{"@context":"http://iiif.io/api/presentation/3/context.json","id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/iiif/w08w951f3n/manifest","type":"Manifest","label":{"en":["Ran, Shulamit"]},"logo":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/organizations/logo_images/000/000/115/original/Boxed_Milken_Center_logo.png?1628711583","metadata":[{"label":{"en":["Preferred Citation"]},"value":{"en":["\u003cp\u003eRan, Shulamit. 1997. Interview by Neil W. Levin. Milken Archive Oral History Project. 19 August.\u003c/p\u003e"]}},{"label":{"en":["Publisher"]},"value":{"en":["Milken Family Foundation"]}},{"label":{"en":["Rights Statement"]},"value":{"en":["\u003cp\u003e© Milken Family Foundation. Unauthorized use is prohibited. For inquiries, please contact info@milkenarchive.org.\u003c/p\u003e"]}},{"label":{"en":["Agent"]},"value":{"en":["Ran, Shulamit (Composer)","Levin, Neil W. (Interviewer)"]}},{"label":{"en":["Date"]},"value":{"en":["1997-08-19"]}},{"label":{"en":["Coverage"]},"value":{"en":["Chicago, IL (Place of Recording)"]}},{"label":{"en":["Language"]},"value":{"en":["English (Primary)"]}},{"label":{"en":["Description"]},"value":{"en":["\u003cp\u003eOral history with Shulamit Ran in which she details the genesis of her opera \u003cem\u003eBetween Two Worlds (The Dybbuk)\u003c/em\u003e (1997) and her compositional process in writing this piece. Also discussed are other compositions such as \u003cem\u003eO the Chimneys\u003c/em\u003e (1969), her experience writing Jewish liturgical music, and her thoughts on what it means to be a woman composer.\u003c/p\u003e"]}},{"label":{"en":["Format"]},"value":{"en":["Beta SP"]}},{"label":{"en":["Subject"]},"value":{"en":["Ran, Shulamit, 1949- (Person or Corporate Body)","Lyric Opera of Chicago (Person or Corporate Body)","Oral Histories (genre/form)","Jews — Music (Topical Term)","Opera--20th century. (Topical Term)"]}},{"label":{"en":["Keyword"]},"value":{"en":["Adonai Malach (mode), Between Two Worlds (opera), Bruno Bartoletti, cantor, dybbuk, gender, Hugo Weisgall (1912-1997), Lyric Opera of Chicago, Mannes College of Music, Miriam Gideon (1906-1996), Nelly Sachs (1891-1970), O the Chimneys (chamber), opera, pedagogy, synagogue, University of Chicago"]}}],"summary":{"en":["\u003cp\u003eOral history with Shulamit Ran in which she details the genesis of her opera \u003cem\u003eBetween Two Worlds (The Dybbuk)\u003c/em\u003e (1997) and her compositional process in writing this piece. Also discussed are other compositions such as \u003cem\u003eO the Chimneys\u003c/em\u003e (1969), her experience writing Jewish liturgical music, and her thoughts on what it means to be a woman composer.\u003c/p\u003e"]},"requiredStatement":{"label":{"en":["Attribution"]},"value":{"en":["\u003cp\u003e\u0026copy; Milken Family Foundation. Unauthorized use is prohibited. For inquiries, please contact info@milkenarchive.org.\u003c/p\u003e"]}},"provider":[{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/aboutus","type":"Agent","label":{"en":["Lowell Milken Center for Music of American Jewish Experience"]},"homepage":[{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/","type":"Text","label":{"en":["Lowell Milken Center for Music of American Jewish Experience"]},"format":"text/html"}],"logo":[{"id":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/organizations/logo_images/000/000/115/original/Boxed_Milken_Center_logo.png?1628711583","type":"Image"}]}],"thumbnail":[{"id":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/collection_resource_files/thumbnails/000/111/926/small/Ran.jpg?1621947509","type":"Image","format":"image/jpeg"}],"items":[{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40261/file/111926","type":"Canvas","label":{"en":["Media File 1 of 1 - B19249_MA_OH_Shulamit_Ran_Master.mp4"]},"duration":1449.856,"width":640,"height":360,"thumbnail":[{"id":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/collection_resource_files/thumbnails/000/111/926/small/Ran.jpg?1621947509","type":"Image","format":"image/jpeg"}],"items":[{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40261/file/111926/content/1","type":"AnnotationPage","items":[{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40261/file/111926/content/1/annotation/1","type":"Annotation","motivation":"painting","body":{"id":"https://aviary-p-milken.s3.wasabisys.com/collection_resource_files/resource_files/000/111/926/original/B19249_MA_OH_Shulamit_Ran_Master.mp4?1619689144","type":"Video","format":"video/mp4","duration":1449.856,"width":640,"height":360},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40261/file/111926","metadata":[]}]}],"annotations":[{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40261/file/111926/transcript/25007","type":"AnnotationPage","label":{"en":["AUTO_TRINT_Shulamit Ran [Transcript]"]},"items":[{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40261/file/111926/transcript/25007/annotation/1","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"LEVIN: Shulamit, we're sitting here in the University of Chicago, which is your also your alma mater. Am I correct? \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eRAN: No, it's not, actually.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN: No?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eRAN: No\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN: Now, your doctorate is not from here?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eRAN: No, I've been here for quite a while. That was not a student here.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN: Where did you study?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40261/file/111926#t=16.0,34.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40261/file/111926/transcript/25007/annotation/2","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"RAN: I went to the Mannes College of Music in New York.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN: In New York? \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eRAN: Yes. