate point.  Excepting that these points were running that way.  And that created a great deal of animosity which, which I regret.  I have never lost my respect for the man as an artist.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=4017.0,4045.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/66241/annotation/102","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"HERMAN BERLINSKI:  Tragically, that when Saminsky died, and Wolfson took over after a long interval of nothing, that which Saminsky presented, in terms of enterprise, of originality — a three-choir festival, interfaith movement — sheer creativity, innovation, that all was, that, that all we buried with Saminsky.  That all ended.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Saminsky didn’t have any children, did he?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eBARRY SEROTA:  No.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  No, he had no children.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Do you know anything about Saminsky’s — I mean, he wrote some big symphonies, and some operas, and so forth.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  Yes.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  He didn’t get them performed, did he?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=4045.0,4082.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/66241/annotation/103","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"HERMAN BERLINSKI:  I’ll, I’ll tell you — I have to be very, very honest.  He had one symphony in which Jesus plays a great deal of things, and he wanted to have a symbiosis between Judaism and Christianity in opera.  And I know only from the Ariel, the ballet opera which he had, which we used excerpts for, for the High Holidays, which are very…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eBARRY SEROTA:  It was done in Chicago, once.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Which?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eBARRY SEROTA:  Ariel.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Oh, Ariel, yeah.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=4082.0,4106.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/66241/annotation/104","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"HERMAN BERLINSKI:  Yeah.  And, and I think that — what was the first name of Stein?  He had a music director, Stein, in Chicago, with him, who invited him.  I cannot think of his…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eBARRY SEROTA:  It wasn’t Leon Stein, was it?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  Leon Stein.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Was it Leon Stein?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  It must have been.  I, I think he was instrumental, I think.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eBARRY SEROTA:  There was a festival, a Saminsky festival around 1951.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  What?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eBARRY SEROTA:  At the University of Chicago, they put on The Vision of Ariel.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  Yeah.  I think I remember this, but I was not yet at Temple Emanu-El at that time. I remember the thing that he had — and Leon Stein also was subsequently invited to, to come to, to Temple Emanu-El.\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Um…","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=4106.0,4139.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/66241/annotation/105","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"HERMAN BERLINSKI:  But Saminsky — as a composer, I would say that at one concert which was given at one occasion at Hunter College with a large orchestra, I found his symphonic work sterile, disappointing, and not rewarding. His synagogue music has found a steady home in Temple Emanu-El.  And I have a sinking feeling that beyond that, it has not, it has not found a niche.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  No.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  But who am I to say?  My music isn’t, is completely, totally…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  But there are some symphonies, some big symphonies, or a couple of operas, I think, that are only in manuscript.  That were never performed.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  That’s possible, but I, I would not know. But, whatever I have heard symphonically, left me very cold.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Then you went to, or before, before Washington, I want to just ask you, did you also deal with Yasser?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=4139.0,4190.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/66241/annotation/106","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"HERMAN BERLINSKI:  Well, Yasser became my first teacher.  And I took classes with Yasser, and what they, what they did at that time was a reconstruction of Biblical music.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Of what?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  A reconstruction of Biblical music.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  And that was, that was an exercise in futility, which lasted for two semesters.  And every time I came home, and my wife told me, “Can you sing, can you sing anything?  Can you try to, would you reconstruct this?”  And they’re speaking about reconstruction, they haven’t been able to reconstruct anything.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Well, that’s, that’s musicology.  But anyway, where was this class?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  At the Jewish Theological Seminary.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Oh, that was at, that was your first class at the Seminary.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  That was my, that was my doctorate program.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  And so you entered a, but you eventually…","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=4190.0,4234.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/66241/annotation/107","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"HERMAN BERLINSKI:  I went, I went in with the understanding that I would get into a doctoral program.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Who was your advisor there?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  Hugo Weisgall.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Oh, Weisgall was?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Even then?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  Oh, yeah.  He was.  He was a…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  And you were the first — I mean, technically, the second, because of alphabetical reasons, right?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  Well, that’s, that’s, that’s a long story.  Hor, Horcourt — what was his name?  Or Honems.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Honems.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  Honems was, was about three minutes later, so I’m still the first.  And it’s not my mistake that my name starts with a B.  But that was the way.  We both graduated at the same day.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=4234.0,4267.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/66241/annotation/108","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"HERMAN BERLINSKI:  And the, the studies were a source of profound experience in me, both in the most positive way, but also, a negative way. The negative aspect of it was that I was not admitted to any study of Judaic contents.  The, the rabbis at the Theological Seminary felt that you can only study Judaica at the Theological Seminary if you get into rabbinical school.  So, when it came to studying Judaica, I had to go to Dropsie College, Philadelphia, and take some basic courses there and credits. And, in addition to this — you may remember this vaguely, or maybe don’t, maybe you were too young — there was a major scandal with Yeshiva College.  Where doctor degrees had been handed out a little bit…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  You mean Yeshiva University?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=4267.0,4317.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/66241/annotation/109","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:\u003c/strong\u003e Yeah — Yeshiva University — where they were handed a little on the fast side.  And everybody became worried.  And instead of 90 credits which were necessary, they required me of 120 credits, you know.  They, they, everything became a little bit more difficult. So I had to take hazzanut with Cantor Max Wohlberg, which was a delight.  I have never seen a man who knew as much, and were as humble as Max Wohlberg was.  That was, that was a great thing.  And, and what I learned with him went deep into my bloodstream as a composer.  It functions, it functions invariably.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=4317.0,4351.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/66241/annotation/110","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:\u003c/strong\u003e I took cantellation with Shlomo Rossovsky.  And I was, I was virtually once more bar mitzvahed with him, at the examination.  And I was a good cantellator.  And it came me, to the, when I eventually came to Washington, where nobody ever chanted, I, coming fresh, fresh out of the Seminary, where Rossovsky introduced cantellation. There, they’re having 250 bar mitzvahs a year, and everybody who could sing two notes, cantellates.  But, I had a profound sense of the value of cantellation over there.  Indeed, he gave me one of his books with a personal dedication. Shlomo Rossovsky wanted me also his — he wanted me his, his successor.  And I said, I’m not cut out.  I’m a composer.  I am not a musicologist at heart.  I studied musicology because it has to be, but deeply down, I’m a composer.  But I have a good Zvi yavetz (?). You know the story about Einstein and Rossovsky?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=4351.0,4409.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/66241/annotation/111","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"NEIL LEVIN:  No.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  Somebody stopped him on the street, and he said, “Are you Professor Einstein?” And he said, “I am not, but he also was a great man.”\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eBARRY SEROTA:  Let me ask you a question for a moment, to backtrack.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eBARRY SEROTA:  When you were at Temple Emanu-El, when you were the organist and Saminsky was the music director, what sort of repertoire did they perform?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  Well…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eBARRY SEROTA:  What percentage of the music was Saminsky’s?  And if it wasn’t Saminsky’s, whose music was being performed?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=4409.0,4434.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/66241/annotation/112","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:\u003c/strong\u003e I would say 60 to 70 percent was Saminsky.  And that wasn’t, had gotten quite accustomed to it. Saminsky’s music is accessible.  It is a little bit on the dry side.  But then, I want, I want to tell you something which is not easy — you’ve got to be a musician to understand it. Saminsky had an uncanny sense of the place.  The way Temple Emanu-El is built, you could sing a Schoenberg, and by the time it comes down, it’s angelic, because the, the room filters music to such a point that counterpoint doesn’t mean a thing. Now, if you were to do Avodat Shabbat in the big Temple Emanu-El, I think 80% of that contrapuntal work would be lost.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=4434.0,4482.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/66241/annotation/113","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:\u003c/strong\u003e Saminsky wrote a harmonic style which is as transparent as crystal is, as glass.  And he wrote, I would even say, a non-harmonic style, where the harmony, harmonies are so diffused, so indeterminate, that you never really have a feeling this thing is being harmonized. But if you had the choir he had built — and he was uncanny and skillful in selecting not only a good-sounding choir, but in most time, also a good-looking choir — I mean, they were very young.  And he, he told me once, “Berlinski always knows a good soprano when he sees one.” And however, I have never heard any Jewish religious music coming through as beautifully as it does in Temple Emanu-El.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=4482.0,4533.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/66241/annotation/114","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"HERMAN BERLINSKI:  Now, but I later came to Washington Hebrew Congregation, as a disciple of Saminsky. And I told my rabbi, “We’ve got to do Saminsky.  We’ve got to do Saminsky first of all.”  And Saminsky was dead already, at that time, but I did it. And to my own surprise did I find out, not half as good in the different acoustic of the Washington Hebrew Congregation.  Nothing was of that sort.  And I mention this to you — that the acoustic of the place, that’s what Saminsky wrote for.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Did they do Binder music there?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=4533.0,4565.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/66241/annotation/115","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"HERMAN BERLINSKI:  Saminsky and Binder were deadly enemies.  If you mentioned the word “Binder” in Saminsky’s presence, he wouldn’t speak to you for two years.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  So, they didn’t do Binder’s music.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  They never did one line of Binder.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  In the classic days, we’re talking about the…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  Okay.  He had, he had first of all…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Who?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=4565.0,4580.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/66241/annotation/116","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"HERMAN BERLINSKI: Spicker and Sparger.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  They still did that?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  Yeah.  Oh, yes.  And I think they’re still doing it now.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Really?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  With the kiddushe by, by, patterned after \u003cINAUDIBLE\u003e.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Not now?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  I don’t know.  I, I haven’t been there lately.  You understand?  But Spiegel and Sparkle.  But they did that damn thing in Berlin.  They traveled with this.  The famous Adon Olom by Warren, which is a magnificent piece, but that does…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  By who?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  Warren — W-A-R-R-E-N.  Adon Olom, which is a Sephardic tune, you know.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eBARRY SEROTA:  Did they do pieces by Federlein, the organist?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=4580.0,4612.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/66241/annotation/117","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"HERMAN BERLINSKI:  Federlein, Gottfried Federlein.  And, of course, the, the, the various adaptation by Massenet, and Gounod, and Mozart, all…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  They were still doing that in the ‘50s?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  In my time.  This is how new this was.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Oh.  I thought that was only in the 19th century.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  No, no, no, no.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Still doing it in the ‘50s?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=4612.0,4631.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/66241/annotation/118","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"HERMAN BERLINSKI:  No, no.  I had these manuscripts, you know, written only in parts.  You, you know, when I came, there were no scores for the singers.  Each one had just a vocal part.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eBARRY SEROTA:  What about the services that they had commissioned?  The Achron service, the Jacobi service?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  During, I served in — I served from 1954 to 1963 — we never did a single piece by Achron.  I know the Achron service very well.  He never did it.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  But it must have been done once there?  When it was commissioned.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  When they commissioned it.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  And that was the end of it.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  That was before my time.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  And that was the end of it.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  Never.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  And the same with Jacobi?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=4631.0,4662.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/66241/annotation/119","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:\u003c/strong\u003e Frederick Jacobi, whom I know very — by the way, Frederick Jacobi, I have a dear souvenir.  I was sent, and I cannot tell you who sent me the Frederick Jacobi.  I visited him in his villa in 19.., when I came, in Riverdale.  And I showed him what I had.  And he sat with me for hours and discussed everything; advised me, and helped me; recommended me. He was a soulful person, and I think he was a wonderful composer.  And I regret that his music has disappeared. I did — we had, when — as soon as I came to Washington, we did a whole evening of, of Jacobi’s second service, which David Putterman commissioned. And I had Irene Jacobi coming down and playing some chamber music of her husband.  He’s a composer of great value to me; very great value, but not of the thing.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=4662.0,4716.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/66241/annotation/120","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"HERMAN BERLINSKI:  However, in the last years, what Saminsky did was to invite people to come.  And that’s when he, he invited Leo Stein.  He invited Isidore Freed.  Isidore Freed was done a great deal.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Did they do, they did Freed’s music?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  Oh, yeah.  Isidore Fried.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  In the ‘50s.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  The kiddushe and so on.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  That was pretty new, then.  In the ‘50s.  That was new music.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  Oh, yes.  Oh yes, yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Fromm?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  Fromm he did, he invited Fromm to come down, and they did a whole evening.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  And they did…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  Yeah, yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  But that was all new, as of the ‘50s?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  From the, what about…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  Sam Adler he had come from Texas, and, and he did a whole evening of Sam Adler.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  But that’s later.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  But Steuben…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  But the standard repertoire, if I want to know what was the standard repertoire…","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=4716.0,4751.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/66241/annotation/121","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"HERMAN BERLINSKI:  The standard repertoire was \u003cINAUDIBLE\u003e Saminsky, Federlein, Spicker and Sparger.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  What about somebody called Gerhardt M. Cohen?  You don’t know that name at all?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  That name doesn’t mean anything.  But there was…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  No.  He was at Temple Emanu-El in 1860, 1850.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  Yeah.  But there, there were some responses which, which I am very fond of, even today, by Poznanski.  Does that name mean anything to you?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eBARRY SEROTA:  Poznanski?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=4751.0,4774.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/66241/annotation/122","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"HERMAN BERLINSKI:  Yeah.  Gustavus Poznanski.  And, and the funny thing is that this Poznanski is that reputed Poznanski which the congregation in Charleston hired to come from Posner, from Poland, to the United States to help them to fight against the organ, organ party.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  That was a court case.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=4774.0,4799.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/66241/annotation/123","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:\u003c/strong\u003e Yeah? That went to court.  And when Poznanski came and played, sang a few, few months with the organ, he said, he changed his mind — he likes it fine.  And he deserted them.  And eventually, he left and he came to New York.  And he, he left a few responses. There was another composer, by the name of Davis, who left a few responses, but…","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=4799.0,4822.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/66241/annotation/124","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"BARRY SEROTA:  I have some manuscripts that were written for Moshe Rudinow by Paul Dessau around 1939, 1940.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  Well, Paul Dessau is a very critical case.  Paul Dessau, there is, in the publication of Putterman’s synagogue music — you know that volume?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eBARRY SEROTA:  Hmmm-mmm.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  There are some responses by Paul Dessau, and they are damn good.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  But there’s not much.  This is very little…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  It’s very little…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eBARRY SEROTA:  But there were a few additional works.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  Very effective.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eBARRY SEROTA:  For example, Rudinow recorded a Vayechulu…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  Yeah?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eBARRY SEROTA:  …by Paul Dessau around 1940 which was an excerpt from a longer work…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  Yeah, yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eBARRY SEROTA:  …which was for choir and so forth.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=4822.0,4853.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/66241/annotation/125","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"HERMAN BERLINSKI:  Yeah, but Paul Dessau, you know, went back to communistic Germany…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eBARRY SEROTA:  Yeah, right.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  …and eventually….  And…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  But what, in, in Rudinow’s, these things, I mean, he didn’t sing in that at all?  He didn’t do them?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  I beg your pardon?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Like the Dessau.  He didn’t…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  No.  That, that, that…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  No.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  I, Dessau I met only …and I wish I had this, when Schoenberg wrote his Kol Nidre, he had asked Dessau to present it to the Jewish Music Forum.  And he wrote a letter in which Schoenberg professes about his bloodiest ignorance about the history of the Kol Nidre.  And, and defended himself, or apologized, for having written such an immoral prayer as a Kol Nidre, for reasons which he felt was important.  But he, he did not understand it. And it was presented him with, I think Rudinow sang it, and he was accompanied by a piano, or something like this.  But…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eBARRY SEROTA:  Did you know Rudinow well?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  Hmmm?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eBARRY SEROTA:  Did you know Rudinoff well?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=4853.0,4920.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/66241/annotation/126","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"HERMAN BERLINSKI:  Oh, yes.  He was one of the first people.  I came to Rudinow and I couldn’t speak very well English, so he spoke Yiddish to me.  And he spoke very good Yiddish. And I asked Rudinow, “Moshe,” I said, “will I ever make a living?  I have a wife and a child.” And he said the very classical word, “Az ihr hot var zey darfn”— if you have what they need. \u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  At the Seminary, what was your, you had to write a piece, a major work, for your dissertation.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=4920.0,4952.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/66241/annotation/127","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"HERMAN BERLINSKI:  The, the original plan was that I write a master dissertation, because when this scandal with Yeshiva College came about, and they piled on additional credits and they said, “You’d better make a master before you get a doctorate.”  And the master dissertation was Rabbinical Inhibitions in the Development of Jewish Music.  I could have hoisted a, a red flag over a swastika at the Jewish Theological Seminary — it wouldn’t have been any worse.  Because…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  One moment.  You did — you actually wrote that?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  I wrote that, yes.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Do you have a copy of it?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  Certainly, I have it.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Well, we would like to have it.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  But it’s strictly trayf.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Why?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  Because when, when Heschel, who was my advisor, saw that, he almost fainted.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Well, why?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=4952.0,4994.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/66241/annotation/128","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:\u003c/strong\u003e Because, because my thesis at that time was that, given the talent of the Jewish people, and given the biblical antecedent of the importance of Jewish music, it is a very big question — why does our Dark Age last for so long?  And why did we not have a body of music which would be world-famous?  Anything.  We’ve got the talent; we’ve got the inclination; we’ve got the temperament.  What happens? And then, I said there were halakhic inhibitions, the various laws which were passed by the rabbis, which limited, more and more and more, and froze in the tradition.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=4994.0,5032.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/66241/annotation/129","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"NEIL LEVIN:  In other words — all right.  So, look — Heschel disagreed with your…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  Oh, yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  …with your thesis.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  And…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  That is to say, with your position, with your explanation.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  Yes.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  That I can understand.  But still, you, the supporting factual…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  Well, I couldn’t, I couldn’t, I couldn’t get a master’s on this.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  So, they didn’t approve the master’s.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  No.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  But you still have the paper?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  I still have it, yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  So but, so I would like to see it.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  I would like to see it.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=5032.0,5051.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/66241/annotation/130","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:\u003c/strong\u003e And well, it has many things.  Don’t, don’t forget that I had, in addition to that, was Hugo Weisgall.  And as difficult a person as Weisgall was, to me, he was a friend.  There isn’t a thing he didn’t do to help me. He criticized me.  He sometimes embarrassed me.  Because ob, obviously, I was a, I’m foreign-born, I’m, I don’t speak English like he does.  He was only three months old when he came here, but still.  And, and Weisgall is, is a past master of the English language, so, there’s a big difference. So Weisgall came over to me and said, “Herman, why should you battle with Heschel?  There will be no end to this whole thing.  I agree with you.  I understand your point of view.  But you will not get a doctorate in this institution.  I believe in you as a composer.” And, that he did; that he did, wholeheartedly. And we collected a number of compositions at that time, and I got my master’s, based on this.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=5051.0,5107.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/66241/annotation/131","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"NEIL LEVIN:  In, in composition?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  In, in, in composition.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Instead of…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  Instead of the dissertation.  In lieu of the dissertation.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  But you did get a doctorate from the Seminary.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  Well, wait a minute.  I got the master’s first, yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  You got the master’s first, and with Weisgall as your advisor.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  Yeah, Weisgall.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  And on the basis of a composition.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  Yeah.  When, when…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  What was that composition?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=5107.0,5125.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/66241/annotation/132","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"HERMAN BERLINSKI:  Now, that Kiddush Hashem.  Then, the, when the, the project for the doctorate came, it was decided that I’m going to continue to, to function as a composer.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Can I ask you, what, in just in one sentence, if you had to, what was Heschel’s position?  I mean, what did, how did he explain the…","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=5125.0,5148.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/66241/annotation/133","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:\u003c/strong\u003e Well, well, there was one chapter in that thing in which I deal with the magical element in religion, the Jewish religion.  I said the trumpets of Jericho is magic.  The bells on the, on the seam of the priests is a magical element. Now, those are non-Jewish interpretations.  They don’t fit in with the, with the concept he had about it.  Magic, he said, is deadly in Jewish religion.  It’s forbidden by penalty of death.  And to, to insinuate that they were magical practice is dangerous.  It, you, you will get, it will get somebody. Beside the point, and that it was Heschel’s typical attitude, and he may have been right.  “You’re a musician — what do you know about rabbinics?  You, you’re venturing into a territory which is none of your business.  Of which you have…”","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=5148.0,5198.