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN: And...\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eRAN: And prior to that in Israel.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN: And who were your teachers? \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eRAN: My teachers at Mannes were Norman Dello Joio and in Israel I studied with Alexander, Uriah Boskowich and then with Paul Ben-Haim. I think I know though, what your assumption is coming from, and that is that I did for a while study with Ralph Shapey here at the University, though I should qualify that this was already after having taken up a position here and being an assistant professor at that time and Ralph and myself, having common students and hearing about some of the very interesting things that he does pedagogically. And they say one day, Ralph, how about teaching me? And so for about nine months, I was a student. And maybe this is where the link that you had in mind...","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40261/file/111926#t=34.0,82.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40261/file/111926/transcript/25007/annotation/3","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"LEVIN: I thought that was as a doctoral candidate because when I heard your piece played at one of the Mandel Hall concerts, I thought that was as a doctoral candidate.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eRAN: No, no.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN: I see, I just assumed\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eRAN: I had many, many students who are doctoral candidates have their pieces done by the CCP, for the Contemporary German players, and we work on the pieces together, but no.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN: So there you are. There you are. Tell me I see a sign here even on the bulletin board and this is a subject that comes up all over. The various competitions and various write ups about, quote unquote, \"woman composers\". Now how do you...","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40261/file/111926#t=82.0,118.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40261/file/111926/transcript/25007/annotation/4","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"RAN: Notice the expression on my face?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN: How do you fit into this? Are you, what is a woman composer? \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eRAN: Well, I have no idea I know what a woman is, at least I think I do, and I know what a composer is.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40261/file/111926#t=118.0,130.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40261/file/111926/transcript/25007/annotation/5","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eRAN:\u003c/strong\u003e I try at least to have some sense of what that is. And I have no idea what the two have to do with one another. Well, I suppose everything that we are in some way is reflected in our art. So you could make the point that being a woman is in some way a part of whatever I produce, in the same sense that being Israeli and a Jew and maybe blue eyed and left handed and who knows what else are part of what makes that particular person. But really, I do not think of music as being typed by gender. I find that whole topic to be not particularly interesting, actually.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40261/file/111926#t=130.0,174.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40261/file/111926/transcript/25007/annotation/6","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eRAN:\u003c/strong\u003e I'd like to write the best music that I possibly can. And when every once in a while a young woman comes to me, a student, and wants to talk about that aspect of being a woman, I said to her, just don't worry about it. Just write the music and the rest will take care of itself.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40261/file/111926#t=174.0,193.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40261/file/111926/transcript/25007/annotation/7","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eRAN:\u003c/strong\u003e I also I really, really have a problem with the idea of these categories, as are we in some way going to accept that there is a call on the one hand, a class of composers, as in Beethovens and on the other hand a class of composers, as in women composers. That to me is really, really derogatory. I do not like to be thinking in those terms. So not a subject that has ever held a great deal of fascination for me.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40261/file/111926#t=193.0,220.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40261/file/111926/transcript/25007/annotation/8","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eLEVIN:\u003c/strong\u003e But you've answered it very well because I asked you that because one of my former colleagues, Miriam Gideon, used to refuse to allow her pieces to be played on any program that called itself \"women composers.\" Now that she's dead and has no children or heirs to, to control the situation, in locally, and small concerts in New York, it's the top of the list on women composer concerts.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40261/file/111926#t=220.0,241.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40261/file/111926/transcript/25007/annotation/9","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"LEVIN: And I know that she would be turning in her grave. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eRAN: I actually I've never taken that extreme position because to me, the idea of avoiding a concert because it is made up of woman's music isn't quite well, it doesn't quite suit my way of looking at things either. Music should fit wherever there are people who want to play it and people who want to listen to it. But I've certainly not gone out of my way at all to seek out being performed in, quote unquote, woman's concert situations and really I'm not...","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40261/file/111926#t=241.0,275.