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/66241/annotation/134","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"NEIL LEVIN:  All I’m getting at and I don’t want to belabor it, is that there are…I’m curious to know what…there are various explanations. Johanna Spector used to say something similar to this by the way. Other people…say that it’s not the answer. The position is…had there been no rabbinic injunctions or unfriendliness to music…\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  It never got that far. It never got that far. Eventually when I was…when I felt isolated through Heschel, I went to Rabbi Max Kadushin and showed him this. Kadushin, who was a Conservative rabbi, said this, “This is an opus magnum.”  He was deeply impressed with it.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Well, I mean, what I’m getting at is, what is the position, what is your position, that, had the weight of rabbinical authority through the past thousand years…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  Yeah?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=5198.0,5250.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/66241/annotation/135","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"NEIL LEVIN:  …been different, been in favor of, had there been no prohibitions against instruments on Shabbes — whatever you want, whether for good or bad reasons…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  We would have had a body of music…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  But there are other people who would — you can make a case to the contrary.  That’s why I’m curious that Heschel — that the fact is, without a state of our own, without a country, without a nationalism…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  …that you, it wouldn’t have made any difference.  That that’s the answer — that people without a nation, without a state…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  Well…","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=5250.0,5275.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/66241/annotation/136","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eNEIL LEVIN:\u003c/strong\u003e I’m just saying there are different explanations.  That the prohibitions, the rabbinical, the halakhic prohibitions is not the primary reason why there is no national body of, national tradition of Jewish music on the level you said. Or other people can — and then, there’s a third answer.  Which is to say, why is there no French Shakespeare?  Because I don’t care what the French say — there is no French Shakespeare.  And then Molière, and all the others — there’s not a Shakespeare.  On the other hand, there is no English Beethoven.  So, you know, the answer there is yet a third thing — that there are certain cultural differences that just are there.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=5275.0,5306.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/66241/annotation/137","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:\u003c/strong\u003e I, my, my thesis was different.  My thesis was that, given the affinity which we have for music; given the fact that the painting and sculpting were forbidden to us; that the emotional outlet had to be music.  We couldn’t move any other way, because no other art was available. Architecture was a foreign, imported art.  We never claimed that we had an architect.  Even the temples were built by foreign workmen, you know. Music was the thing which we developed on our own.  And every line in the Bible speaking about music testifies. Now, for instance, when you take, even, the, the, the incident in Shmuel, where the story goes about Shmuel’s sickness, and the, the sensitivity — the, the, for instance, they were deeply convinced that, that music has a curing, a therapeutic effect. And when you read, when you take the Book of Psalms — this is what I bring out in my lecture when I go to Germany — this is a libretto which we have written for the whole music of Western civilization.  It could not have been written by a people — whether it’s King David or ten King Davids — it could not have been written by a people who is insensitive towards the emotional scope of, of music, you know.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=5306.0,5386.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/66241/annotation/138","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:\u003c/strong\u003e And shiru l’Adonai shir chadash — eight times, It happens there.  “Why a new song?  Why a new song?”  You know the kabbalistic, beautiful thing is the, the rabbis sit there and they said, “shiru l’Adonai shir chadash — why shouldn’t it be a new song?” And the rabbis said, “Because God created the world.  And if man was created in the image, image of God, he must create.  He is not in the image of God, if he doesn’t create.” Tradition is not creation. And then, the other rabbi ask him — do you know this paragraph in the Kabbalah?  And so, the other rabbi asked him, “How did God create the world?”","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=5386.0,5427.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/66241/annotation/139","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"And he said, “At one point, he exploded an atom.  And all of the bodies above are flying apart.” You don’t know that, from the …?\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  No, because we’re not allowed to study the Zohar.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  Yeah?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  It’s forbidden.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=5427.0,5440.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/66241/annotation/140","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"HERMAN BERLINSKI:  Exploded.  And then, the angel of the heaven, of the heaven got together and sang a song in praise of God; the most beautiful image, you know.  And it, it’s the “Big Bang” theory, but it’s music. So, when the Congregation of Seattle asked me to write a piece for the dedication of their new organ, I knew what I was going to write shiru l’Adonai shir chadash. And the whole story of the Kabbalah is being narrated, in between the numbers they sing.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Um…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  That’s, by the way, also, a very nice cantata.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Let’s, just, the Kiddush Hashem is for what?  What’s the…","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=5440.0,5476.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/66241/annotation/141","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"HERMAN BERLINSKI:  Large choir, large orchestra.  And you know…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  And is there a recording of that?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  No, it’s never been performed.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Is it, is it…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  It rots there, in the Jewish Theological Seminary.  For years, it was lost.  They found it, and everything.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Never performed before.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  Never performed.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Now, tell me about the…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  Now, now, may I just tell this?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Yeah.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=5476.0,5498.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/66241/annotation/142","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"HERMAN BERLINSKI:  The Litanies for the Persecuted, I took these pieces out from Kiddush Hashem.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  I see.  So, actually…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  You see…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  …if we do Litanies for the Persecuted, this is a…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  Because, since it wasn’t performed, I might just as well use it.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Right.  Okay. Now, tell me about the doctoral dissertation.  What was the name of that piece?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=5498.0,5512.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/66241/annotation/143","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"HERMAN BERLINSKI:  Kiddush Hashem.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  No — this, you said this was the master’s.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  No, no.  The master’s were May the Words,, L’kha Dodi — and they were, they were the five little pieces.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Kiddush Hashem was the doctoral?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  The Kiddush Hashem was the doctoral, yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eBARRY SEROTA:  Including Litanies for the Persecuted.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  No, the Litanies was not that part.  No, that was not accepted.  That was a…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  It was extracted from it, really.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  Yeah, yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Now, I see.  Well, what was The Burning Bush?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  That was very funny.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  That was not your doctoral?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  It had nothing to do with it.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eBARRY SEROTA:  That’s an organ piece, isn’t it?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=5512.0,5539.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/66241/annotation/144","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:\u003c/strong\u003e Baker, Robert Baker, who was the senior organist, found that the organ is not sufficient.  It lacks the big trumpets; what we call “the papal trumpets” or “the state trumpets.”  And he, he needed many things which he wanted, to make that organ one of the best organs in town.  And, at that time, he persuaded Saminsky that he should persuade the balebattim to renovate the organ at the tune of $20,000, $22,000.  It would have been about a quarter million dollars today. And they ordered the village tubes — those are those big, big, big trumpets.  They are so big that they have to be mitered.  They’re standing, they have to be bent over, because they cannot sit tall.  There are under different pressure, and they make a formidable sound.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=5539.0,5588.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/66241/annotation/145","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"And they went to the rabbis and they told him, “We want these big trumpets.” And the rabbis said, “Trumpets, smumpets.  We have enough of these.”\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Which rabbi was this?  Mark?  Julius Mark?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  Mark.  And Perlman, yeah, yeah.  Julius Mark. “We have enough of this.  It’s loud enough.” And Baker came to me and he said, “Herman, could you give a little help?” And I said, “I have an idea.” The, they have a shofar stop there, which sounds like a cat meowing, I assure you.  The Hebrew name for trumpet is not shofar.  The Hebrew name is chatzotzrot.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=5588.0,5624.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/66241/annotation/146","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:\u003c/strong\u003e “Don’t tell him they need the papal trumpets and they need state trumpets, and they need oshomad (?).”  This — the organ, it’s a Jewish organ, Temple Emanu-El has no chatzotzrot. And we came back to that meeting, and we presented this.  “No chatzotzrot .” And the rabbis were scratching their head.  “Our organ has no chatzotzrot ?  Gevalt!  Gidoff ma!  We must have chatzotzrot.” So they were ordered.  And when they were finally installed, Baker came to me and he said, “Herman, you’ve got to write a piece where you could use the chatzotzrot. You’ve got to prove that, that something is…”. And I went around and — in other words, the chatzotzrot were installed. And the organ company had to build a map where it’s going to have chatzotzrot.  You can go on the right side, it still, still stays there.  Spelled out chatzotzrot. And I went. And at that time, I was a student of the Jewish Theological Seminary.  And my first idea was to write a piece describing how Samson breaks down the columns of the temple, you know, with the whole thing.  And maybe that’s not uplifting, you know, that, it may not go very well.  And if you want me to, maybe God wanted it. And he said, “Look up.” And I look up and I saw v’hasneh b’ir b’esh— the fire consumed, did not consume the bush.  And then, I knew that I had the piece.  It comes from the Jewish Theological Seminary.  Then I knew I had the piece.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=5624.0,5724.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/66241/annotation/147","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"HERMAN BERLINSKI: And, at that point, I asked myself, I could take the cantellation with Rossovsky, with, you know, with voca dah, but that would not, I wanted it, I wanted a, a burning bush. And I could find no melody which possibly could insinuate, which could transmit that feeling.  And I went back to the text, and I found that when Moses asked God, “In whose name shall I come?”  And then, he gets this famous “Asher ehyeh asher .”  Da-da-da-dum, da-dum, da-da-dum.  So, instead of a theme, I had a rhythmical cell. And I said, with this rhythmical cell, I can do anything I want to.  And I used 12-tone techniques at the beginning, and through the whole thing.  But this thing goes through the whole thing.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  This is an organ piece?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  An organ piece.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Strictly an organ piece.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  There’s a recording of it, of course?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  There have been five or six recordings.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Yeah.  Okay. Now, I want to ask you about that Avodat Shabbat.  Now, is that Avodat Ha Shabbat or is that Avodat Shabbat?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  Avodat Shabbat.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Avodat Shabbat.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Tell me about it.  How did it…","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=5724.0,5800.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/66241/annotation/148","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"HERMAN BERLINSKI:  Well, at that time, Dave Putterman and I knew each other from the Jewish Music Forum.  And if you didn’t get commissioned by David Putterman sooner or later, you didn’t count.  I think Weisgall never got, and he had never, never overcome it.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eBARRY SEROTA:  Weisgall was commissioned to write a hashkiveinu.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  Yeah.  That I’m aware.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eBARRY SEROTA:  And I believe that, at the service where it was supposed to be performed, the music had not yet arrived.  So, in that particular spot, Putterman improvised on that particular text.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=5800.0,5834.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/66241/annotation/149","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:\u003c/strong\u003e Well, Putterman did not commission me right away.  He said, “I want you to write one piece for me.”  And he said, “Write for me a V’sham’ru.” And I wrote him a V’sham’ru.  And I must say, in all honesty, I’m very proud of the piece.  But, sugar and honey and soft and melodious, and anything I could invent to make that piece pleasant, I did there; that V’sham’ru.” And he liked it very much.  And he performed it at a concert, maybe at that same evening when Weisgall’s piece was not there.  So, that was a contemporary evening. But after the V’sham’ru, he immediately commissioned me to write a whole service.  I got a whole $250 for it. And I must say that, that at that time, of course, I was organist at Temple Emanu-El.  And it helped me a great deal, because, in spite of the competition and animosity between the Conservative and the Reform, they had, had a lot of, a lot of respect for Putterman’s work and for Putterman’s things. And Richard Korn went there to conduct.  And it was a wonderful evening.  It was a very wonderful evening.  And Putterman, who was in already declining voice, but with so much conviction and so much style and so much nobility, sang it, that it left a mark there.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=5834.0,5910.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/66241/annotation/150","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"NEIL LEVIN:  I want you to know that in 196.. — I don’t know — ‘5, ‘6, ‘7 — I showed something to Weisgall.  Didn’t know him then.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  Yeah?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  And he said, he didn’t think it was very good.  And it wasn’t, you know.  It was just imitating old-fashioned, for the synagogue.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  And then, I showed him a few other things.  And we talked about what, and he said, “Listen.  You want to look at something serious?  Look at Herman Berlinski’s Avodat.”\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  Yeah?  Well, Weisgall always….And, and, and the sad part of it is that I had the same dilemma with Weisgall that I had with Saminsky.  I did perform Weisgall — his May the Words and his Mi Kamocha — and at the congregation.  And I took a, took a little bit of a risk in these things.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=5910.0,5956.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/66241/annotation/151","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:\u003c/strong\u003e But Weisgall did not understand that there is a natural dichotomy between writing for the synagogue and writing for the concert hall or the opera.  That, that in a synagogue, you are, your music is directional.  It, it goes to God, which is one dimension.  But it goes to the congregation, is another dimension.  And if a hazzan is a shaliach tzibbur, so must be the composer.  You cannot express to God, in one sense, what the congregation does not feel.  That there are compromises to be made, I admit.  I have made them, too. But you cannot possibly — and that Weisgall, I think, was that this is absolutely un — he, he wouldn’t move.  He wrote what he wanted to write, and they liked it fine or they didn’t like it — it didn’t make any difference to him.  But at least now, you, you’ll bring it back.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=5956.0,6015.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/66241/annotation/152","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:\u003c/strong\u003e The first encounter between Weisgall, Saminsky and I was when Weisgall gave a concert at Chizuk Amuno in Baltimore sometime in 1953, or at that point, where he did some Weisgall for his own work. He did some Saminsky work; and he did my, the first L’kha dodi which I have written.  That is not part of the Avodat Shabbat — I did a, I wrote a different L’kha dodi for the Avodat Shabbat.  This is another one.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=6015.0,6045.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/66241/annotation/153","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"BARRY SEROTA:  Weisgall was rather close with Saminsky, wasn’t he?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  Weisgall was very close to Saminsky.  And, and, and at one point, and I, Weisgall told me, he wanted to be his successor, too.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eBARRY SEROTA:  Now, among the people who were close with Weisgall, there were other people who had associations with Saminsky.  I think Miriam Gideon.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  Miriam, yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eBARRY SEROTA:  And Albert Weiser.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=6045.0,6068.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/66241/annotation/154","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:\u003c/strong\u003e Yes, I, I — let me speak first about Albert Weisser.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlbert Weisser was — I wouldn’t call him a musicologist — more of a writer on music, more on a literary level, you understand?  And was actually destined to write the biography of Saminsky.  And he was his personal biographer, and was supposed to write the great work on Saminsky.  And unfortunately, he died very young. He, I have one or two compositions — you know that Weisser is the son of the Cantor Pilar Weisser.  And, and some compositions of Albert Weisser which shows him to be a very talented composer.  Unfortunately, he never wrote enough to, to develop it. Because, in composition, it is not only a qualitative, but there’s also a quantitative aspect of it.  You’ve got to write a lot of music — even write a lot of bad music, in, in order to write some good music. You, you know, at one point, when I came to Nadia Boulanger in my younger years, and she asked me, “What did you bring me today?” And I said, “I didn’t have any inspirations this week.” And she said, “Don’t you ever dare to come with that stupid excuse, because if you write, you write, good or bad.  If you don’t write, you write nothing.  There’s nothing to talk about.” And quantitatively, Weisser did not, never wrote enough to, to become on his own.  But I have very fond memories of it.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=6068.0,6153.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/66241/annotation/155","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"HERMAN BERLINSKI: Miriam was an enormously talented girl, in my opinion, also, with a native melodic instinct which would have resulted into some very, very important music, if she did not have come under the influence of Weisgall on the other side, and Roger Sessions on the other side. Don’t forget that the tremendous influence which the 12-tone school, the Roger Sessions school, the whole avant-gardist school, exerted on composers has sometimes tarnished the very source out of which the music flows.  They didn’t listen to their own voices.  They listened to so many other voices. And, on the other hand, when you were applying for a Guggenheim Fellowship, for this fellowship or that fellowship, and you did not belong to the guild of the 12-tone people, you didn’t have a chance.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN: How did Weisgall’s influence impact negatively on Gideon?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=6153.0,6211.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/66241/annotation/156","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"HERMAN BERLINSKI:  Weisgall was a past master in getting every, every grant, every commission, everything he wanted to because he, he belonged to that, what I call “the guild.”\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  But how was that a negative — you mean, that was also a negative influence on Gideon, you feel?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  I think it, it, it left, it left, it robbed Gideon of her own natural, very soft, feminine — she would have been a wonderful composer, if, if, if she would have not have the ambition to, to be somebody in that surrounding.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  She had two Friday, two Sabbath services.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  Yeah, I know this.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Now, so back to Avodat Shabbat.  This was, the first performance was at Park Avenue Synagogue?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  Yes.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Now, you’ve had other performances.  Tell me — you had, you then subsequently orchestrated it?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=6211.0,6257.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/66241/annotation/157","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:\u003c/strong\u003e Well, the opportunity came with Rabbi Klausner — Abraham Klausner, of Temple Emanu-El.  His cantor was Jerold Siena, you know, the singer at the City Center Opera.  And he had suggested to Rabbi Klausner that they should Avodat Shabbat, but he would need an octet for it.  They usually have a quartet because they have sometimes two sopranos. And Klausner was very much in doubt whether he could have the money to have an octet.  And he said, “Well, let me see what I could do.  I have a friend I want to show this score.”","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=6257.0,6296.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/66241/annotation/158","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"HERMAN BERLINSKI:  And what I didn’t know that the friend was Leonard Bernstein.  And he showed the score to Leonard Bernstein, and he — Leonard Bernstein wrote a letter to him, that he has seen the Berlinski score and he found it very touching, very moving.  And he said, “If you don’t do it, I will.” With that letter, Klausner went to 838 Fifth Avenue and got himself $25,000.  And I orchestrated it. And at that night, when it was done with Barkin, we, we had the Jeremiah symphony of Leonard Bernstein and my Avodat Shabbat.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Where was this?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  At Lincoln Center.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  And what year was that?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  1964, exactly.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  ’64?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  Yeah.  And there was, I was just one year…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  And, of course, it’s a pity there’s no recording of that.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  I have no recording of that.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  You don’t have a recording of the Avodat Shabbat that you…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  Not, none whatsoever.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Not a good one.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  No.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=6296.0,6349.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/66241/annotation/159","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"NEIL LEVIN:  You don’t have a recording with orchestra or without orchestra?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  Of which one?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Avodat Shabbat.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  No, nothing.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eBARRY SEROTA:  There’s an archival recording.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Archival.  Yeah, I know.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eBARRY SEROTA:  From Park Avenue.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  But I mean, not a good….  So, we need to record that.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eIn Washington, what were, what was your repertoire?  I mean, how much of your own music did you…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  Now…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  You were there from ’63 until you retired.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  Let me…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  When did you retire?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  Let me tell you first how I got to Washington, because that has some importance to me.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  At the time you got it, there was no cantor in that synagogue, was there?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=6349.0,6381.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/66241/annotation/160","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"HERMAN BERLINSKI:  Washington had no cantor.  At that time, Yasser told me, you know, “How much they are paying you?” And I said, X amount of money. And he said, “Do you have a cantor?” And I said no. He said, “Take a thousand dollars less,”  Yasser told me. And, however, they had Max Helfman.  Max Helfman came there for the Yamim Noraim, for their High Holidays; and the rabbinical family, the Gerstenfelds, very much befriended with Eric Werner.  I don’t know how Werner got to them, but Werner was a very close friend to them.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eBARRY SEROTA:  And I mentioned to you that I had a recording of Werner’s service as performed at a High Holidays in Washington Hebrew Congregation?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=6381.0,6429.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/66241/annotation/161","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"HERMAN BERLINSKI:  Yes.  And Werner’s music is about the worst German, Teutonic type of Jewish music I know of.  What, what is, what is not Werner is so-so Lewandowski, they better be left alone to their own thing.  But it, it, it is, it is stodgy, really stodgy. However, the, I was called to Washington, and, and Rabbi Gerstenfeld, he said, “I want you to come to Washington, because they have hired, at the Kaye Theater, Mr. Saubi.  And this is going to be a center of Episcopalian music.  I’m hiring you.”\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHe came from Chicago — you remember him?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Leon, Leon…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  Yeah.  Leon Saubi.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  “I want you to be the center of Jewish music here.” And I said, “This is exactly what I want.  At Temple Emanu-El, I’m going to be for the rest of my life number three.  Cantor Wolfson, a goyishe organist, and I.”  And we had a pact that I could do anything I wanted to.  So, I could perform a great deal.  And the repertoire was, was, every week was sensational.  Indeed, I had one, one, one situation whereby The Washington Post and The Washington Star came at least once a month to the Washington Hebrew Congregation, to find out what’s going on musically and report about it.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Is your position in Washington Hebrew Congregation — that was as music director and organist?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=6429.0,6508.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/66241/annotation/162","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"HERMAN BERLINSKI:  Yeah.  Music director, organist, and then, later on, they gave me the title of minister of music, because they, due to the fact that they had no cantor and they wanted to have a Jewish musical…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  This was the congregation that received a famous letter from George Washington?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  They, they have some…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Or something.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=6508.0,6525.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/66241/annotation/163","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"HERMAN BERLINSKI:  It’s a very historical congregation.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Isn’t there something that — have you seen it?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eBARRY SEROTA:  I recall…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  There was a letter somewhere from George Washington to this group, before it — of course, it wasn’t Washington.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  This, this I really don’t, don’t….  I know that Charleston, South Carolina had a charter.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  There was some letter…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  …by George Washington.  Anyway…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eBARRY SEROTA:  But they also went to the Touro Synagogue.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  No, this is something else.  But maybe I’m confused.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eBARRY SEROTA:  He wrote a lot of letters.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Yeah.  This congregation engaged a cantor subsequently.  I mean, now they have a cantor — that’s Manevich.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  Of course they do.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Is it Manevich?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  Yeah, Manevich.\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  So, when…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  And I, I, I got him.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  You brought in Manevich?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  I, I brought Manevich, yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  So, was he the first cantor there?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  No, it was, the other one was Roy Garber.\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Roy Garber.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  Roy Garber, yeah.  Who came from, from Kansas City.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  So, when did they decide to have a cantor?  Because…","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=6525.0,6575.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/66241/annotation/164","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:\u003c/strong\u003e Well, well, let me say this.  Pure demographically, like all the Temple Emanu-Els, the Washington Hebrew Congregation also was a German-Jewish settlement.  A congregation who, who was dominated by German-Jewish tradition. And, as such, they were accustomed to, if not to the kind of music I would do, but at least to the fact that the music comes from the front into the congregation; a representational type of music liturgy with here and there a song the congregation was allowed to sing along.  They did not know about davening or anything like this.  It was a typical German Reform.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=6575.0,6616.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/66241/annotation/165","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Now, as time went on, Gerstenfeld eventually died.  After the first five years he was dead, during those five years, I could do almost anything I wanted to. However, it is not so that Gerstenfeld was ruling that place without any limitation.  Gerstenfeld sold me to this congregation not as a music, not as a composer, not as an organist — he sold me that, with this man, we can teach bar mitzvah.  For the first time, you have a first-class bar mitzvah teacher. And I jumped in with a great deal of joy, and nothing gave me more joy than to teach little kids to chant the bruchas, and the haftorah and the maftir.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  But they were chanting it there?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  Oh, yes.  I taught those things.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Because in most classrooms…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  There was an — absolutely not.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  …it was forbidden.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=6616.0,6658.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/66241/annotation/166","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"HERMAN BERLINSKI:  It was forbidden.  Just the same, as I introduced \tthe shofar, that’s why I composed a shofar service.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  You mean, instead of the trumpet?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eBARRY SEROTA:  Or the stop on the organ.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  You, you, you know that, you know the Mishna a \u003cbr\u003elittle bit.  You know, the Mishna says, very clearly, on Rosh Hashanah, the shofar and two trumpets overlaid with gold; and the shalosh regolim, the shofar and two trumpets overlaid with silver.  So, I wrote a shofar service, a shofar and two trumpets overlaid with brass, but the…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  And the shofar service has been recorded?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  No.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  We’re going to record that.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=6658.0,6690.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/66241/annotation/167","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"HERMAN BERLINSKI:  That is a very nice service.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  For the organ, of course.  That’s…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  That’s all.  That’s organ, two trumpets.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  And, in any case, I earned my keep as a bar mitzvah teacher. However, what happened is that the, the next generation were no, no more Germans.  The German immigration had stopped, and the next generation was Eastern.  And there were, we had families who legitimately — I mean, it’s, they said, “We want a cantor on the pulpit.  We don’t want a non-Jew to come up there singing us the Shema Yisrael. And I, coming from Eastern European stock, ideologically and sentimentally, could have no argument against it.  I, I wasn’t offended by this.  I enjoyed an imperial position at, at the Washington Hebrew Congregation.  It’s an uncontested rule.  But at the same time, I sat down, I said, if they want a cantor, there’s nothing you can do about it.  So finally, when, when the situation became, when I had reached retirement age — two years above — when I was 67, the question came very close, “We want you to go.”","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=6690.0,6766.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/66241/annotation/168","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"HERMAN BERLINSKI:  I mean, they, they didn’t fire me.  They gave me a very, very generous settle — I had no retirement contract.  Not, not a single piece of paper which, which would oblige them to pay me a nickel.  And after long haggling and so, did they give me a very dignified retirement pension, including my wife.  And I couldn’t live the life I live now if it were not for the Washington Hebrew Congregation.  And I still live on that, you know.  And they treated me well, in this instance. But a cantor came.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Well, the cantor came, but you still need an organist, and a music director.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=6766.0,6799.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/66241/annotation/169","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"HERMAN BERLINSKI:  Well, look — let’s, let’s speak \u003cINAUDIBLE\u003e.  I, my last salary in 1979 was $18,500.  That was my last salary, the highest.  I was replaced with an organist who got $3,000.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  And who directed the music, the choir, the concerts?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  And they, the, the cantor became director of music.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Oh, the cantor.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  He, he got in with, between $35,000 and $38,000.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Tell me about the concerts you used to do at, annually, around Hanukkah time — you know, at the Cathedral?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=6799.0,6826.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/66241/annotation/170","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"HERMAN BERLINSKI:  Well, you mean the Kennedy Center?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Well, I’m not sure.  First it was — did you do some at the Washington Cathedral or the National Cathedral?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  Well, we, there, there are two, types of concerts that was active until quite a few years ago now.  And when I had left the Washington Hebrew Congregation, I felt a tremendous void.  I had been accustomed to, to, to conduct, and I had been accustomed to do new things, and I had been accustomed to compose on Monday and perform it on Friday — you understand? And so, a wealthy patron of the Washington Hebrew Congregation and, also, Mrs. Gerstenfeld, the widow of, of the rabbi, gave me some money to form my own choir.  And we formed the choir, Shir Chadash, which was a professional choir.  We had some, some 16 people there, with a few talented people who sang with me already at the Washington Hebrew Congregation. And we, we performed anything from Rossi to Schoenberg.  And our major objects were twofold.  Every year, we did a major concert at Hanukkah time, at the Kennedy Center, which were sponsored by the city and, and supported by the Kennedy Center administration.  And every, between Rosh Hashanah and Yom Kippur, we did a concert for the High Holidays, for the non-Jewish community. And we had sometimes over a thousand people coming there.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=6826.0,6906.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/66241/annotation/171","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"NEIL LEVIN:  This was all sponsored, underwritten?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  And, and that was, partially, I got the money from, from wealthy patrons of the congregation.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  So, what happened?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  And partially…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  It doesn’t happen anymore, now?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  No.  I had, I had to dissolve it.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Why?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  I got old.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  And so, why didn’t someone else take it over?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  I didn’t have anyone in Washington.  I would have loved to.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  No protégé who could take it over?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  I had none, nobody there who, who would have assisted me, first, and then take it.  But I would have loved it. I told, I did, I still have the, the conducting baton of Saminsky with his name engraved in it.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  What would it take to revive that annual thing, that tradition?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=6906.0,6941.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/66241/annotation/172","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"HERMAN BERLINSKI:  Let me tell you that, that the Kennedy Center, at that time, was given over to a Black man, who considered me an ethnic minority.  And he wanted to have the farbrengen people coming in.  And he, he, he went down to the lowest denominator. We had wonderful programs — very classy.  We, we did always, a good portion of Handel’s Judas Maccabeus, as backbone, and then, we added a lot of Jewish…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  So, okay.  Are you telling me that it would be…today it would be difficult to do that kind of thing?\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  The farbrengen don’t even get the concerts anymore. They come in and do a little in the foyer when people walk by, and do a little bit Hanukkah…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  You…you wouldn’t be able to do…do, how about in the cathedral?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=6941.0,6994.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/66241/annotation/173","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:\u003c/strong\u003e I don’t have the guts anymore to do it; raise the money for it. And the cathedral, I had a heart attack right in the middle of the concert, the last concert, and went to the hospital.  And at that time, I wound up with a fourfold, four-bypass operation. And the next year, The Cathedral also went back to the, to the farbrengen people, they, they got a new New York orchestra.  But they, they discontinued.  Today, there is no Jewish music anymore played at the Cathedral.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=6994.0,7020.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/66241/annotation/174","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"NEIL LEVIN:  To move to a kind of general statement, we’ve talked about a lot of pieces of yours.  And I think we’ve got some interesting information about a lot of pieces.  But if you had to give a general description of your technique, of your style — I mean, you’re not a serial, 12-tone composer, in the classic sense.  Or maybe you were, at one time.  Did you go through that period?  But what, what kind of approach…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  Well …\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  …do you think applies to your music?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  You want it in one sentence?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  No.  Five sentences.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=7020.0,7050.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/66241/annotation/175","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:\u003c/strong\u003e I called last week a girl in Dresden who sings in the choir.  And I asked her, “How are the rehearsals of Job going?” And she said, “Well, we have done your stuff before.  It’s Berlinski.  It’s Berlinski.” And, and, and it sums it up. I, I most probably have evolved into a style which, which, which bears my brand name.  If you want to decompose it into, I would have to, to tell you, for a man who has — the first year of conservatory in Leipzig, you play nothing but Bach to such a point that it is etched in your skin and your mind and your fingers, until there is, you never get rid of it, the rest of your life.  You think in polyphonic, polyphonic terms, whether you like it or not. Now, essentially, Jewish music is not, by nature, polyphonic.  And so, you have to find your way how the polyphonic element can — it becomes, very often, heterophonic.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=7050.0,7110.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/66241/annotation/176","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"HERMAN BERLINSKI:  The Leipzig school went from the romantic — to Brahms, who still is a presence in Leipzig — to Max Reger, who was very, very, chromatic — contrapuntal things.  He made a deep influence on me. Some Germans feel that Max Reger still spooks in my work.  That there are some elements to me that, some Germans feel that, that I could not have written the music without having been exposed. And I played a lot of Reger.  Indeed, my, my concert license, I played the famous Telemann scene, by, Reger.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Now…","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=7110.0,7146.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/66241/annotation/177","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"HERMAN BERLINSKI:  And that came, that came to nil, when I came to Nadia Boulanger.  And the first thing they told me, she said, “Throw all this Teutonic boredom out.  We have to clean that out, all the way.  It’s nothing.  It’s no good.  The Leipzig school is a thing of the past.” And then, we were exposed to Stravinsky, and to the French school.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  What would you say, on your pieces, whether the organ pieces or the large choral pieces — I mean, you have some very dramatic works.  What would you say that the major influence, in terms of other composers, were?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=7146.0,7176.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/66241/annotation/178","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:\u003c/strong\u003e Well, there are, there are, depending on where I come from.  And let me also say this — when composers speak about their own work, take it with a word of caution, because the composers are the last people to know what motivates them, and how, how the creative process really works, you understand. I see traces, definitely, of Max Reger.  And he’s not a great composer, here, considered.  Still, he is a composer who, who has some importance. I, I see, I do not conceive any work which does not come from an inner voice that means that I can sing it.  Even if it’s atonal, it must still come from the homophone line.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=7176.0,7214.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/66241/annotation/179","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"HERMAN BERLINSKI:  And the fact that I studied quite a few years with Max Wohlberg has made a very deep-lasting, impregnation of my own thinking.  I cannot think of a melody which does not, in way or the other way, reflects this, this, by osmosis — what do I want to say? — absorption of Jewish materials. Can I ever get rid of it?  How my father chanted the Haggadah?  And my father chanted it in a typical, typical East European manner.  And even we came back from Carlebach and sang the, the, the melodies which we sang, where we were taught at school, and my father said, “What kind of goyim nachis are you singing there?”\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Is there, for example, let’s return to Avodat Shabbat.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  The Friday night service.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Do you make use of any traditional musical material?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=7214.0,7274.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/66241/annotation/180","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:\u003c/strong\u003e I use, I make use of two elements.  One was that I tried to get a harmonic structure which does justice to the modal character of the melody.  The opening Ma Tovu is definitely in the, out of the  Adonai Malach mode — you understand? And then, the, the open fourth, the, the, the refusal of using just simple triads as turning to dominant, sub-dominant, but going to the modal scheme.  That comes both, on the one side, Yossel, and on the other, Isidore Fried, also, is shown. Isidore Fried, more conventional than I did it, there, because Isidore Fried did try to do, to fit the modal scheme into a perfectly consonant motion that makes this music very delightful, but also, very bland, at the same time, you know, very digestible.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=7274.0,7327.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/66241/annotation/181","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"HERMAN BERLINSKI:  I went one step further and said, this modal scheme has built-in dissonances.  And these built-in dissonances actually give that more character — a, a, something of a stronger masculinity.  And that is in Avodat Shabbat there. The traditional melody which I used is in the L’kha Dodi, which is a Portuguese melody.  (Hums a little of it) And if I were to do it today, again, I would, would most probably treat it differently.  I would treat it differently.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Did the, would you consider yourself, I mean, a tonal composer or an atonal composer?  Or is there no such thing as an atonal?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=7327.0,7375.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/66241/annotation/182","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"HERMAN BERLINSKI:  Well, yes.  The 12-tone is definitely a tonality is it…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  I didn’t say 12-tone; I said atonal.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  Yeah, yeah.  And I consider myself a composer who considered consonance and dissonance as the two poles, a two, two-polar system which, which, together, amounted to the musical idiom.  That is the language. It consists — like, I am not a black composer; I am not a white composer.  It’s, it’s black and white, which are the two different colors. I consider dissonance, still, as an expression of inner tension.  And you can go from dissonance to dissonance and, and intensify the density of your dissonant writing.  But there is no work of mine, and I don’t, can’t, can’t think of one, where a consonance in the solution does not play a very important role.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=7375.0,7429.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/66241/annotation/183","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:\u003c/strong\u003e And if you listen to the Symphony for Cello and Organ, a very, very, very dissonant work, but with very many, many consonant elements there. So, it’s not an element — dissonant or not dissonant, or tonal or not tonal.  They are both elements.  The tonality is the, the polarity to atonality.  It is the opposite of atonality.  But one does not go without the other one.  The both elements must work together.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAnd I’m not doing this out of a complement — I’m doing this out of natural inclination.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=7429.0,7472.53333"}]},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/34541","type":"AnnotationPage","label":{"en":["Final Transcript [Transcript]"]},"items":[{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/34541/annotation/184","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:\u003c/strong\u003e On November 9th, Job is going to be presented in Dresden, on the same day as they will turn over the first piece of earth to build a new synagogue.  In the morning, there is going to be ground-breaking, and in the evening, they’re going to present these things.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=15.0,33.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/34541/annotation/185","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"NEIL LEVIN:  Now, Job is being done in German.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  In German, yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Has it been done in English?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  It has been done in English at the Kennedy Center, and no more or less \u003cINAUDIBLE\u003e the Job.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Is there a recording of that?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  Unfortunately, not.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  So you don’t have a good recording of Job in English?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  No.  I have no recording in English.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Job requires a full chorus?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=33.0,51.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/34541/annotation/186","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"HERMAN BERLINSKI:  It requires a full chorus, it requires a full orchestra.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  How long is it?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  It is — you asked me a question I can’t answer, because…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  About?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  I would say an evening-filling work.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  It’s a full-length.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  Yeah, it’s a full-length’s work.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Well, we will, we need…","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=51.0,71.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/34541/annotation/187","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"HERMAN BERLINSKI:  I’ll, I’ll tell you, then.  This choir, in Dresden, can do it in English as well as in German.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  But you would have to arrange for them to — could you arrange for them to do it?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  The question is, with, that they, once they know the music, or…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Yeah.  I mean, afterwards.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=71.0,86.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/34541/annotation/188","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"HERMAN BERLINSKI:  …it is a difficult piece of music.  And once they know the music — I don’t know any German at this time who doesn’t speak English.  Everybody speaks English.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  The Dresden — which chorus is it?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  It’s the Dresden Chamber Choir.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  And the orchestra?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=86.0,101.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/34541/annotation/189","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"HERMAN BERLINSKI:  The orchestra is members of the Dresden Philharmonic.  And the, the soloists — I mean, the, the soloists we would have to change.  This, this I wouldn’t want to have with, with German soloists.  Because…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  No.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  In the choir, choir is one thing.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  No, no.  That’s not…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  But the soloist is…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  You see, we can bring the soloists.  That’s not a problem.  But we’d have to arrange for a deal with a chorus where we, if it’s not a professional chorus — this is probably, the singers are not paid themselves?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  No, no.  They are, they are…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  So, we’d make a contribution.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=101.0,130.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/34541/annotation/190","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"HERMAN BERLINSKI:  They are all students of the Hochschule für Musik of Dresden.\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Perfect.  So this is, we could make arrangements to record much of your music with them, if you can facilitate this.  We’ll talk about it after we’re finished today.  But if you can facilitate it in Dresden, and then, if we need, you know, we can, we’ll make a contribution to — you know, there are many different — we can pay the…","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=130.0,151.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/34541/annotation/191","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"HERMAN BERLINSKI:  Okay.  Now, I’m going to record now for radio, my Symphony No. 1 — The Litanies for the Persecuted.  That’s going to be recorded on November the 2nd.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Now, but you, Litanies for the Persecuted, you have a, you have a good tape of that.  I heard it, didn’t I?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  I have a very good tape in English, but this is going to be recorded in German.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Oh.  But Litanies, you, the tape you have in English is good.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Who sings that?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=151.0,175.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/34541/annotation/192","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"HERMAN BERLINSKI:  Well, Charlotte Dixon was the alto narrator, and, Anne Chodoff, which is absolutely superb.  We did that, we, I’m using the recording which I did at the Park Avenue Synagogue.  When we dedicated the Archives there.  That was…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  So, wasn’t that with Myra Merritt?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  Who?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Myra Merritt?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003e\t\tHERMAN BERLINSKI:  Myra Merritt did the Cantatas of Rachel.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Oh.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  We had two.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  But that recording from Park Avenue is a good — you’re happy with it?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=175.0,205.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/34541/annotation/193","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"HERMAN BERLINSKI:  It’s a good recording.  Whether, whether it, it is, you would accept it commercially — that’s another question.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eYou know, I, I have found out that don’t trust the composer on this one.  Don’t trust the com…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  I always trust the composer.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  Mmm?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  I always ask the composer.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=205.0,224.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/34541/annotation/194","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:\u003c/strong\u003e Ask the composer.  But I, I’m so delighted to hear my music that I sometimes forgive a lot of things which go by.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eI have now recorded a beautiful recording of my Symphony No. 10 for Cello and Organ.  And there’s a new recording outfit in, Washington… Elan [Elan Recordings].  There’s this Rodriguez and, his wife Natasha.  They are just tremendous.  And I was delighted with it.  I was delighted with it.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=224.0,252.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/34541/annotation/195","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"And the cellist [Lori Barnet] came back and said, “My foot,” she says, “you’ve got to change this, you’ve got to change this, you’ve got to change this.”  And she had a lot, a lot of things.  And I think she’s right.  I was more inclined to forgive than she was. So the bot, the, the composer is not the last instance on evaluating how good a recording is.  You ask the performer also.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  You, the more we can find among your own tapes — good recordings — the more we can include of your music here.  Because if we find a good tape of one piece, then we don’t have to record it, so we can spend our resources recording another piece.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  That’s the trick, you see, so, if, for example, we can find a good recording of Litanies for the Persecuted, and of The Beadle of Prague, and of the things that we want…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  …then we’ll have the money, we won’t have to spend money on that.  We can use that money to record…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  …something that you don’t have a recording.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  That’s the trick.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=252.0,312.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/34541/annotation/196","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"HERMAN BERLINSKI:  Right.  By, by the way, The Beadle of Prague doesn’t exist anymore.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  What do you mean?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  The composition of Beadle of Prague has been radically changed.  It’s called Etz Chayim.  Because the original version of The Beadle of Prague, remember, was in connection with the exhibition, The Precious Legacy, at the Smithsonian. And Arnost Lustig, at that time, wrote the libretto.  And the libretto was very poor.  I did not set one syllable of Arnost Lustig into music.  Let me tell — that text could not be composed.  So I used, choose different texts around this, and we just kept this as dialogue.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAnd then, he started making exorbitant financial demands.  He, he, he had some naïve idea that, that thousands of dollars are made with this.  And at that point, I said, “Look.  If, if, if you’ll make these kind of demands,” and the, the performing agent was the Dresden Choir, and they didn’t want to pay that.  And they said, “We are accustomed to pay for Oscar Borgamonti Collecting Agency, and that’s what the performance fee is.”","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=312.0,376.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/34541/annotation/197","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"So finally, by mutual disagreement, did we, did we eliminated the Lustig text and then substituted other texts.  Some of them, I wrote myself. Now, the same music is there, but it’s called Etz Chayim.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  But why can’t you call it The Beadle of Prague?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  Because that was part of the original things, where Lustig was involved.  I mean, that, that, that would, that would have been controversial.  Because under this title, the first version was there.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=376.0,404.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/34541/annotation/198","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"And, and then I ran into trouble with, with Mark Talisman about the, the story of this Mrs. Rosen.  I don’t know whether you know that, that incident; that woman in, in Theresienstadt who, who taught the kids how to plant trees.  And her daughter is still alive, you know, was then.  And part of the cantata that, was that particular element, of the woman who taught children how to do it, to plant trees, you know, which they never saw growing. And Talisman wanted to copyright this under his name.  It was very complicated. It’s, this, this, the music is there.  All it is, and it’s beautifully performed, it’s called Etz Chayim.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  But it’s the same music?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  The same music.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Oh, that’s fine.  So, the question is, is there a good, do you have a good recording of it?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=404.0,453.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/34541/annotation/199","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"HERMAN BERLINSKI:  I have a very fine recording of this one.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  So that we could include.  You see, if we don’t have to — because I think that those are two pieces that we must have, of yours, in this series of recordings.  We must have The Beadle of Prague or Etz Chayim, and we must have the piece For the Persecuted, and so forth.  So, if you have good recordings, then, we can save that money we have in the budget for Herman Berlinski…","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=453.0,477.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/34541/annotation/200","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"HERMAN BERLINSKI:  Well, I’m sure that you would want to have— but this is already recorded — The Symphony for Cello and Organ.  But once, once we’re finished with the corrections.  But that’s being released by CRI.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Doesn’t matter.  We can license it, probably, for a small fee.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Because CRI only reaches a small audience.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  Yeah?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Whereas this project will reach…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  …an enormous audience.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=477.0,495.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/34541/annotation/201","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"HERMAN BERLINSKI:  I mean, I, I consider the Symphonia for Cello and, and Organ one of the…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Does that have a Jewish title?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  Yes.  The first, the first one is Mi’ma’amakim— Out of the Depths Have I Cried Unto Thee; and the second one is actually a variation on Av harachamim by Avraham  Dunayevsky.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Well, you did that in Munich last year, or two years ago, didn’t you?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  I never did this in Germany.  I never did this in Germany.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Oh, that’s Sh’virat HaKelim?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  Hmm?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Sh’virat HaKelim?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  A Sh’virat HaKelim, that I have good recordings.  I have two good recordings.  And I have, I have them on compact disc.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  But the soloist is not such a great soloist, as I recall, on that.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  She was pretty good.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  No, no.  The baritone.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  No, the, Sh’virat HaKelim I did for soprano.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Oh, then, there’s something else I’m thinking of.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  No.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eBARRY SEROTA:  What about that symphonic work of yours that was…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  Which one?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eBARRY SEROTA:  It was a symphonic work of yours on CRI.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  Ah, yes.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eBARRY SEROTA:  That was recorded in the ‘50s.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  That’s an early work.  I mean, you…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eBARRY SEROTA:  You had Biblical titles for each of the movements.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=495.0,560.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/34541/annotation/202","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"HERMAN BERLINSKI:  Yeah, there are Biblical titles for each.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eBARRY SEROTA:  What work was that?  Which work was that?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  That is Symphonic Visions.  I wrote this in 1949 or so.  It’s very early.  I wrote this, actually, while I was a student of Olivier Messiaen.  And showed it to him, and he was very, he was very much taken with it.  That, that was a long time ago.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=560.0,583.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/34541/annotation/203","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"And at that time — the, later on, when I became organist at Temple Emmanuel, Richard Korn started recording all kind of music.  And he, at his own expenses, hired the Asahi Symphony Orchestra, in Tokyo.  And he took that score with him to Tokyo, where they copied it and made the part of it, and performed it there. And it’s not a bad performance.  But I can imagine a better performance of this one.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  There is a recording?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  The, the CRI.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eBARRY SEROTA:  I think you have it.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Oh, that’s the piece…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  That’s right.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Yes.  On LP.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=583.0,621.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/34541/annotation/204","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"HERMAN BERLINSKI:  And they have re, they have reissued it already on, on long-playing.  But it’s not on, not on compact disc.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  It’s a big orchestra?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  A big symphony orchestra, yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Back to the Cello and Orchestra.  In other words…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  Cello and Organ.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Cello and Organ.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  The Mi’ma’amakim is cello and organ.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=621.0,638.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/34541/annotation/205","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"HERMAN BERLINSKI:  The Mi’ma’amakim is the first movement.  \t\t\t\tAnd the Av Harahamim is the second movement.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  And that’s the Dunayevsky?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  The Dunayevsky melody, yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  And there’s no recording of that?\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  We just recorded it for CRI.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Oh, oh, oh, this one.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  But they’re going to release it in January.  I said that the…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Who is the cellist?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=638.0,655.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/34541/annotation/206","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"HERMAN BERLINSKI:  Lori Barnet.  She’s wonderful. I have a set of composition — I think, Barry, you know about it — called, they go all under the title of The World of My Father.  I used that title long before it was used by — who wrote the book of…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eBARRY SEROTA:  Irving Howe.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  Yeah.  Long before that.  So we have no copyright problem with this.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=655.0,678.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/34541/annotation/207","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"And that music goes back to my younger days, when I was music director, director of a Yiddish theater.  Now, this is, this, this Yiddish theater, The PIAT – Paris Jewish Avant Garde Theater – was one of the finest Jewish theaters ever, because these were the survivors of the Vilna Art Tropa, who, who came to Paris.  And we did Praise My Parents, by Sholem Aleichem — everything, you know; even some, some Russian-Jewish writers, at that time.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=678.0,705.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/34541/annotation/208","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"And eventually — when I left France, I had lost everything.  I left everything behind.  And then, by memory, I started reconstructing this music.  And it, it is, exists now in three suites.  One is for strings and chamber orchestra, and part of that music I have used in The Beadle of Prague.  Part of this.  One is a…","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=705.0,730.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/34541/annotation/209","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"NEIL LEVIN:  Excuse me.  I have to stop.  One was chamber music?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  It’s, it’s a chamber orchestra.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Okay.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  No soloists; just chamber orchestra.  The other one is for clarinet and chamber orchestra.  And it’s a piece to end all clarinet pieces, that is, it’s a very virtuoso piece, a tremendous piece.  And the third one is for cello and chamber orchestra, with a cello soloist.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=730.0,755.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/34541/annotation/210","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Now, I have a recording of these, unfortunately by a second-rate orchestra.  It’s not, not — but at least enough to hear what the music is, because this is all what I know from my klezmorim existence as, as a Jew, Yiddish music director; combined with Nadia Boulanger technique, and contrapuntal finesse and harmonic freedom, which no Jewish composer ever dared to use in, in this, within these materials.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  This would be a wonderful piece for us to record.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  Bratislava.  That would be…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Yes.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  This…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  With orchestra.  I could maybe even have Giora Feidman or David Krakauer or these are all people…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  That would…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  …who would want to play it.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  …that would be a piece not — I tell you this.  I, I, I don’t want to sound very, very commercial, but this piece has an enormous commercial potential because that is still the basic materials there.  It, it, it is a Fiddler on the Roof, multiplied by a thousand.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eBARRY SEROTA:  You know what it’s like?  It’s like, in terms of music for the Yiddish theater, it’s like what Achron wrote…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  Well, well…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eBARRY SEROTA:  …when Achron wrote for parts.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=755.0,819.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/34541/annotation/211","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:\u003c/strong\u003e …I give you, I give you an example, you know.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAt one point on the stage, you know, they all got drunk.  And nobody knew what to do — you understand?  And when I, when I had the freedom of, of just depicting that violent scene of the, of the klezmorim being drunk, you understand, of course I had to play wrong notes.  Of course, I had to, to have the whole (?)— the whole thing is very funny, you know — very grotesque. And in my opinion, if you ask me, as priority, that would be, I think, I want to be remembered of because it goes back to my father. It goes back to my origins. It goes back to the whole Polish-Russian origin of my existence.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=819.0,858.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/34541/annotation/212","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"And yet, I have, I have seen this with the eyes of somebody who has been long moved away from that.  And that, if you, if you are smart enough to disregard the poor performance of the orchestra — because it was done by the Mount Vernon Chamber Orchestra, who are all unpaid amateurs, and here and there, it’s just not perfection.  But…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  This is no problem.  If you will get me a tape and a score, I’ll, I can judge.  And then, we’ll see — that’s perfect.  We could then schedule a recording…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  …with an orchestra in Germany.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  Yeah.  The solo…","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=858.0,893.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/34541/annotation/213","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"HERMAN BERLINSKI:  The soloist, Steven Honigberg, who plays on a Stradivarius, who is one of the finest cellists, and, and what’s the name of the clarinetist on it?  I cannot, I cannot think of her name, now.  But, you could keep the soloists and engage them to do this over there, because they know the score.  But, that would be a marvelous thing. Now, for Steven Honigberg I have written also a concerto for cello and orchestra, which has never been performed yet —also on Jewish themes.\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  And is it going to be performed?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  Well, we, we are waiting for an opportunity.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eBARRY SEROTA:  What’s the title?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  Concerto for Cello and Orchestra.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=893.0,930.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/34541/annotation/214","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"NEIL LEVIN:  Let’s go back to talking about you a little bit, before…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  …from the very beginning.  I think you cross a lot of lines.  You’re a German Jew; you’re an Eastern European Jew, actually, whether or not people perceive that.  You, in some respects, are a French Jew; and, you’re an American Jew.  That is to say, an American-Jewish composer, German-Jewish composer, French, and so forth.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eIt all began where?  You were born, where were you born?  And where did your parents come from?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=930.0,960.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/34541/annotation/215","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"HERMAN BERLINSKI:  Well, let, let me answer this, you know, since, since I’m a Jew, whether, whether German, Jewish, or Russian.  There was a moment when we had to leave France, and the French had signed over all the people who had served the French army against Germany, by a secret treaty, to be handed over to the Germans.  So, there was a price on my head. And eventually, I managed to get a, a visa de sortie — that means a permission to leave France, which was strictly illegal and was bought, actually.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eBARRY SEROTA:  What year was this?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=960.0,1002.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/34541/annotation/216","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:\u003c/strong\u003e In 1940.  It was after the defeat of the France, and there was only the one Vichy France.  I bought it from one instance.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eBut what I didn’t know at that time, that I have to go through the Securité, which is the  Deuxième Bureau — it’s the French FBI.  They had to reexamine this. And I sat there.  And the man was standing in front, sitting there, and he had the following documents — first, he had my birth certificate, which is German; then, he had my Polish passport, signed by Mr. Brzezinski’s father — because I was a Polish citizen; then, I had documented that my father lived in America and had, had already full citizenship paper; then, he found, he had in front of himself a French, mil, a Carné de Militaire, which was my French military passport, because I served in the French army.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=1002.0,1063.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/34541/annotation/217","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"And then, he wasn’t quite sure whether, at the time I was born, Poland was not even a province of Russia.  Then, he didn’t know where the city of Leipzig, where I was born, was. So he went to a big map, and he said, somewhere with his finger on Siberia,“\u003cINAUDIBLE\u003e le trouver. Leipzig a été occupé par les Allemandes” — Leipzig has been occupied by the Germans.  “Donc, il faut que je vous extradit to, to, to the Allemandes” — I have to hand you over to the Germans.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAnd when I sat there, and my life was in this man’s stamp, I said, you know what?  I am nothing but a goddamn Jew.  The French passport, and the Polish passport, and the German birth certificate, and all the papers which, which was identify me, don’t mean absolutely nothing.  The only thing I’m sure is that I’m Jewish.  And it came so deep that no story, no theory, nothing could impress myself as deep as this fact — that I have been stranded between so many different obligations, loyalties, and so on.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=1063.0,1139.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/34541/annotation/218","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Eventually, he looked once more at my passport, and he said, “On top of it, you don’t tell me the truth.  You are not born in Germany.  You’re born in Lipsk. And he didn’t know that Lipsk is the Polish name for Leipzig.  And I did not help him, at that point.  And when he said, was convinced that Lipsk is a Polish city, and I was Polish, and not of the German origin, he took that piece of paper and put a stamp on it, and I was a free man, and I could go to America. But the, the essence of the Jewish intensity of the experience has never left me.  If I had a waivered as a young man — and, of course, we wanted to be Germans.  We wanted to be, assimilate ourselves into the superior culture of the Germans.  That was a, that was a, a, an illusion which German Jewry had, up to the point of arrogance.  And you know this is well-known, you understand?  And we have been taught better.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=1139.0,1202.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/34541/annotation/219","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"And even if I go back to Germany these days, I speak German like a German.  I have no accent, when I speak German.  And Germans put their hand on my shoulder and say, “You’re one of us.” So I said, “You wait a little bit.  I am an American.  I live in America.  My children and grandchildren are now American-born.  That is a thing of the past, this is finished; now and forever.” But this is in terms of, of loyalties.  I don’t think that I can possibly write a piece of music, no matter what I do and what I will try, which does not have the stamp of my Jewish existence.  It’s, it’s, un, even when I set out to write something symphonic, or chamber music, or a string quartet.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=1202.0,1252.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/34541/annotation/220","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"I didn’t mention my string quartet, because it was per, performed two years ago at the Corcoran Gallery.  And, and I have a beautiful recording of that one, also. Now, now, that string quartet does not have any Jewish themes.  And yet, my Gentile friends tell me that this is a full piece of Jewish music.  You can’t be very Jewish without writing, without using for classic materials.  That is the answer where you say, say…","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=1252.0,1286.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/34541/annotation/221","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"NEIL LEVIN:  You, how did you get to France?  And how did you get into the French army?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  Well, first of all, my father emigrated from, from Poland, from Lodz, where all the better musicians come from, you know…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Yeah.  Arthur Rubinstein.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  It is quite possible that my father was a textile worker, in, in Arthur Rubinstein’s father’s textile factory, because my father was in the textile factory at the age of ten.  They took him from out the, from the little cheder, and they put him in the factory.  They were very poor people, and he never saw the inside of a school. He never — he taught himself, later on, how to read and write.  But he never, ever had any schooling.  Neither did my mother, whom he married when she was about 16 or 17 years old.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=1286.0,1328.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/34541/annotation/222","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"And, the, the people who could afford tickets, went to America in 1905, in the wake of the pogroms.  And the poorer people made it as far as Germany.  They later just stuck there. And Leipzig was a eminent Eastern-European Jewish settlement.  We had, at the time when I left Leipzig, we had 19,000 Jews, of which 12,000 were Polish.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eBARRY SEROTA:  What year did you leave?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  1933.  In 1918, when the Polish Republic was constituted, my father had to choose between becoming stateless, which, at that time, means to accept a green nansen passport — a stateless passport — or to declare himself a Polish citizen.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=1328.0,1381.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/34541/annotation/223","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eBARRY SEROTA:\u003c/strong\u003e You didn’t have the option to be a German citizen?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=1381.0,1445.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/34541/annotation/224","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:\u003c/strong\u003e German citizenship was obtainable under such difficult circumstances, under such — it had to be approved by all these states which constituted the, the Federal Republic, at that time.  And it always got stuck in Bavaria or in some state where they, where they — you had to have a lawyer in every state.  We never attempted it.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=1445.0,1467.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/34541/annotation/225","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eBARRY SEROTA:\u003c/strong\u003e What sort of education did you have in Leipzig?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=1467.0,1516.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/34541/annotation/226","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:\u003c/strong\u003e I went, like we all did, first to, to the, to the public school, for one year or two.  And then, all six children of us went to the Carlebach Realgymnasium. Realgymnasium in Germany means that it is a high school which deals with the living language — French and English, and science, chemistry, and physic; the humanistic gymnasium that was Greek and Latin and philosophy, you understand?  And both led to the possibility of entering the university.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=1516.0,1552.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/34541/annotation/227","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eBARRY SEROTA:\u003c/strong\u003e Was there some sort of Jewish content in the school? Was there Jewish content in the studies? In the course of studies?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=1552.0,1592.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/34541/annotation/228","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:\u003c/strong\u003e Oh, yes. I mean, first of all, we had to come every day, half an hour early for ma'ariv for..for…shacharit. In the morning, there was a minyan. We had to stay one hour behind for religion and we had to come twice a week in the afternoon also. We started chumash and everything else. But we did not go to school on Shabbat. The Germans go to school on Saturdays. We did not have to go, but we had to make up. And before you graduated, the examination was, was given by a state commissioner who came from the capital, which was Dresden, at that time.  It still is.  And he had a great time examining Jewish students, because he was a mathematician, and in that — he said he looks forward, every year, to examining Jewish students in mathematics.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=1592.0,1647.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/34541/annotation/229","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"From there, I went, at the age of 16, straight into the conservatory.  And music played a tremendous role in our house. I have something which would be very interesting.  When I came here to the United States, I had an, an old uncle in Patterson, New Jersey.  The whole Berlinski clan settled, in the, in the end of the 19th century, in Patterson, New Jersey, because Patterson, New Jersey was also a textile town.  And they came from Lodz textile to Patterson. And the old uncle said, “Herman, I have left for you a document which you, which I’ve waited for you all these years to give you personally.” And I said, “What is it, uncle?”","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=1647.0,1689.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/34541/annotation/230","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"And he said, “It’s a letter from your mother, which she has written to me in 1916.”  And he showed me an old — I still have that letter — and he showed me a letter.  And it says, “Dear Abe, Boris — that’s my father — [sounds like gedanken Gott mach da gotte parnossa].  I have six children.  They are very smart — they speak German.  And we just bought a piano.  And I know this — an old beat-up Bechstein piano.  And all six children had piano lessons. And he said, “I wanted you to have this letter of your mother”, who died very — she died when she was 39 years old — in, from cancer, you know.  She did not — thank God, not live, live to see the horror of the Holocaust.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=1689.0,1736.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/34541/annotation/231","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"And I took this letter in my hand and I said, “Uncle, Mother never knew how to read and write.  She could not have written you a letter in 1916 or in 1930, or any time.  She didn’t know how to read and write.” And he said, “Who wrote that letter?” I said, “I know who wrote that letter.  The maid.” Because nobody in the whole world writes Gothic but somebody, but somebody who’s born in Germany and brought, brought up in a German public school. And he was very disappointed.  He had thought Mother had written this letter.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=1736.0,1770.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/34541/annotation/232","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eNEIL LEVIN:\u003c/strong\u003e And you mentioned that Wilkomirsky…","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=1770.0,1797.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/34541/annotation/233","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"HERMAN BERLINSKI:  Yeah.  I know Wilkomirsky very well.  In, in, indeed, the widow, Harry Wilkomirsky, went to school with me, in the same class.  That’s one of his sons, yeah. And the older brother — he died a few years ago.  And the widow of my brother married Harry Wilkomirsky.  My brother passed away also a long time ago.  And she married Harry Wilkomirsky.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  We did a session like this with Abraham Wilkomirsky.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  In San Francisco.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  A few years ago.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=1797.0,1828.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/34541/annotation/234","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"HERMAN BERLINSKI:  Yeah.  I have tried in vain, because somebody in Leipzig wants to write the history of Jews in Leipzig, a musical history.  We have tried in vain to get some documentation about Wilkomirsky, or a recording.  I have not been successful.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Well, now, I can do it.  I know where it all is.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  I, I have not been successful.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  No, no.  I know exactly where it is.  It’s…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  Oh, yeah?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  He died, didn’t he?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eBARRY SEROTA:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Wilkomirsky died afterwards.  But all the archives are in San Francisco.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  They’re…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  I mean, the, the oldest daughter is still alive.  The, the — Genya, Genya.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  She lives in France, half the time.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  In San Francisco, yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  But she also lives in Paris a lot.  Genya?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  Genya, yeah.  I don’t know whether she lives in Paris.  She…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  I think so.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  Yeah?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  I was told she doesn’t care much about things.  But the thing is, who wants to do the, who wants to write that…","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=1828.0,1870.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/34541/annotation/235","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"HERMAN BERLINSKI:  He’s a Dr. [sounds like Schenkat], who collects everything he can get about Jewish musicians of Leipzig.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  In Leipzig?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  Yeah, yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  You know, the Leipzig’s — I’m sure, the current so-called Leipzig Synagogalchor?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=1870.0,1882.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/34541/annotation/236","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"HERMAN BERLINSKI:  I have had my bitterest argument about this.  I don’t know whether this is a subject for…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Yes, it is.  Because I also have had…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  I’ll tell you.  I, I know them… I know them very well.  Mr. Klotz.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Hmmm-hmmm.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  And…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Helmut Klotz.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=1882.0,1895.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/34541/annotation/237","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"HERMAN BERLINSKI:  Helmut Klotz. I have told them, “As long as you lived under a communistic rule, you know very well that the communists are using this choir as a tool to make propaganda, to say, ‘Look.  We’re Jews.’” It was some kind of, of a Jewish folkloristic society, and not a single Jew was there.  They think they sing Yiddish.  They think they sing Yiddish.  And they sound accordingly.  It’s not a bad choir. I said, “You can be forgiven, and maybe even rewarded, for having kept alive at least a spark of Jewishness within this hostile culture.  But now, yet you are free, that you can express yourself, this choir has only a reason to exist if it is presided over by a Jew.  What you have done now is Hitler’s ultimate goal.  Jewish culture without Jews.”\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  That’s exactly my sentiment.  It reminds me of, it’s a museum.  It’s the museum to the extinct Jewish people.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=1895.0,1957.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/34541/annotation/238","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"HERMAN BERLINSKI:  And, and, and the, the Leipzig people are running around with a certain amount of incredible stupid pride.  Pride themselves — “We’ve got this.  He kept this alive.” I said, “Look.  I volunteer.  Constitute an honorary committee.  You can get Sam Adler, you could get Herman Berlinski, you get Herbert Fromm” — when he was still alive.  “And, and let this committee advise you as to what to do.  Get some Israelis in it.  Then, you could function.  Until such time when there is a choir — I mean, when a Jewish member can join that choir” — because the, the congregation is growing, from, from the influx of Russian Jews.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  It’s not so much even the, that, as it, as it’s a vehicle, it’s nothing but a vehicle for Klotz to sing.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  Of course.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=1957.0,2003.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/34541/annotation/239","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"NEIL LEVIN:  I wouldn’t care so much — that the choir is not Jewish doesn’t bother me.  Because, first of all, there aren’t really these — it’s a very, chorally, it’s not, it’s pretty good, actually, I think the sounds.  But of course, they’re singing, not Yiddish, as you say.  They’re singing that ridiculous Galitzianer — no, but it’s true.  It’s a Galitzianer, you can’t understand one word of the Yiddish. And but the worst part is, when they have, if they do Dunayevsky, or Lewandovski, who is the soloist?  Helmut Klotz.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  And we offered them an opportunity to come to the United States last year, for concerts, on the condition that they will, that the soloist will be an important American hazzan.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  Yeah?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  And you know what Klotz wrote back, a letter?  Very insulting.  He wrote back, he said, “No.  We know that American, that cantors, that cantors are not musicians.” So, I don’t, it’s interesting, that you feel the same way.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  Well…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  There’s something very eerie about the whole thing.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=2003.0,2056.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/34541/annotation/240","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"HERMAN BERLINSKI:  When they, they came eventually, you know.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  They came?  And he sang with them?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  And the cultural attaché desperately tried to get me to support them, and recommend them. And I said, “I cannot do this in good conscience.  If, if you will form an honorary committee — you don’t have to pay anybody.  We don’t want your money.  If there is such a thing as a, a, a synagogue choir, and at least the leadership and the choice of the program director is Jewish, then,” I said, “a linkage is created and eventually, sooner or later, Jewish singers will take over.”","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=2056.0,2092.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/34541/annotation/241","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Because this is the last privilege we have — to take care of our own culture.  That’s the survival, it is.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  I had some dealings with the embassy.  Do you know Gudrun?  I forget her name?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  Gudrun, the…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Gudrun…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  Licherhogast?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  She’s, she’s no more there, though.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  She’s gone?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  She’s gone, now.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  That’s a pity.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Yeah.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=2092.0,2110.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/34541/annotation/242","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"HERMAN BERLINSKI:  She’s gone.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  So tell me, now…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  But the, the new one is a very, very nice person.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  She went back to Germany?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  She went back to Bonn, yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Yeah.  Anyhow, you were in the French army for how long?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=2110.0,2126.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/34541/annotation/243","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"HERMAN BERLINSKI:  Well, let me, let me connect this with my French passport, of many \u003cINAUDIBLE\u003e. And the first thing is, I left Germany in the direction of the East.  I went to Poland. First of all, we had a tremendous amount of relatives; uncles and aunts and nephews and nieces — at least 50, 60 people in Lodz. And since I had a Polish passport, I went to Lodz, because I wanted to see that.  I had never seen it, by the way.  My parents did send all the other children to Lodz from time to time, when it was possible.  But I hadn’t been there. And I played there a concert at the Sala Conservatory in Breslau, and I played a concert at the, at the Polish State Radio.  And became acquainted with my cousins. And it was very strange — and this is interesting — I could not speak any language with them but Yiddish.  They, they did not speak German, and I didn’t speak Polish, so Yiddish became the, the link there.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  You played a concert on the piano?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  Yeah.  As, as a pianist.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Because you weren’t an organist until you came to America.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=2126.0,2185.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/34541/annotation/244","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"HERMAN BERLINSKI:  No, no.  The organ, the organ part comes in \u003cINAUDIBLE\u003e also been here.  Only in, in New York.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  So you were primarily a pianist?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  A pianist.  I was trained as a pianist.  And I studied composition and theory. In Poland, I could only stay three months, because after three months, you lose your status of Poland living abroad, and you become Pole.  And, and at the age of 23, it meant the army.  And, at that time, I wasn’t interested in to serve the Polish army. Poland was rife with anti-Semitism.  And Jews were mistreated economically, physically, and in any other ways, very — the, the Poles did not have to learn any lessons from Hitler, at that point. And I left Poland, and through a very complicated way — through the Baltic, North Sea, via Holland, by ship, went to Holland, Belgium, and then, landed in Paris.  And in Paris, my, my present wife, who was then my, my friend, she managed to come from Leipzig directly.  We met first in Danzig, and from Danzig, we went to Paris. We all became students of the famous École Normale de Musique.  This, this is an important thing.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=2185.0,2260.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/34541/annotation/245","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"The, the Paris Conservatory is very seldom accessible to students who come from abroad, because the maximum age you’ll, you, you can have before becoming, you become a student, is 18 years.  If you’re past 18 years, you cannot be a student at the Conservatoire Nationale. We were all older than 18 years old.  Consequently — and the French did this because the Conservatoire, you don’t have to pay anything, and they didn’t want to have their institution available to foreign students who don’t pay.  So, they created an extra school, which is basically a branch of the Conservatoire, and it was called the École Normale, which in, in French, is not normal, but superior school.  There, you had to pay.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAnd the, the two teachers who were there — the outstanding personalities was Alfred Cortot, for piano, and Nadia Boulanger, for composition. And we were four people, who came there.  My wife and I, Ilya Wojikoff, and Ilya — no — Elyahom Wojikoff, and Ilya Holadenko.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eBARRY SEROTA:  Wojikoff is the father of the cellist.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  That’s Michael’s father.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eBARRY SEROTA:  Yeah, right.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  Michael’s father.  He studied with me in Leipzig.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Did you study piano with Cortot at all?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=2260.0,2336.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/34541/annotation/246","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"HERMAN BERLINSKI:  In, in, in Paris.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Yeah?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  You knew Cortot? \u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  Of course I knew Cortot.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  And let me ask you, just this — I don’t want to dwell on this, but maybe you could clear something up.  There has been a — I don’t know — a current among, in the pianophiles and so forth, of assumption, that something, something about Cortot…","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=2336.0,2357.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/34541/annotation/247","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"HERMAN BERLINSKI:  Well, I can tell you — wait a second.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  You know what I’m going to say.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003e\tHERMAN BERLINSKI:  Cortot, Cortot, who, whom I heard playing in recital in the modern day city of Warsaw, on the day when the Germans bombed Warsaw, became an arch-collaborator with the Nazis.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  So it’s true.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=2357.0,2373.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/34541/annotation/248","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:\u003c/strong\u003e This is confirmed.  He was condemned to five years of national indignity. And when I was in Marseilles as a French soldier, stranded and under the danger of my life, I wrote a letter to Cortot — and Cortot was then the Minister of Cultural Affairs at the government of Vichy — and I wrote a letter of Cortot and I said, “I am your student.  I worked with you.  I don’t want anything from you but to get out of here.  A letter of recommendation would open up this.” And Cortot wrote me — and that letter I still have — that he remembered me very well, and the studies I did with him.  Unfortunately, that’s not his department.  And he can’t do a damn thing about it.  That’s a verdict of death.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=2373.0,2417.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/34541/annotation/249","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"The story goes — now that one, when Cortot came back, after five years, after he had been condemned, and he wanted to play a concerto with the Orchestra Paris, the new Orchestra of Paris…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  When?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  That must have been in the, in the, in the…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eBARRY SEROTA:  Fifties?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=2417.0,2438.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/34541/annotation/250","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"HERMAN BERLINSKI:  …early ‘50s.  They stood all up when he came out, and left, and did not play with him.  He died in exile, alone, and, and in….But Cortot was an arch-collaborator.  That is a, a hundred percent.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  All of the collections that have come out, and the books and everything about Cortot as one of the great, this is…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  It’s a terrible, a terrible thing.  When, when it, and the funny thing is, when I was a student in Leipzig, Cortot never did come to Leipzig.  The Leipzig was too small for him.  He came to Berlin, you understand, to play. But when the, under the Nazis, he played in every German village.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  What about [sounds like Kasatsu]?  There were also some questions about [sounds like Kasatsu].","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=2438.0,2480.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/34541/annotation/251","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"HERMAN BERLINSKI:  About [sounds like Kasatsu], I do not know.  I, I really do not know.  But I know that, that Thibaud never collaborated.  And, and of course, the great cellist, Pablo Casals, was an ardent anti-fascist, and it was out of the question. I spoke to Madame Casals, as a, the, the present — I can’t think of her name right now.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Istomin.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  Yeah, Istomin.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Yeah.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=2480.0,2504.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/34541/annotation/252","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:\u003c/strong\u003e Istomin.  I said, “Give me an explanation.  Your husband must know something about Cortot.” — because the famous trio was Cortot, Casals and Thibaud — “And did your husband ever speak to you about his feelings about Cortot?” She said he did, and he was, he could not talk much about it.  But he said, human vanity.  The, the Germans flattered him to such a point that he, that he gave in.  And…","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=2504.0,2535.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/34541/annotation/253","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"NEIL LEVIN:  I mean, look — it extends — Maurice Chevalier, I mean, you know…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  There is, that really was one of few, of many.  One of many.  But that was a tragedy.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  So how long were you in the — did you actually wear a uniform?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=2535.0,2553.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/34541/annotation/254","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"HERMAN BERLINSKI:  In, in Paris, in Paris, two things happened.  First of all, I conducted a German choir, I conducted a Hungarian choir, I played Yiddish theater.  And they had no legal right to exist.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  What kind of Yiddish theater did they have there?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=2553.0,2568.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/34541/annotation/255","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"HERMAN BERLINSKI:  That Yiddish theater was one of the, I don’t know whether the names mean anything to you — David Licht.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eBARRY SEROTA:  He was in America, later.  David Licht.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  Yeah.  He was in, in, in South America.  He’s, he is dead now.  And Jacob Rothbaum were the, were the directors.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAnd we played almost every play by Sholem Aleichem, and, and some of the stories which were made into plays, you know; and the classics, for which I had to write music, you know. We played Peretz.  And Peretz left a tremendous impression on me.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  When you say Yiddish theater, I mean, this is a, not, this is legitimate plays?  But you had to write the music for it.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  Well, incidental music.  And, and, even a dramatic Jewish work…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  But it wasn’t musical theater, like operettas…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  No, no, no, no Second Avenue.  Nothing like this.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Or Goldfaden.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  No, no, no.  Not…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  They didn’t do Goldfaden.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  No, no.  Nothing of that sort.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  No Goldfaden.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=2568.0,2624.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/34541/annotation/256","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"HERMAN BERLINSKI:  However, however, it’s in the nature of Jewish drama that, whether it’s Thomashefsky or anybody else, in the nature of our, our own dramatic experience, that they cannot conceive even of the — even if it were a Shakespeare, they would manage somehow to throw in a few songs, in between, you know.  It’s, it just, they just couldn’t conceive any other way. But it, it was not only a, an artistic experience — it was a human experience, because these were all Polish, Russian, Ukrainians — people who, who were stranded in France. And there were tailors, and there were all kind of professions which, which in France were well-paid.  Pocket, many made leather pockets, lady pockets, you know — pocketbooks.  And, at night, they went to rehearse.  At night, they played.  And some of them were absolutely fantastic actors.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eBARRY SEROTA:  How big an ensemble — an instrumental ensemble — did you have?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=2624.0,2682.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/34541/annotation/257","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"HERMAN BERLINSKI:  Oh, it was sometimes, I had one ensemble.  My orchestra consisted of myself and a piano.  And at one point, I had a string quartet that was already there.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  That was the biggest.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  That was the biggest one.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Where is all the music from there?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  Hmmm?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Where is all the music?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  I said this music exists in the three suites.  \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Oh, incorporated in the three suites.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  That is, this is the three suites.  Every melody I remember there.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Well, then, I think we should definitely…","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=2682.0,2706.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/34541/annotation/258","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"HERMAN BERLINSKI:  You see, and I’m, I’m, I’m fond of it like I’m fond of my mother and my father.  It’s, it’s, it’s a very deep thing, you understand.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Well, don’t you think that we should definitely…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  This is why I said, knowing — you know we went with The Beadle of Prague in Bratislava, and we had a tremendous success in there.  And in Prague.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  In Bratislava?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  In Bratislava and Prague, we did it.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Where did you do it in Bratislava?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  At the, at the, radio, radio station.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  You know what?  We recorded, for an entire…","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=2706.0,2731.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/34541/annotation/259","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"HERMAN BERLINSKI:  You told me that. Yeah.  They wanted, they wanted to make a recording of it, and I was afraid of Lustig.  And, but we did the original version there, with the text.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  But the new version is much nicer.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  When did you leave France?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=2731.0,2747.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/34541/annotation/260","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:\u003c/strong\u003e In 1934 or ‘5, finally, we decided to become French citizens.  And with the application of French citizenship, there is a declaration you sign that you will, if you become a French citizen, you will serve the French country in time of war. In other words, in 1937, I had already a military engagement with the French government.  I never got my citizenship, but on September 1st, or actually, in August, August 29, 194.., 1939, I had just, very plain and simple, an order to report to Kazin in such-and-such a place, for induction to military services.  There was declaration of war.  And, at that time, I went into the French army.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=2747.0,2792.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/34541/annotation/261","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"And I went there voluntarily.  Because this was one thing which, even today, I feel I have survived, so I can say it.  Fortunately, I was one of the very few Jews who, in this tragedy, who was permitted to have a machine gun in my hand, and shoot at them. But I tell you this — every German I meet today, I said, and, and that’s why I was on the other side.  The satisfaction that I could defend myself, the satisfaction that I could hit them back with what, with what they hit us, was immense.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=2792.0,2824.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/34541/annotation/262","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:\u003c/strong\u003e And it, it, it actually evaporated my own physical fear of death.  I said, if I die fighting the Germans, it is a million times better.  And, at that time, I did not know about the Holocaust.  We knew about the Holocaust much later. But at that time, it was a question.  And the tremendous tragedy that communism, at that time, was a tremendous force.  You had the Foreign Populaire.  And the communists came out and said, “This is an imperialist war.  We don’t have no part of it.” — because Stalin had a pact with Hitler. And in the Piat, there were a lot of communists there; a lot of people.  It split the whole French wide open.  Those who said this is a war against not Germany, but against fascism — this is a continuation of the war which started in Spain, where Hitler and Mussolini were, were devastating Spain, and this war must be fought — and the communists, who were standing on the right side, and were waiting for something.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=2824.0,2883.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/34541/annotation/263","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:\u003c/strong\u003e So I went to — however, not being a French citizen, it became automatically the Foreign Legion.  Now, the, the, the Germans among us were sent to Africa.  But I was a Polish citizen, and I was on the front-line duty. And we went into the, we were, I was trained, a heavy machine gunner.  And we went into action at the Belgian border when the Germans broke through.  And the only battle I have ever known was retreating.  In other words, we, we had to retreat.  The Germans pushed us back. From my regiment of 2,500, a little bit less than 250 people survived.  Now, if I said “survived,” it means, it doesn’t mean — the others were not dead.  They were lost.  And many people surrendered.  Many people disappeared, and many people died.  We never know what happened to them.  But, I know that when we were reassembled after the Armistice was signed and they reassembled the regiment, there were 250 left of us.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=2883.0,2948.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/34541/annotation/264","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:\u003c/strong\u003e I got the highest French decoration, the Medaille Militaire, and, and Combat Volontaire, and I carry them with great, great, great pride; great deal of pride that that I have accomplished in my life. Whether my music will be immortal, I don’t know.  But for my children and grandchildren, that I have been able to fight against Hitler means a great deal in my life.  Tremendously. And at that time, the demobilization came, and it meant that the French Vichy government would hand over those who volunteered to fight for France into the hands of the Germans, where they didn’t live for 24 hours. And for me, my Polish citizenship, citizenship, couldn’t help me for the very simple reason, I have on my left arm four vaccination marks.  And of all the countries of the world, the Germans vaccinate differently than anybody else.  They stand there like clack-clack, like a regiment engraved in my arm. I can’t get it out, They would have to cut off my arm to get rid of them. So, I could not fool the Germans into thinking I am Polish.  They could see that I have been born in Germany.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=2948.0,3016.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/34541/annotation/265","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"HERMAN BERLINSKI:  But we finally managed to get out with the help of family we had in the United States, and with the help of an institution which you may not never heard of — Varian Fry.  The name means anything to you?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  What’s the name?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  Varian Fry.  F-R-Y. At that time, Roosevelt was up for reelection.  And the American Union, Sidney Herman, had promised him support.  And Roosevelt was, strangely enough, completely indifferent to the fate of the Jewish intelligentsia that was stranded in Europe.  Roosevelt didn’t bother with that. But Sidney Herman told him, if you want support of the Jewish population of this country, then do something for the Jewish intellectuals who are stranded in Europe and in danger of being, of falling into the hands of the Germans. Roosevelt said no.  But Eleanor Roosevelt found a man, a, a Quaker from Philadelphia, whose name was Varian Fry, F-R-Y.  And sent him as a secret agent to Marseilles.  And there, in the catacombs of Marseilles, by, protected by no diplomatic immunity, exactly like one conducted later, in Budapest, advised us what to do, how to go, and what means could be done to get out of France.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=3016.0,3110.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/34541/annotation/266","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:\u003c/strong\u003e In my case, it was easy, because my brother and my sister had been already here.  Also, that we have, in spite of the fact that my father comes from very poor things, eventually, wound up to be a very rich man.  We had all the money to bribe French — the French patriots could be had for any paper you needed, if the price was right.  So that saved our life. And we, my wife and I — by the way, my wife and I married in Paris — and her mother, we came together to the United States.  And very strangely, even though, even though we had to bribe our ways, we had to have legitimate papers.  The French wanted to cover their back, if the Germans ever would control, why did this, and why did this one get out? They had to invent that I was not Polish, but a Russian.  Russia, if you’ll remember, was neutral.  Russia was not yet at war.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=3110.0,3178.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/34541/annotation/267","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"HERMAN BERLINSKI: So we traveled on a document which designated me as a Russian nation, a national which the French did that. And we came there, through Spain, to the United States in July, 1941.  Two weeks later, Russia was at war.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Now, let’s move — when you came, you became an organist here in the United — which is a very important…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  Well, this…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  …thing to talk about, because that’s something you had not expected.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=3178.0,3213.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/34541/annotation/268","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"HERMAN BERLINSKI:  Well, yes and no.  The, it was my organ anteceded….  You could not grow up in Leipzig without going, at least once a month, to the Motet at that Church of St. Thomas in Leipzig.  And there, the great organist, Gunter Harmano, was the successor, in the long line of Bach.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Now, I mean, just so we know, the Church of St. Thomas, St. Thomas…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  It’s a…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  …had a very famous cantor, at one time.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  Yeah, yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  What was his name?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  Yeah.  It was Johann Sebastian Bach.  Bach, Bach was not the organist.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  No.  The cantor.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  He was their cantor.  And cantor, in German, means “music director,” understand? But, the then-cantor Streiber, heard me playing Bach at a concert.  And he came to me and he said, “Berlinski, you’re wasting your talent at the piano.  You should play the organ.  I teach you.”  And I ask him, “Well, how could I learn how to play the organ?” This is a church institute.  And Leipzig was, the organ was taught, not at the conservatory, but at the church institute. And he said, “Why don’t you convert?” I said, “There may be reasons to convert, but organ playing is not one of those.” Well, I never got a lesson from him.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=3213.0,3281.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/34541/annotation/269","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"HERMAN BERLINSKI: It’s in, it’s funny, because in three weeks, I’m going to play at that organ in Leipzig my Jewish work, the Prelude of Rosh Hashanah and Prelude of Shavuot, on that organ, which I could not study at that time.  And I come back as a Jew. Anyhow, I came, we came to America.  My first contact was Cantor Rudinow of Temple Emanu-El.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  That’s Moshe Rudinow?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  Moshe Rudinow.  And the Jewish Music…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  How did you meet him?  How did you get to know him?  I mean, how…","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=3281.0,3308.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/34541/annotation/270","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"HERMAN BERLINSKI:  I had been, I had not been told that there are a number, that there is such a thing as Jewish Music Forum.  And that, coming from the PIAT, coming already with Jewish antecedent, as a composer of Jewish music, I had saved two compositions.  One is a sonata for flute and piano, on Jewish themes; and one are some pencil sketches from the music for the PIAT, you understand? And I was really anxious to show them to somebody.  I was anxious to make a contact with a composer.  And I met, within a few, short times, Lazar Weiner.  I met Moshe Rudinow, and Joseph Freudenthaler who actually came from Leipzig, from the Transcontinental, you understand?  And they introduced me to the Jewish Music Forum and Binder. Binder hired me for his music school, so that I could have, feed my family.  In the meantime, my wife was pregnant, and we expected the arrival of a child.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eBARRY SEROTA:  That was at the 92nd Street Y?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  At the 92nd street Y.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=3308.0,3370.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/34541/annotation/271","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"BARRY SEROTA:  What type of music program did they have there?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  At that time, it was a regular classical music school. I taught them Bach, Beethoven…nothing Jewish. It was a regular music school. And it is at that Jewish Music Forum that they…that my first composition, the full sonata was presented the same day when Leonard Bernstein presented his Jeremiah symphony on the piano. We both were the artists at that time.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=3370.0,3397.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/34541/annotation/272","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"HERMAN BERLINSKI:  By the way, this sonata has been recorded by the first flutist at the Israeli Philharmonic, just a few months ago.  It’s not yet released on, on compact disc.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  This is something you composed in Europe?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  Yeah.  That is, that, that was the luggage I still had from Paris.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  And this was at a concert of the Jewish Music Forum?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  At a concert of the Jewish Music Forum.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Forum, yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  And I…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Bernstein was on the same program?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  Hmmm?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=3397.0,3417.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/34541/annotation/273","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"NEIL LEVIN:  Bernstein’s Jeremiah was also on the Forum program?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  Bern, Bernstein’s Jeremiah was performed at the New York Philharmonic…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Oh.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  …but he gave a preview on the piano for the Jewish Music Forum.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  That’s what I’m asking.  He did a preview on the piano at the Forum?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  Yeah, that’s right.  That, that’s right.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Did you know that?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eBARRY SEROTA:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  This is how I got to meet Bernstein, also.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eBARRY SEROTA:  With the singer.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=3417.0,3434.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/34541/annotation/274","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"HERMAN BERLINSKI:  You know, it was thanks to Bernstein that Avodat Shabbat came about, with, with Barkin.  You know that Bernstein…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  How did it happen?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  Bern, Bernstein…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Avodat Shabbat is your Friday night service.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  Yeah. Well, in any case, after one of these con, concerts, concerts, Yasser came over to me.  And he said, “Look.  I’m going to be soon 65, or, and to be retired.  You’re a wonderful pianist, you’re a very interesting composer.  There’s nobody who could take my job.  Would you be interested in the organ?” And I had lived miserably from year to year, teaching piano.  I had at one point 30 students, at one point 15 students.  But the, the \u003cINAUDIBLE\u003e situation. And the, the organ came to me like, like, like something which from way back already was in the back of my mind.  It, it didn’t come from nowhere.  It came from somewhere.  And this must have been somewhere in 1951.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=3434.0,3494.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/34541/annotation/275","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:\u003c/strong\u003e And Yasser taught me the organ.  We rented a studio from Claire Kochee on 72nd Street.  And then, I got the permission to practice by a Herbert Siegel of B’nai Jeshurun.  And I may have had, had, maybe, five or eight organ lessons. And while I was at Yasser’s place, it was a, in Yasser’s house — not during organ lessons — he had a telephone conversation, in Russian.  But, I heard my name — “Berlinski, Berlinski, Berlinski.”  And he turned to me and he said, “You know what?  Saminsky wants to see you.” And Saminsky at that time had just celebrated his 70th birthday.  And I was, and Lazar Weiner and Robert Siegel and I were co-presidents of the Jewish Music Forum, at that time.  And I had to give him his birthday greetings, and that flattered him very much.  And Saminsky invited me to come. And he said, “I need an or, I need an assistant organist.” And then told me about a Mr. March, who was his organist, and he said he was very dissatisfied with him and would I be his assistant organist?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=3494.0,3567.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/34541/annotation/276","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:\u003c/strong\u003e And I said, “Dr. Saminsky, I don’t know how to play the organ.  I just be, I’m just beginning.” He said, “You’ll learn.  This is America.  You’ll learn.”\tAnd oh, this is funny.  I had to make an audition.  I couldn’t play a single piece of the organ from beginning to end; certainly not Bach.  And the ba’alei batim from Temple Emanu-El were supposed to listen to me. And he led me in front of the huge four-manual, with a Cassavant organ of Temple Emanu-El and he says, “You’ve got 15 minutes to familiarize yourself.” I’d never played an organ of that size.  We, we started on a two-manual.  And I knew one thing, that if I could move my feet on that pedalboard, they’ll think I can play the organ.  And I laid out of the pedalboard, a basso ostinato to be repeated.  Practice is good. Now, when it came to improvisation, I don’t hold second to anybody in the world.  I can improvise anything, at any time and any place.  And I had this basso ostinato, and started improvising.  I used all the pistons of Robert Baker — I just pushed the button.  Whatever came out, came out, you know — I didn’t do. And yet, Saminsky said, “Berlinski, you’re a magnificent organist.” And the ba’alei batim said, “You got the job.” This is how I got into Temple Emanu-El.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=3567.0,3656.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/34541/annotation/277","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"And then, Baker came over to me, who was the senior organist, and he said, “Berlinski, I think you don’t know from beans.  You haven’t gotten the foggiest idea what an organ really is.  But I said that a man of your guts, I’ll teach you.” And from that day, Baker and I, he was my senior organist; an incredible, clever organist with subtleties and ways of handling the organ for a Jewish service second to none — absolutely second to none. He taught me everything there is to play a Jewish service; the sensibility — and he’s not a Jew, you know this — the sensibility, the efficiency.  You, you say you can make a, a cantor sound flat, you can make him sound, a cantor sound sharp.  You have to know what kind of a voice you’re accompanying, with what stops that cantor is being flattered, and with what stops you could absolute bury him.  There were a million and one details.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=3656.0,3713.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/34541/annotation/278","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"HERMAN BERLINSKI:  I entered the service of Temple Emanu-El in 1954.  I played my first recital in 1955.  First public recital on the organ for which I had composed every piece of music.  And those I didn’t compose, I arranged. And at the same time, Yasser told me they’re having a doctoral program at the Jewish Theological Seminary, and you’re a candidate for it.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eBARRY SEROTA:  Let me ask you a question, before we get to the Seminary.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eBARRY SEROTA:  What kind of person was Saminsky?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=3713.0,3746.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/34541/annotation/279","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"HERMAN BERLINSKI:  You know, I owe everything in my music career to Saminsky.  To say that he was an exceedingly difficult person — he was a man enormously convinced that, besides Schoenberg and Shostakovich, there is only Saminsky — and Stravinsky — Saminsky.  He ranked himself into a category of importance, which neither his success, or the absence of his success, nor anything else would bear out.  And, based upon this discrepancy between what he was in public life and between what he imagined he ought to be, there was a bitterness and a hostility which made him the deadly enemy of any, anybody. I came in as his underling.  I came in as his meshot.  And I, I cleaned, virtually, the place he was, you know.  I had to bring his library in order. His library was in unbelievably bad shape.  From what I have seen, you know, it’s just as bad now as it was before, but I brought order in it.  If there’s anything German in me, it’s how to run a library efficiently; how to label pieces; how to paste them together; how to repair books.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eBARRY SEROTA:  You’re talking about the repertoire that they used in the temple?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=3746.0,3828.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/34541/annotation/280","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:\u003c/strong\u003e Yes.  And — at that point. So, the second thing I, I really think is, Saminsky had a feeling that I would be his successor.  He did not say so in any writing, nor did he proclaim it, but he treated me that way.  He died too early to, to make a pronouncement.  And when he died, eventually, the question was wide open — who is going to be his successor?  It is not Saminsky who had recommended me.  And Saminsky left nobody behind. His standing in the musical world was very critical.  He was an exceedingly difficult person.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=3828.0,3869.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/34541/annotation/281","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"HERMAN BERLINSKI:  And he had a very — his first wife died.  I had never known his first wife.  And his second wife was an English, or an Anglo-Saxon, woman, with whom he lived in a very miserable marriage. But he personally couldn’t do enough for me.  He loved me, he loved my work. He loved my son.  And whatever I have — not only this — I went through Temple Emanu-El from one crisis to another.  I was rambunctious. I was difficult.  I sat at that musical meeting, making suggestions which they absolutely laughed to death.  And Saminsky defended me with every ounce of his strength — with every ounce. And the, the, the rabbis there, the rabbonim there were a unit.  Between Saminsky and Berlinski, they had to deal with two Russian Jews, and they just were tolerated.  They considered me a Russian Jew, you know, because of the…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Saminsky’s position was what?  Music director?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  Yeah, music director.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Music director.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=3869.0,3929.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/34541/annotation/282","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"HERMAN BERLINSKI:  And he had, he was fortunate that Saul Dribben was then the president of the congregation.  He had a protecting hand over him, and nobody could touch him.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  And who was the, the cantor was Moshe Rudinow, to begin with?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  Moshe, Moshe Rudinow.  And then, he had to retire, and then became Cantor Wolfson.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Arthur Wolfson.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  Arthur Wolfson.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  How was Wolfson to work with?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=3929.0,3946.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/34541/annotation/283","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:\u003c/strong\u003e Wolfson was — if ever a man had dignity, majesty, beauty of voice, Wolfson had it.  He was, he was the hazzan, hazzan par excellence for a Reform service. Because he had none of the histrionics, he had none of the improvisatory skills.  Wolfson would sing straight.  If he comes, if you tell him to come in on the fourth beat, he’s there on the fourth beat, you understand?  And however, he managed to, to convey in his artistic and in his presentation, a deep strain of, of, of the best of Jewish music of Western Ashkenazic tradition.  Not Eastern — Western. It so fell — and I, I, I mourn this still, today — that Wolfson and I became competitors for Saminsky’s succession.  I had claimed Saminsky was the composer, the choir conductor.  And I had claimed I’m a composer and a choir conductor.  On top of it, I’m, I’m even an organist.  And at that time, I was no slouch as an organist.  And, and I could hold my own with anybody.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=3946.0,4017.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/34541/annotation/284","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:\u003c/strong\u003e And Wolfson said, “I am here cantor since ten years before you came.  And the seniority, by seniority, and in tradition, all synagogues have been run by cantors, and this is, this is one which better go back to that tradition.” He had a perfectly legitimate point.  I had a perfectly legitimate point.  Excepting that these points were running that way.  And that created a great deal of animosity which, which I regret.  I have never lost my respect for the man as an artist.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=4017.0,4045.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/34541/annotation/285","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"HERMAN BERLINSKI:  Tragically, that when Saminsky died, and Wolfson took over after a long interval of nothing, that which Saminsky presented, in terms of enterprise, of originality — a three-choir festival, interfaith movement — sheer creativity, innovation, that all was, that, that all we buried with Saminsky.  That all ended.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Saminsky didn’t have any children, did he?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eBARRY SEROTA:  No.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  No, he had no children.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Do you know anything about Saminsky’s — I mean, he wrote some big symphonies, and some operas, and so forth.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  Yes.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  He didn’t get them performed, did he?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=4045.0,4082.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/34541/annotation/286","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"HERMAN BERLINSKI:  I’ll, I’ll tell you — I have to be very, very honest.  He had one symphony in which Jesus plays a great deal of things, and he wanted to have a symbiosis between Judaism and Christianity in opera.  And I know only from the Ariel, the ballet opera which he had, which we used excerpts for, for the High Holidays, which are very…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eBARRY SEROTA:  It was done in Chicago, once.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Which?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eBARRY SEROTA:  Ariel.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Oh, Ariel, yeah.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=4082.0,4106.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/34541/annotation/287","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"HERMAN BERLINSKI:  Yeah.  And, and I think that — what was the first name of Stein?  He had a music director, Stein, in Chicago, with him, who invited him.  I cannot think of his…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eBARRY SEROTA:  It wasn’t Leon Stein, was it?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  Leon Stein.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Was it Leon Stein?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  It must have been.  I, I think he was instrumental, I think.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eBARRY SEROTA:  There was a festival, a Saminsky festival around 1951.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  What?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eBARRY SEROTA:  At the University of Chicago, they put on The Vision of Ariel.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  Yeah.  I think I remember this, but I was not yet at Temple Emanu-El at that time. I remember the thing that he had — and Leon Stein also was subsequently invited to, to come to, to Temple Emanu-El.\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Um…","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=4106.0,4139.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/34541/annotation/288","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"HERMAN BERLINSKI:  But Saminsky — as a composer, I would say that at one concert which was given at one occasion at Hunter College with a large orchestra, I found his symphonic work sterile, disappointing, and not rewarding. His synagogue music has found a steady home in Temple Emanu-El.  And I have a sinking feeling that beyond that, it has not, it has not found a niche.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  No.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  But who am I to say?  My music isn’t, is completely, totally…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  But there are some symphonies, some big symphonies, or a couple of operas, I think, that are only in manuscript.  That were never performed.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  That’s possible, but I, I would not know. But, whatever I have heard symphonically, left me very cold.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Then you went to, or before, before Washington, I want to just ask you, did you also deal with Yasser?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=4139.0,4190.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/34541/annotation/289","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"HERMAN BERLINSKI:  Well, Yasser became my first teacher.  And I took classes with Yasser, and what they, what they did at that time was a reconstruction of Biblical music.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Of what?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  A reconstruction of Biblical music.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  And that was, that was an exercise in futility, which lasted for two semesters.  And every time I came home, and my wife told me, “Can you sing, can you sing anything?  Can you try to, would you reconstruct this?”  And they’re speaking about reconstruction, they haven’t been able to reconstruct anything.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Well, that’s, that’s musicology.  But anyway, where was this class?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  At the Jewish Theological Seminary.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Oh, that was at, that was your first class at the Seminary.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  That was my, that was my doctorate program.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  And so you entered a, but you eventually…","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=4190.0,4234.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/34541/annotation/290","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"HERMAN BERLINSKI:  I went, I went in with the understanding that I would get into a doctoral program.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Who was your advisor there?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  Hugo Weisgall.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Oh, Weisgall was?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Even then?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  Oh, yeah.  He was.  He was a…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  And you were the first — I mean, technically, the second, because of alphabetical reasons, right?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  Well, that’s, that’s, that’s a long story.  Hor, Horcourt — what was his name?  Or Honems.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Honems.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  Honems was, was about three minutes later, so I’m still the first.  And it’s not my mistake that my name starts with a B.  But that was the way.  We both graduated at the same day.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=4234.0,4267.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/34541/annotation/291","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"HERMAN BERLINSKI:  And the, the studies were a source of profound experience in me, both in the most positive way, but also, a negative way. The negative aspect of it was that I was not admitted to any study of Judaic contents.  The, the rabbis at the Theological Seminary felt that you can only study Judaica at the Theological Seminary if you get into rabbinical school.  So, when it came to studying Judaica, I had to go to Dropsie College, Philadelphia, and take some basic courses there and credits. And, in addition to this — you may remember this vaguely, or maybe don’t, maybe you were too young — there was a major scandal with Yeshiva College.  Where doctor degrees had been handed out a little bit…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  You mean Yeshiva University?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=4267.0,4317.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/34541/annotation/292","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:\u003c/strong\u003e Yeah — Yeshiva University — where they were handed a little on the fast side.  And everybody became worried.  And instead of 90 credits which were necessary, they required me of 120 credits, you know.  They, they, everything became a little bit more difficult. So I had to take hazzanut with Cantor Max Wohlberg, which was a delight.  I have never seen a man who knew as much, and were as humble as Max Wohlberg was.  That was, that was a great thing.  And, and what I learned with him went deep into my bloodstream as a composer.  It functions, it functions invariably.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=4317.0,4351.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/34541/annotation/293","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:\u003c/strong\u003e I took cantellation with Shlomo Rossovsky.  And I was, I was virtually once more bar mitzvahed with him, at the examination.  And I was a good cantellator.  And it came me, to the, when I eventually came to Washington, where nobody ever chanted, I, coming fresh, fresh out of the Seminary, where Rossovsky introduced cantellation. There, they’re having 250 bar mitzvahs a year, and everybody who could sing two notes, cantellates.  But, I had a profound sense of the value of cantellation over there.  Indeed, he gave me one of his books with a personal dedication. Shlomo Rossovsky wanted me also his — he wanted me his, his successor.  And I said, I’m not cut out.  I’m a composer.  I am not a musicologist at heart.  I studied musicology because it has to be, but deeply down, I’m a composer.  But I have a good Zvi yavetz (?). You know the story about Einstein and Rossovsky?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=4351.0,4409.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/34541/annotation/294","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"NEIL LEVIN:  No.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  Somebody stopped him on the street, and he said, “Are you Professor Einstein?” And he said, “I am not, but he also was a great man.”\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eBARRY SEROTA:  Let me ask you a question for a moment, to backtrack.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eBARRY SEROTA:  When you were at Temple Emanu-El, when you were the organist and Saminsky was the music director, what sort of repertoire did they perform?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  Well…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eBARRY SEROTA:  What percentage of the music was Saminsky’s?  And if it wasn’t Saminsky’s, whose music was being performed?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=4409.0,4434.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/34541/annotation/295","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:\u003c/strong\u003e I would say 60 to 70 percent was Saminsky.  And that wasn’t, had gotten quite accustomed to it. Saminsky’s music is accessible.  It is a little bit on the dry side.  But then, I want, I want to tell you something which is not easy — you’ve got to be a musician to understand it. Saminsky had an uncanny sense of the place.  The way Temple Emanu-El is built, you could sing a Schoenberg, and by the time it comes down, it’s angelic, because the, the room filters music to such a point that counterpoint doesn’t mean a thing. Now, if you were to do Avodat Shabbat in the big Temple Emanu-El, I think 80% of that contrapuntal work would be lost.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=4434.0,4482.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/34541/annotation/296","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:\u003c/strong\u003e Saminsky wrote a harmonic style which is as transparent as crystal is, as glass.  And he wrote, I would even say, a non-harmonic style, where the harmony, harmonies are so diffused, so indeterminate, that you never really have a feeling this thing is being harmonized. But if you had the choir he had built — and he was uncanny and skillful in selecting not only a good-sounding choir, but in most time, also a good-looking choir — I mean, they were very young.  And he, he told me once, “Berlinski always knows a good soprano when he sees one.” And however, I have never heard any Jewish religious music coming through as beautifully as it does in Temple Emanu-El.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=4482.0,4533.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/34541/annotation/297","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"HERMAN BERLINSKI:  Now, but I later came to Washington Hebrew Congregation, as a disciple of Saminsky. And I told my rabbi, “We’ve got to do Saminsky.  We’ve got to do Saminsky first of all.”  And Saminsky was dead already, at that time, but I did it. And to my own surprise did I find out, not half as good in the different acoustic of the Washington Hebrew Congregation.  Nothing was of that sort.  And I mention this to you — that the acoustic of the place, that’s what Saminsky wrote for.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Did they do Binder music there?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=4533.0,4565.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/34541/annotation/298","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"HERMAN BERLINSKI:  Saminsky and Binder were deadly enemies.  If you mentioned the word “Binder” in Saminsky’s presence, he wouldn’t speak to you for two years.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  So, they didn’t do Binder’s music.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  They never did one line of Binder.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  In the classic days, we’re talking about the…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  Okay.  He had, he had first of all…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Who?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=4565.0,4580.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/34541/annotation/299","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"HERMAN BERLINSKI: Spicker and Sparger.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  They still did that?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  Yeah.  Oh, yes.  And I think they’re still doing it now.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Really?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  With the kiddushe by, by, patterned after \u003cINAUDIBLE\u003e.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Not now?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  I don’t know.  I, I haven’t been there lately.  You understand?  But Spiegel and Sparkle.  But they did that damn thing in Berlin.  They traveled with this.  The famous Adon Olom by Warren, which is a magnificent piece, but that does…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  By who?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  Warren — W-A-R-R-E-N.  Adon Olom, which is a Sephardic tune, you know.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eBARRY SEROTA:  Did they do pieces by Federlein, the organist?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=4580.0,4612.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/34541/annotation/300","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"HERMAN BERLINSKI:  Federlein, Gottfried Federlein.  And, of course, the, the, the various adaptation by Massenet, and Gounod, and Mozart, all…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  They were still doing that in the ‘50s?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  In my time.  This is how new this was.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Oh.  I thought that was only in the 19th century.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  No, no, no, no.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Still doing it in the ‘50s?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=4612.0,4631.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/34541/annotation/301","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"HERMAN BERLINSKI:  No, no.  I had these manuscripts, you know, written only in parts.  You, you know, when I came, there were no scores for the singers.  Each one had just a vocal part.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eBARRY SEROTA:  What about the services that they had commissioned?  The Achron service, the Jacobi service?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  During, I served in — I served from 1954 to 1963 — we never did a single piece by Achron.  I know the Achron service very well.  He never did it.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  But it must have been done once there?  When it was commissioned.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  When they commissioned it.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  And that was the end of it.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  That was before my time.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  And that was the end of it.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  Never.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  And the same with Jacobi?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=4631.0,4662.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/34541/annotation/302","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:\u003c/strong\u003e Frederick Jacobi, whom I know very — by the way, Frederick Jacobi, I have a dear souvenir.  I was sent, and I cannot tell you who sent me the Frederick Jacobi.  I visited him in his villa in 19.., when I came, in Riverdale.  And I showed him what I had.  And he sat with me for hours and discussed everything; advised me, and helped me; recommended me. He was a soulful person, and I think he was a wonderful composer.  And I regret that his music has disappeared. I did — we had, when — as soon as I came to Washington, we did a whole evening of, of Jacobi’s second service, which David Putterman commissioned. And I had Irene Jacobi coming down and playing some chamber music of her husband.  He’s a composer of great value to me; very great value, but not of the thing.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=4662.0,4716.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/34541/annotation/303","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"HERMAN BERLINSKI:  However, in the last years, what Saminsky did was to invite people to come.  And that’s when he, he invited Leo Stein.  He invited Isidore Freed.  Isidore Freed was done a great deal.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Did they do, they did Freed’s music?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  Oh, yeah.  Isidore Fried.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  In the ‘50s.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  The kiddushe and so on.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  That was pretty new, then.  In the ‘50s.  That was new music.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  Oh, yes.  Oh yes, yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Fromm?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  Fromm he did, he invited Fromm to come down, and they did a whole evening.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  And they did…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  Yeah, yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  But that was all new, as of the ‘50s?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  From the, what about…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  Sam Adler he had come from Texas, and, and he did a whole evening of Sam Adler.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  But that’s later.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  But Steuben…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  But the standard repertoire, if I want to know what was the standard repertoire…","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=4716.0,4751.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/34541/annotation/304","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"HERMAN BERLINSKI:  The standard repertoire was \u003cINAUDIBLE\u003e Saminsky, Federlein, Spicker and Sparger.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  What about somebody called Gerhardt M. Cohen?  You don’t know that name at all?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  That name doesn’t mean anything.  But there was…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  No.  He was at Temple Emanu-El in 1860, 1850.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  Yeah.  But there, there were some responses which, which I am very fond of, even today, by Poznanski.  Does that name mean anything to you?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eBARRY SEROTA:  Poznanski?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=4751.0,4774.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/34541/annotation/305","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"HERMAN BERLINSKI:  Yeah.  Gustavus Poznanski.  And, and the funny thing is that this Poznanski is that reputed Poznanski which the congregation in Charleston hired to come from Posner, from Poland, to the United States to help them to fight against the organ, organ party.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  That was a court case.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=4774.0,4799.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/34541/annotation/306","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:\u003c/strong\u003e Yeah? That went to court.  And when Poznanski came and played, sang a few, few months with the organ, he said, he changed his mind — he likes it fine.  And he deserted them.  And eventually, he left and he came to New York.  And he, he left a few responses. There was another composer, by the name of Davis, who left a few responses, but…","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=4799.0,4822.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/34541/annotation/307","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"BARRY SEROTA:  I have some manuscripts that were written for Moshe Rudinow by Paul Dessau around 1939, 1940.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  Well, Paul Dessau is a very critical case.  Paul Dessau, there is, in the publication of Putterman’s synagogue music — you know that volume?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eBARRY SEROTA:  Hmmm-mmm.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  There are some responses by Paul Dessau, and they are damn good.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  But there’s not much.  This is very little…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  It’s very little…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eBARRY SEROTA:  But there were a few additional works.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  Very effective.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eBARRY SEROTA:  For example, Rudinow recorded a Vayechulu…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  Yeah?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eBARRY SEROTA:  …by Paul Dessau around 1940 which was an excerpt from a longer work…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  Yeah, yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eBARRY SEROTA:  …which was for choir and so forth.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=4822.0,4853.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/34541/annotation/308","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"HERMAN BERLINSKI:  Yeah, but Paul Dessau, you know, went back to communistic Germany…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eBARRY SEROTA:  Yeah, right.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  …and eventually….  And…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  But what, in, in Rudinow’s, these things, I mean, he didn’t sing in that at all?  He didn’t do them?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  I beg your pardon?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Like the Dessau.  He didn’t…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  No.  That, that, that…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  No.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  I, Dessau I met only …and I wish I had this, when Schoenberg wrote his Kol Nidre, he had asked Dessau to present it to the Jewish Music Forum.  And he wrote a letter in which Schoenberg professes about his bloodiest ignorance about the history of the Kol Nidre.  And, and defended himself, or apologized, for having written such an immoral prayer as a Kol Nidre, for reasons which he felt was important.  But he, he did not understand it. And it was presented him with, I think Rudinow sang it, and he was accompanied by a piano, or something like this.  But…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eBARRY SEROTA:  Did you know Rudinow well?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  Hmmm?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eBARRY SEROTA:  Did you know Rudinoff well?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=4853.0,4920.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/34541/annotation/309","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"HERMAN BERLINSKI:  Oh, yes.  He was one of the first people.  I came to Rudinow and I couldn’t speak very well English, so he spoke Yiddish to me.  And he spoke very good Yiddish. And I asked Rudinow, “Moshe,” I said, “will I ever make a living?  I have a wife and a child.” And he said the very classical word, “Az ihr hot var zey darfn”— if you have what they need. \u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  At the Seminary, what was your, you had to write a piece, a major work, for your dissertation.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=4920.0,4952.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/34541/annotation/310","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"HERMAN BERLINSKI:  The, the original plan was that I write a master dissertation, because when this scandal with Yeshiva College came about, and they piled on additional credits and they said, “You’d better make a master before you get a doctorate.”  And the master dissertation was Rabbinical Inhibitions in the Development of Jewish Music.  I could have hoisted a, a red flag over a swastika at the Jewish Theological Seminary — it wouldn’t have been any worse.  Because…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  One moment.  You did — you actually wrote that?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  I wrote that, yes.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Do you have a copy of it?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  Certainly, I have it.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Well, we would like to have it.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  But it’s strictly trayf.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Why?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  Because when, when Heschel, who was my advisor, saw that, he almost fainted.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Well, why?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=4952.0,4994.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/34541/annotation/311","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:\u003c/strong\u003e Because, because my thesis at that time was that, given the talent of the Jewish people, and given the biblical antecedent of the importance of Jewish music, it is a very big question — why does our Dark Age last for so long?  And why did we not have a body of music which would be world-famous?  Anything.  We’ve got the talent; we’ve got the inclination; we’ve got the temperament.  What happens? And then, I said there were halakhic inhibitions, the various laws which were passed by the rabbis, which limited, more and more and more, and froze in the tradition.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=4994.0,5032.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/34541/annotation/312","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"NEIL LEVIN:  In other words — all right.  So, look — Heschel disagreed with your…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  Oh, yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  …with your thesis.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  And…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  That is to say, with your position, with your explanation.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  Yes.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  That I can understand.  But still, you, the supporting factual…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  Well, I couldn’t, I couldn’t, I couldn’t get a master’s on this.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  So, they didn’t approve the master’s.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  No.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  But you still have the paper?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  I still have it, yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  So but, so I would like to see it.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  I would like to see it.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=5032.0,5051.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/34541/annotation/313","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:\u003c/strong\u003e And well, it has many things.  Don’t, don’t forget that I had, in addition to that, was Hugo Weisgall.  And as difficult a person as Weisgall was, to me, he was a friend.  There isn’t a thing he didn’t do to help me. He criticized me.  He sometimes embarrassed me.  Because ob, obviously, I was a, I’m foreign-born, I’m, I don’t speak English like he does.  He was only three months old when he came here, but still.  And, and Weisgall is, is a past master of the English language, so, there’s a big difference. So Weisgall came over to me and said, “Herman, why should you battle with Heschel?  There will be no end to this whole thing.  I agree with you.  I understand your point of view.  But you will not get a doctorate in this institution.  I believe in you as a composer.” And, that he did; that he did, wholeheartedly. And we collected a number of compositions at that time, and I got my master’s, based on this.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=5051.0,5107.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/34541/annotation/314","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"NEIL LEVIN:  In, in composition?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  In, in, in composition.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Instead of…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  Instead of the dissertation.  In lieu of the dissertation.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  But you did get a doctorate from the Seminary.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  Well, wait a minute.  I got the master’s first, yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  You got the master’s first, and with Weisgall as your advisor.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  Yeah, Weisgall.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  And on the basis of a composition.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  Yeah.  When, when…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  What was that composition?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=5107.0,5125.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/34541/annotation/315","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"HERMAN BERLINSKI:  Now, that Kiddush Hashem.  Then, the, when the, the project for the doctorate came, it was decided that I’m going to continue to, to function as a composer.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Can I ask you, what, in just in one sentence, if you had to, what was Heschel’s position?  I mean, what did, how did he explain the…","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=5125.0,5148.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/34541/annotation/316","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:\u003c/strong\u003e Well, well, there was one chapter in that thing in which I deal with the magical element in religion, the Jewish religion.  I said the trumpets of Jericho is magic.  The bells on the, on the seam of the priests is a magical element. Now, those are non-Jewish interpretations.  They don’t fit in with the, with the concept he had about it.  Magic, he said, is deadly in Jewish religion.  It’s forbidden by penalty of death.  And to, to insinuate that they were magical practice is dangerous.  It, you, you will get, it will get somebody. Beside the point, and that it was Heschel’s typical attitude, and he may have been right.  “You’re a musician — what do you know about rabbinics?  You, you’re venturing into a territory which is none of your business.  Of which you have…”","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=5148.0,5198.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/34541/annotation/317","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"NEIL LEVIN:  All I’m getting at and I don’t want to belabor it, is that there are…I’m curious to know what…there are various explanations. Johanna Spector used to say something similar to this by the way. Other people…say that it’s not the answer. The position is…had there been no rabbinic injunctions or unfriendliness to music…\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  It never got that far. It never got that far. Eventually when I was…when I felt isolated through Heschel, I went to Rabbi Max Kadushin and showed him this. Kadushin, who was a Conservative rabbi, said this, “This is an opus magnum.”  He was deeply impressed with it.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Well, I mean, what I’m getting at is, what is the position, what is your position, that, had the weight of rabbinical authority through the past thousand years…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  Yeah?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=5198.0,5250.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/34541/annotation/318","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"NEIL LEVIN:  …been different, been in favor of, had there been no prohibitions against instruments on Shabbes — whatever you want, whether for good or bad reasons…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  We would have had a body of music…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  But there are other people who would — you can make a case to the contrary.  That’s why I’m curious that Heschel — that the fact is, without a state of our own, without a country, without a nationalism…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  …that you, it wouldn’t have made any difference.  That that’s the answer — that people without a nation, without a state…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  Well…","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=5250.0,5275.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/34541/annotation/319","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eNEIL LEVIN:\u003c/strong\u003e I’m just saying there are different explanations.  That the prohibitions, the rabbinical, the halakhic prohibitions is not the primary reason why there is no national body of, national tradition of Jewish music on the level you said. Or other people can — and then, there’s a third answer.  Which is to say, why is there no French Shakespeare?  Because I don’t care what the French say — there is no French Shakespeare.  And then Molière, and all the others — there’s not a Shakespeare.  On the other hand, there is no English Beethoven.  So, you know, the answer there is yet a third thing — that there are certain cultural differences that just are there.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=5275.0,5306.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/34541/annotation/320","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:\u003c/strong\u003e I, my, my thesis was different.  My thesis was that, given the affinity which we have for music; given the fact that the painting and sculpting were forbidden to us; that the emotional outlet had to be music.  We couldn’t move any other way, because no other art was available. Architecture was a foreign, imported art.  We never claimed that we had an architect.  Even the temples were built by foreign workmen, you know. Music was the thing which we developed on our own.  And every line in the Bible speaking about music testifies. Now, for instance, when you take, even, the, the, the incident in Shmuel, where the story goes about Shmuel’s sickness, and the, the sensitivity — the, the, for instance, they were deeply convinced that, that music has a curing, a therapeutic effect. And when you read, when you take the Book of Psalms — this is what I bring out in my lecture when I go to Germany — this is a libretto which we have written for the whole music of Western civilization.  It could not have been written by a people — whether it’s King David or ten King Davids — it could not have been written by a people who is insensitive towards the emotional scope of, of music, you know.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=5306.0,5386.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/34541/annotation/321","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:\u003c/strong\u003e And shiru l’Adonai shir chadash — eight times, It happens there.  “Why a new song?  Why a new song?”  You know the kabbalistic, beautiful thing is the, the rabbis sit there and they said, “shiru l’Adonai shir chadash — why shouldn’t it be a new song?” And the rabbis said, “Because God created the world.  And if man was created in the image, image of God, he must create.  He is not in the image of God, if he doesn’t create.” Tradition is not creation. And then, the other rabbi ask him — do you know this paragraph in the Kabbalah?  And so, the other rabbi asked him, “How did God create the world?”","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=5386.0,5427.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/34541/annotation/322","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"And he said, “At one point, he exploded an atom.  And all of the bodies above are flying apart.” You don’t know that, from the …?\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  No, because we’re not allowed to study the Zohar.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  Yeah?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  It’s forbidden.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=5427.0,5440.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/34541/annotation/323","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"HERMAN BERLINSKI:  Exploded.  And then, the angel of the heaven, of the heaven got together and sang a song in praise of God; the most beautiful image, you know.  And it, it’s the “Big Bang” theory, but it’s music. So, when the Congregation of Seattle asked me to write a piece for the dedication of their new organ, I knew what I was going to write shiru l’Adonai shir chadash. And the whole story of the Kabbalah is being narrated, in between the numbers they sing.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Um…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  That’s, by the way, also, a very nice cantata.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Let’s, just, the Kiddush Hashem is for what?  What’s the…","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=5440.0,5476.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/34541/annotation/324","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"HERMAN BERLINSKI:  Large choir, large orchestra.  And you know…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  And is there a recording of that?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  No, it’s never been performed.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Is it, is it…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  It rots there, in the Jewish Theological Seminary.  For years, it was lost.  They found it, and everything.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Never performed before.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  Never performed.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Now, tell me about the…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  Now, now, may I just tell this?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Yeah.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=5476.0,5498.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/34541/annotation/325","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"HERMAN BERLINSKI:  The Litanies for the Persecuted, I took these pieces out from Kiddush Hashem.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  I see.  So, actually…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  You see…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  …if we do Litanies for the Persecuted, this is a…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  Because, since it wasn’t performed, I might just as well use it.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Right.  Okay. Now, tell me about the doctoral dissertation.  What was the name of that piece?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=5498.0,5512.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/34541/annotation/326","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"HERMAN BERLINSKI:  Kiddush Hashem.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  No — this, you said this was the master’s.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  No, no.  The master’s were May the Words,, L’kha Dodi — and they were, they were the five little pieces.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Kiddush Hashem was the doctoral?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  The Kiddush Hashem was the doctoral, yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eBARRY SEROTA:  Including Litanies for the Persecuted.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  No, the Litanies was not that part.  No, that was not accepted.  That was a…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  It was extracted from it, really.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  Yeah, yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Now, I see.  Well, what was The Burning Bush?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  That was very funny.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  That was not your doctoral?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  It had nothing to do with it.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eBARRY SEROTA:  That’s an organ piece, isn’t it?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=5512.0,5539.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/34541/annotation/327","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:\u003c/strong\u003e Baker, Robert Baker, who was the senior organist, found that the organ is not sufficient.  It lacks the big trumpets; what we call “the papal trumpets” or “the state trumpets.”  And he, he needed many things which he wanted, to make that organ one of the best organs in town.  And, at that time, he persuaded Saminsky that he should persuade the balebattim to renovate the organ at the tune of $20,000, $22,000.  It would have been about a quarter million dollars today. And they ordered the village tubes — those are those big, big, big trumpets.  They are so big that they have to be mitered.  They’re standing, they have to be bent over, because they cannot sit tall.  There are under different pressure, and they make a formidable sound.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=5539.0,5588.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/34541/annotation/328","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"And they went to the rabbis and they told him, “We want these big trumpets.” And the rabbis said, “Trumpets, smumpets.  We have enough of these.”\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Which rabbi was this?  Mark?  Julius Mark?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  Mark.  And Perlman, yeah, yeah.  Julius Mark. “We have enough of this.  It’s loud enough.” And Baker came to me and he said, “Herman, could you give a little help?” And I said, “I have an idea.” The, they have a shofar stop there, which sounds like a cat meowing, I assure you.  The Hebrew name for trumpet is not shofar.  The Hebrew name is chatzotzrot.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=5588.0,5624.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/34541/annotation/329","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:\u003c/strong\u003e “Don’t tell him they need the papal trumpets and they need state trumpets, and they need oshomad (?).”  This — the organ, it’s a Jewish organ, Temple Emanu-El has no chatzotzrot. And we came back to that meeting, and we presented this.  “No chatzotzrot .” And the rabbis were scratching their head.  “Our organ has no chatzotzrot ?  Gevalt!  Gidoff ma!  We must have chatzotzrot.” So they were ordered.  And when they were finally installed, Baker came to me and he said, “Herman, you’ve got to write a piece where you could use the chatzotzrot. You’ve got to prove that, that something is…”. And I went around and — in other words, the chatzotzrot were installed. And the organ company had to build a map where it’s going to have chatzotzrot.  You can go on the right side, it still, still stays there.  Spelled out chatzotzrot. And I went. And at that time, I was a student of the Jewish Theological Seminary.  And my first idea was to write a piece describing how Samson breaks down the columns of the temple, you know, with the whole thing.  And maybe that’s not uplifting, you know, that, it may not go very well.  And if you want me to, maybe God wanted it. And he said, “Look up.” And I look up and I saw v’hasneh b’ir b’esh— the fire consumed, did not consume the bush.  And then, I knew that I had the piece.  It comes from the Jewish Theological Seminary.  Then I knew I had the piece.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=5624.0,5724.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/34541/annotation/330","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"HERMAN BERLINSKI: And, at that point, I asked myself, I could take the cantellation with Rossovsky, with, you know, with voca dah, but that would not, I wanted it, I wanted a, a burning bush. And I could find no melody which possibly could insinuate, which could transmit that feeling.  And I went back to the text, and I found that when Moses asked God, “In whose name shall I come?”  And then, he gets this famous “Asher ehyeh asher .”  Da-da-da-dum, da-dum, da-da-dum.  So, instead of a theme, I had a rhythmical cell. And I said, with this rhythmical cell, I can do anything I want to.  And I used 12-tone techniques at the beginning, and through the whole thing.  But this thing goes through the whole thing.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  This is an organ piece?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  An organ piece.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Strictly an organ piece.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  There’s a recording of it, of course?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  There have been five or six recordings.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Yeah.  Okay. Now, I want to ask you about that Avodat Shabbat.  Now, is that Avodat Ha Shabbat or is that Avodat Shabbat?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  Avodat Shabbat.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Avodat Shabbat.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Tell me about it.  How did it…","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=5724.0,5800.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/34541/annotation/331","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"HERMAN BERLINSKI:  Well, at that time, Dave Putterman and I knew each other from the Jewish Music Forum.  And if you didn’t get commissioned by David Putterman sooner or later, you didn’t count.  I think Weisgall never got, and he had never, never overcome it.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eBARRY SEROTA:  Weisgall was commissioned to write a hashkiveinu.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  Yeah.  That I’m aware.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eBARRY SEROTA:  And I believe that, at the service where it was supposed to be performed, the music had not yet arrived.  So, in that particular spot, Putterman improvised on that particular text.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=5800.0,5834.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/34541/annotation/332","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:\u003c/strong\u003e Well, Putterman did not commission me right away.  He said, “I want you to write one piece for me.”  And he said, “Write for me a V’sham’ru.” And I wrote him a V’sham’ru.  And I must say, in all honesty, I’m very proud of the piece.  But, sugar and honey and soft and melodious, and anything I could invent to make that piece pleasant, I did there; that V’sham’ru.” And he liked it very much.  And he performed it at a concert, maybe at that same evening when Weisgall’s piece was not there.  So, that was a contemporary evening. But after the V’sham’ru, he immediately commissioned me to write a whole service.  I got a whole $250 for it. And I must say that, that at that time, of course, I was organist at Temple Emanu-El.  And it helped me a great deal, because, in spite of the competition and animosity between the Conservative and the Reform, they had, had a lot of, a lot of respect for Putterman’s work and for Putterman’s things. And Richard Korn went there to conduct.  And it was a wonderful evening.  It was a very wonderful evening.  And Putterman, who was in already declining voice, but with so much conviction and so much style and so much nobility, sang it, that it left a mark there.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=5834.0,5910.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/34541/annotation/333","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"NEIL LEVIN:  I want you to know that in 196.. — I don’t know — ‘5, ‘6, ‘7 — I showed something to Weisgall.  Didn’t know him then.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  Yeah?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  And he said, he didn’t think it was very good.  And it wasn’t, you know.  It was just imitating old-fashioned, for the synagogue.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  And then, I showed him a few other things.  And we talked about what, and he said, “Listen.  You want to look at something serious?  Look at Herman Berlinski’s Avodat.”\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  Yeah?  Well, Weisgall always….And, and, and the sad part of it is that I had the same dilemma with Weisgall that I had with Saminsky.  I did perform Weisgall — his May the Words and his Mi Kamocha — and at the congregation.  And I took a, took a little bit of a risk in these things.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=5910.0,5956.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/34541/annotation/334","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:\u003c/strong\u003e But Weisgall did not understand that there is a natural dichotomy between writing for the synagogue and writing for the concert hall or the opera.  That, that in a synagogue, you are, your music is directional.  It, it goes to God, which is one dimension.  But it goes to the congregation, is another dimension.  And if a hazzan is a shaliach tzibbur, so must be the composer.  You cannot express to God, in one sense, what the congregation does not feel.  That there are compromises to be made, I admit.  I have made them, too. But you cannot possibly — and that Weisgall, I think, was that this is absolutely un — he, he wouldn’t move.  He wrote what he wanted to write, and they liked it fine or they didn’t like it — it didn’t make any difference to him.  But at least now, you, you’ll bring it back.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=5956.0,6015.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/34541/annotation/335","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:\u003c/strong\u003e The first encounter between Weisgall, Saminsky and I was when Weisgall gave a concert at Chizuk Amuno in Baltimore sometime in 1953, or at that point, where he did some Weisgall for his own work. He did some Saminsky work; and he did my, the first L’kha dodi which I have written.  That is not part of the Avodat Shabbat — I did a, I wrote a different L’kha dodi for the Avodat Shabbat.  This is another one.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=6015.0,6045.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/34541/annotation/336","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"BARRY SEROTA:  Weisgall was rather close with Saminsky, wasn’t he?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  Weisgall was very close to Saminsky.  And, and, and at one point, and I, Weisgall told me, he wanted to be his successor, too.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eBARRY SEROTA:  Now, among the people who were close with Weisgall, there were other people who had associations with Saminsky.  I think Miriam Gideon.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  Miriam, yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eBARRY SEROTA:  And Albert Weiser.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=6045.0,6068.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/34541/annotation/337","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:\u003c/strong\u003e Yes, I, I — let me speak first about Albert Weisser.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAlbert Weisser was — I wouldn’t call him a musicologist — more of a writer on music, more on a literary level, you understand?  And was actually destined to write the biography of Saminsky.  And he was his personal biographer, and was supposed to write the great work on Saminsky.  And unfortunately, he died very young. He, I have one or two compositions — you know that Weisser is the son of the Cantor Pilar Weisser.  And, and some compositions of Albert Weisser which shows him to be a very talented composer.  Unfortunately, he never wrote enough to, to develop it. Because, in composition, it is not only a qualitative, but there’s also a quantitative aspect of it.  You’ve got to write a lot of music — even write a lot of bad music, in, in order to write some good music. You, you know, at one point, when I came to Nadia Boulanger in my younger years, and she asked me, “What did you bring me today?” And I said, “I didn’t have any inspirations this week.” And she said, “Don’t you ever dare to come with that stupid excuse, because if you write, you write, good or bad.  If you don’t write, you write nothing.  There’s nothing to talk about.” And quantitatively, Weisser did not, never wrote enough to, to become on his own.  But I have very fond memories of it.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=6068.0,6153.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/34541/annotation/338","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eNEIL LEVIN:\u003c/strong\u003e How did Weisgall’s influence impact negatively on Gideon?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=6153.0,6211.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/34541/annotation/339","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"HERMAN BERLINSKI:  Weisgall was a past master in getting every, every grant, every commission, everything he wanted to because he, he belonged to that, what I call “the guild.”\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  But how was that a negative — you mean, that was also a negative influence on Gideon, you feel?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  I think it, it, it left, it left, it robbed Gideon of her own natural, very soft, feminine — she would have been a wonderful composer, if, if, if she would have not have the ambition to, to be somebody in that surrounding.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  She had two Friday, two Sabbath services.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  Yeah, I know this.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Now, so back to Avodat Shabbat.  This was, the first performance was at Park Avenue Synagogue?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  Yes.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Now, you’ve had other performances.  Tell me — you had, you then subsequently orchestrated it?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=6211.0,6257.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/34541/annotation/340","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:\u003c/strong\u003e Well, the opportunity came with Rabbi Klausner — Abraham Klausner, of Temple Emanu-El.  His cantor was Jerold Siena, you know, the singer at the City Center Opera.  And he had suggested to Rabbi Klausner that they should Avodat Shabbat, but he would need an octet for it.  They usually have a quartet because they have sometimes two sopranos. And Klausner was very much in doubt whether he could have the money to have an octet.  And he said, “Well, let me see what I could do.  I have a friend I want to show this score.”","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=6257.0,6296.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/34541/annotation/341","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"HERMAN BERLINSKI:  And what I didn’t know that the friend was Leonard Bernstein.  And he showed the score to Leonard Bernstein, and he — Leonard Bernstein wrote a letter to him, that he has seen the Berlinski score and he found it very touching, very moving.  And he said, “If you don’t do it, I will.” With that letter, Klausner went to 838 Fifth Avenue and got himself $25,000.  And I orchestrated it. And at that night, when it was done with Barkin, we, we had the Jeremiah symphony of Leonard Bernstein and my Avodat Shabbat.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Where was this?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  At Lincoln Center.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  And what year was that?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  1964, exactly.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  ’64?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  Yeah.  And there was, I was just one year…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  And, of course, it’s a pity there’s no recording of that.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  I have no recording of that.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  You don’t have a recording of the Avodat Shabbat that you…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  Not, none whatsoever.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Not a good one.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  No.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=6296.0,6349.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/34541/annotation/342","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"NEIL LEVIN:  You don’t have a recording with orchestra or without orchestra?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  Of which one?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Avodat Shabbat.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  No, nothing.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eBARRY SEROTA:  There’s an archival recording.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Archival.  Yeah, I know.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eBARRY SEROTA:  From Park Avenue.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  But I mean, not a good….  So, we need to record that.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eIn Washington, what were, what was your repertoire?  I mean, how much of your own music did you…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  Now…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  You were there from ’63 until you retired.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  Let me…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  When did you retire?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  Let me tell you first how I got to Washington, because that has some importance to me.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  At the time you got it, there was no cantor in that synagogue, was there?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=6349.0,6381.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/34541/annotation/343","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"HERMAN BERLINSKI:  Washington had no cantor.  At that time, Yasser told me, you know, “How much they are paying you?” And I said, X amount of money. And he said, “Do you have a cantor?” And I said no. He said, “Take a thousand dollars less,”  Yasser told me. And, however, they had Max Helfman.  Max Helfman came there for the Yamim Noraim, for their High Holidays; and the rabbinical family, the Gerstenfelds, very much befriended with Eric Werner.  I don’t know how Werner got to them, but Werner was a very close friend to them.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eBARRY SEROTA:  And I mentioned to you that I had a recording of Werner’s service as performed at a High Holidays in Washington Hebrew Congregation?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=6381.0,6429.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/34541/annotation/344","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"HERMAN BERLINSKI:  Yes.  And Werner’s music is about the worst German, Teutonic type of Jewish music I know of.  What, what is, what is not Werner is so-so Lewandowski, they better be left alone to their own thing.  But it, it, it is, it is stodgy, really stodgy. However, the, I was called to Washington, and, and Rabbi Gerstenfeld, he said, “I want you to come to Washington, because they have hired, at the Kaye Theater, Mr. Saubi.  And this is going to be a center of Episcopalian music.  I’m hiring you.”\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHe came from Chicago — you remember him?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Leon, Leon…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  Yeah.  Leon Saubi.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  “I want you to be the center of Jewish music here.” And I said, “This is exactly what I want.  At Temple Emanu-El, I’m going to be for the rest of my life number three.  Cantor Wolfson, a goyishe organist, and I.”  And we had a pact that I could do anything I wanted to.  So, I could perform a great deal.  And the repertoire was, was, every week was sensational.  Indeed, I had one, one, one situation whereby The Washington Post and The Washington Star came at least once a month to the Washington Hebrew Congregation, to find out what’s going on musically and report about it.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Is your position in Washington Hebrew Congregation — that was as music director and organist?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=6429.0,6508.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/34541/annotation/345","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"HERMAN BERLINSKI:  Yeah.  Music director, organist, and then, later on, they gave me the title of minister of music, because they, due to the fact that they had no cantor and they wanted to have a Jewish musical…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  This was the congregation that received a famous letter from George Washington?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  They, they have some…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Or something.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=6508.0,6525.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/34541/annotation/346","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"HERMAN BERLINSKI:  It’s a very historical congregation.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Isn’t there something that — have you seen it?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eBARRY SEROTA:  I recall…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  There was a letter somewhere from George Washington to this group, before it — of course, it wasn’t Washington.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  This, this I really don’t, don’t….  I know that Charleston, South Carolina had a charter.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  There was some letter…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  …by George Washington.  Anyway…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eBARRY SEROTA:  But they also went to the Touro Synagogue.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  No, this is something else.  But maybe I’m confused.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eBARRY SEROTA:  He wrote a lot of letters.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Yeah.  This congregation engaged a cantor subsequently.  I mean, now they have a cantor — that’s Manevich.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  Of course they do.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Is it Manevich?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  Yeah, Manevich.\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  So, when…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  And I, I, I got him.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  You brought in Manevich?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  I, I brought Manevich, yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  So, was he the first cantor there?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  No, it was, the other one was Roy Garber.\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Roy Garber.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  Roy Garber, yeah.  Who came from, from Kansas City.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  So, when did they decide to have a cantor?  Because…","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=6525.0,6575.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/34541/annotation/347","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:\u003c/strong\u003e Well, well, let me say this.  Pure demographically, like all the Temple Emanu-Els, the Washington Hebrew Congregation also was a German-Jewish settlement.  A congregation who, who was dominated by German-Jewish tradition. And, as such, they were accustomed to, if not to the kind of music I would do, but at least to the fact that the music comes from the front into the congregation; a representational type of music liturgy with here and there a song the congregation was allowed to sing along.  They did not know about davening or anything like this.  It was a typical German Reform.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=6575.0,6616.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/34541/annotation/348","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Now, as time went on, Gerstenfeld eventually died.  After the first five years he was dead, during those five years, I could do almost anything I wanted to. However, it is not so that Gerstenfeld was ruling that place without any limitation.  Gerstenfeld sold me to this congregation not as a music, not as a composer, not as an organist — he sold me that, with this man, we can teach bar mitzvah.  For the first time, you have a first-class bar mitzvah teacher. And I jumped in with a great deal of joy, and nothing gave me more joy than to teach little kids to chant the bruchas, and the haftorah and the maftir.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  But they were chanting it there?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  Oh, yes.  I taught those things.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Because in most classrooms…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  There was an — absolutely not.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  …it was forbidden.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=6616.0,6658.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/34541/annotation/349","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"HERMAN BERLINSKI:  It was forbidden.  Just the same, as I introduced \tthe shofar, that’s why I composed a shofar service.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  You mean, instead of the trumpet?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eBARRY SEROTA:  Or the stop on the organ.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  You, you, you know that, you know the Mishna a \u003cbr\u003elittle bit.  You know, the Mishna says, very clearly, on Rosh Hashanah, the shofar and two trumpets overlaid with gold; and the shalosh regolim, the shofar and two trumpets overlaid with silver.  So, I wrote a shofar service, a shofar and two trumpets overlaid with brass, but the…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  And the shofar service has been recorded?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  No.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  We’re going to record that.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=6658.0,6690.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/34541/annotation/350","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"HERMAN BERLINSKI:  That is a very nice service.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  For the organ, of course.  That’s…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  That’s all.  That’s organ, two trumpets.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  And, in any case, I earned my keep as a bar mitzvah teacher. However, what happened is that the, the next generation were no, no more Germans.  The German immigration had stopped, and the next generation was Eastern.  And there were, we had families who legitimately — I mean, it’s, they said, “We want a cantor on the pulpit.  We don’t want a non-Jew to come up there singing us the Shema Yisrael. And I, coming from Eastern European stock, ideologically and sentimentally, could have no argument against it.  I, I wasn’t offended by this.  I enjoyed an imperial position at, at the Washington Hebrew Congregation.  It’s an uncontested rule.  But at the same time, I sat down, I said, if they want a cantor, there’s nothing you can do about it.  So finally, when, when the situation became, when I had reached retirement age — two years above — when I was 67, the question came very close, “We want you to go.”","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=6690.0,6766.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/34541/annotation/351","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"HERMAN BERLINSKI:  I mean, they, they didn’t fire me.  They gave me a very, very generous settle — I had no retirement contract.  Not, not a single piece of paper which, which would oblige them to pay me a nickel.  And after long haggling and so, did they give me a very dignified retirement pension, including my wife.  And I couldn’t live the life I live now if it were not for the Washington Hebrew Congregation.  And I still live on that, you know.  And they treated me well, in this instance. But a cantor came.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Well, the cantor came, but you still need an organist, and a music director.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=6766.0,6799.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/34541/annotation/352","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"HERMAN BERLINSKI:  Well, look — let’s, let’s speak \u003cINAUDIBLE\u003e.  I, my last salary in 1979 was $18,500.  That was my last salary, the highest.  I was replaced with an organist who got $3,000.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  And who directed the music, the choir, the concerts?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  And they, the, the cantor became director of music.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Oh, the cantor.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  He, he got in with, between $35,000 and $38,000.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Tell me about the concerts you used to do at, annually, around Hanukkah time — you know, at the Cathedral?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=6799.0,6826.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/34541/annotation/353","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"HERMAN BERLINSKI:  Well, you mean the Kennedy Center?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Well, I’m not sure.  First it was — did you do some at the Washington Cathedral or the National Cathedral?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  Well, we, there, there are two, types of concerts that was active until quite a few years ago now.  And when I had left the Washington Hebrew Congregation, I felt a tremendous void.  I had been accustomed to, to, to conduct, and I had been accustomed to do new things, and I had been accustomed to compose on Monday and perform it on Friday — you understand? And so, a wealthy patron of the Washington Hebrew Congregation and, also, Mrs. Gerstenfeld, the widow of, of the rabbi, gave me some money to form my own choir.  And we formed the choir, Shir Chadash, which was a professional choir.  We had some, some 16 people there, with a few talented people who sang with me already at the Washington Hebrew Congregation. And we, we performed anything from Rossi to Schoenberg.  And our major objects were twofold.  Every year, we did a major concert at Hanukkah time, at the Kennedy Center, which were sponsored by the city and, and supported by the Kennedy Center administration.  And every, between Rosh Hashanah and Yom Kippur, we did a concert for the High Holidays, for the non-Jewish community. And we had sometimes over a thousand people coming there.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=6826.0,6906.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/34541/annotation/354","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"NEIL LEVIN:  This was all sponsored, underwritten?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  And, and that was, partially, I got the money from, from wealthy patrons of the congregation.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  So, what happened?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  And partially…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  It doesn’t happen anymore, now?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  No.  I had, I had to dissolve it.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Why?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  I got old.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  And so, why didn’t someone else take it over?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  I didn’t have anyone in Washington.  I would have loved to.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  No protégé who could take it over?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  I had none, nobody there who, who would have assisted me, first, and then take it.  But I would have loved it. I told, I did, I still have the, the conducting baton of Saminsky with his name engraved in it.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  What would it take to revive that annual thing, that tradition?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=6906.0,6941.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/34541/annotation/355","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"HERMAN BERLINSKI:  Let me tell you that, that the Kennedy Center, at that time, was given over to a Black man, who considered me an ethnic minority.  And he wanted to have the farbrengen people coming in.  And he, he, he went down to the lowest denominator. We had wonderful programs — very classy.  We, we did always, a good portion of Handel’s Judas Maccabeus, as backbone, and then, we added a lot of Jewish…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  So, okay.  Are you telling me that it would be…today it would be difficult to do that kind of thing?\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  The farbrengen don’t even get the concerts anymore. They come in and do a little in the foyer when people walk by, and do a little bit Hanukkah…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  You…you wouldn’t be able to do…do, how about in the cathedral?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=6941.0,6994.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/34541/annotation/356","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:\u003c/strong\u003e I don’t have the guts anymore to do it; raise the money for it. And the cathedral, I had a heart attack right in the middle of the concert, the last concert, and went to the hospital.  And at that time, I wound up with a fourfold, four-bypass operation. And the next year, The Cathedral also went back to the, to the farbrengen people, they, they got a new New York orchestra.  But they, they discontinued.  Today, there is no Jewish music anymore played at the Cathedral.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=6994.0,7020.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/34541/annotation/357","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"NEIL LEVIN:  To move to a kind of general statement, we’ve talked about a lot of pieces of yours.  And I think we’ve got some interesting information about a lot of pieces.  But if you had to give a general description of your technique, of your style — I mean, you’re not a serial, 12-tone composer, in the classic sense.  Or maybe you were, at one time.  Did you go through that period?  But what, what kind of approach…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  Well …\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  …do you think applies to your music?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  You want it in one sentence?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  No.  Five sentences.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=7020.0,7050.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/34541/annotation/358","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:\u003c/strong\u003e I called last week a girl in Dresden who sings in the choir.  And I asked her, “How are the rehearsals of Job going?” And she said, “Well, we have done your stuff before.  It’s Berlinski.  It’s Berlinski.” And, and, and it sums it up. I, I most probably have evolved into a style which, which, which bears my brand name.  If you want to decompose it into, I would have to, to tell you, for a man who has — the first year of conservatory in Leipzig, you play nothing but Bach to such a point that it is etched in your skin and your mind and your fingers, until there is, you never get rid of it, the rest of your life.  You think in polyphonic, polyphonic terms, whether you like it or not. Now, essentially, Jewish music is not, by nature, polyphonic.  And so, you have to find your way how the polyphonic element can — it becomes, very often, heterophonic.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=7050.0,7110.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/34541/annotation/359","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"HERMAN BERLINSKI:  The Leipzig school went from the romantic — to Brahms, who still is a presence in Leipzig — to Max Reger, who was very, very, chromatic — contrapuntal things.  He made a deep influence on me. Some Germans feel that Max Reger still spooks in my work.  That there are some elements to me that, some Germans feel that, that I could not have written the music without having been exposed. And I played a lot of Reger.  Indeed, my, my concert license, I played the famous Telemann scene, by, Reger.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Now…","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=7110.0,7146.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/34541/annotation/360","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"HERMAN BERLINSKI:  And that came, that came to nil, when I came to Nadia Boulanger.  And the first thing they told me, she said, “Throw all this Teutonic boredom out.  We have to clean that out, all the way.  It’s nothing.  It’s no good.  The Leipzig school is a thing of the past.” And then, we were exposed to Stravinsky, and to the French school.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  What would you say, on your pieces, whether the organ pieces or the large choral pieces — I mean, you have some very dramatic works.  What would you say that the major influence, in terms of other composers, were?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=7146.0,7176.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/34541/annotation/361","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:\u003c/strong\u003e Well, there are, there are, depending on where I come from.  And let me also say this — when composers speak about their own work, take it with a word of caution, because the composers are the last people to know what motivates them, and how, how the creative process really works, you understand. I see traces, definitely, of Max Reger.  And he’s not a great composer, here, considered.  Still, he is a composer who, who has some importance. I, I see, I do not conceive any work which does not come from an inner voice that means that I can sing it.  Even if it’s atonal, it must still come from the homophone line.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=7176.0,7214.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/34541/annotation/362","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"HERMAN BERLINSKI:  And the fact that I studied quite a few years with Max Wohlberg has made a very deep-lasting, impregnation of my own thinking.  I cannot think of a melody which does not, in way or the other way, reflects this, this, by osmosis — what do I want to say? — absorption of Jewish materials. Can I ever get rid of it?  How my father chanted the Haggadah?  And my father chanted it in a typical, typical East European manner.  And even we came back from Carlebach and sang the, the, the melodies which we sang, where we were taught at school, and my father said, “What kind of goyim nachis are you singing there?”\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Is there, for example, let’s return to Avodat Shabbat.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  The Friday night service.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Do you make use of any traditional musical material?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=7214.0,7274.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/34541/annotation/363","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:\u003c/strong\u003e I use, I make use of two elements.  One was that I tried to get a harmonic structure which does justice to the modal character of the melody.  The opening Ma Tovu is definitely in the, out of the  Adonai Malach mode — you understand? And then, the, the open fourth, the, the, the refusal of using just simple triads as turning to dominant, sub-dominant, but going to the modal scheme.  That comes both, on the one side, Yossel, and on the other, Isidore Fried, also, is shown. Isidore Fried, more conventional than I did it, there, because Isidore Fried did try to do, to fit the modal scheme into a perfectly consonant motion that makes this music very delightful, but also, very bland, at the same time, you know, very digestible.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=7274.0,7327.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/34541/annotation/364","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"HERMAN BERLINSKI:  I went one step further and said, this modal scheme has built-in dissonances.  And these built-in dissonances actually give that more character — a, a, something of a stronger masculinity.  And that is in Avodat Shabbat there. The traditional melody which I used is in the L’kha Dodi, which is a Portuguese melody.  (Hums a little of it) And if I were to do it today, again, I would, would most probably treat it differently.  I would treat it differently.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Did the, would you consider yourself, I mean, a tonal composer or an atonal composer?  Or is there no such thing as an atonal?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=7327.0,7375.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/34541/annotation/365","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"HERMAN BERLINSKI:  Well, yes.  The 12-tone is definitely a tonality is it…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  I didn’t say 12-tone; I said atonal.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:  Yeah, yeah.  And I consider myself a composer who considered consonance and dissonance as the two poles, a two, two-polar system which, which, together, amounted to the musical idiom.  That is the language. It consists — like, I am not a black composer; I am not a white composer.  It’s, it’s black and white, which are the two different colors. I consider dissonance, still, as an expression of inner tension.  And you can go from dissonance to dissonance and, and intensify the density of your dissonant writing.  But there is no work of mine, and I don’t, can’t, can’t think of one, where a consonance in the solution does not play a very important role.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=7375.0,7429.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784/transcript/34541/annotation/366","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eHERMAN BERLINSKI:\u003c/strong\u003e And if you listen to the Symphony for Cello and Organ, a very, very, very dissonant work, but with very many, many consonant elements there. So, it’s not an element — dissonant or not dissonant, or tonal or not tonal.  They are both elements.  The tonality is the, the polarity to atonality.  It is the opposite of atonality.  But one does not go without the other one.  The both elements must work together.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAnd I’m not doing this out of a complement — I’m doing this out of natural inclination.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39410/file/110784#t=7429.0,7472.53333"}]}]}]}