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40261/file/111926/transcript/25007/annotation/10","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eLEVIN:\u003c/strong\u003e And of course, you haven't you haven't needed it because you had some marvelous performances. I want to ask you before I talk about the opera, about the was it a commission from Milwaukee quite a number of years back for that piece for the synagogue?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40261/file/111926#t=275.0,295.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40261/file/111926/transcript/25007/annotation/11","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"RAN: Right. Yeah that was an interesting project actually of \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN: It was a cantor Eichaker, Eicker. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003e RAN: No, yes","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40261/file/111926#t=295.0,309.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40261/file/111926/transcript/25007/annotation/12","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"LEVIN: Administratively. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003e RAN: The person who administrated the entire project, yes that is right. And it was really quite interesting. They had chosen a group of composers and matched them up with cantors and then each pair was to work on some piece of text that was assigned. And then all the composers and the cantors were gathered together in Milwaukee for a three-day conference and there was a lot of interesting discussion and a performance of the music that was working.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40261/file/111926#t=309.0,338.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40261/file/111926/transcript/25007/annotation/13","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eRAN:\u003c/strong\u003e And my cantor was Edward Lubin, who at that time was actually a doctoral student here at the University of Chicago, for three days drove back and forth from Chicago to Milwaukee. Had a wonderful time talking about various issues and I ended up asking him to be, to officiate my marriage actually, which he did. Yeah he's a wonderful cantor.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40261/file/111926#t=338.0,357.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40261/file/111926/transcript/25007/annotation/14","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"RAN: And we had fun working on this project. It was an interesting thing\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN: Now was this the first time that you wrote anything for the synagogue? \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eRAN: Yes. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN: First liturgical piece. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eRAN: Yes. Yes. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN: How did you treat it? I mean, how did you deal with it? Was it, the text, of course, you know, because it's what was it? The psalms text, wasn't it?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40261/file/111926#t=357.0,376.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40261/file/111926/transcript/25007/annotation/15","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eRAN:\u003c/strong\u003e Well the text was Adonai Malach mode. And I'd done a little bit of study about it and found out that there is, in fact, an Adonai Malach mode. And so I decided that it would be interesting in the sense that it is sometimes interesting to approach a piece of music as a as an exercise in a sense that you give yourself a challenge, an assignment, something to work with and work against it, also. Boundaries of some kind, as Stravinsky said, and did many composers. That's where there are boundaries. That's when the imagination starts to flow.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40261/file/111926#t=376.0,411.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40261/file/111926/transcript/25007/annotation/16","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eRAN:\u003c/strong\u003e And so I decided to adapt that Adonai Malach mode to use it in the piece, but at the same time, to find a way of still having my own style, such as it is, whatever voice is characteristic of me. So it was interesting to try and reconcile those two things. The mode, of course, is grounded in tonality, though more modal and a particular kind of a way there is a major third but a minor tenth, which is interesting.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40261/file/111926#t=411.0,442.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40261/file/111926/transcript/25007/annotation/17","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"And so I wrote the piece for a cantor, for Horn and for woodwind trio. And I used the cantor and the horn as a pair against the trio, the woodwind trio. And so the horn and the cantor do the music that is more in a sense, grounded in the traditional aspect of the assignment, but are being answered by a much more angular, esoteric, pungent woodwind trio. You know, it was fun to do.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40261/file/111926#t=442.0,475.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40261/file/111926/transcript/25007/annotation/18","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"RAN: I had fun with it. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN: And this was performed at this conference that was performed at this conference? \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eRAN: It was performed at this conference. Yeah, and since then had a number of other performances as well.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN: Now, after that, you never wrote anything for the synagogue yet?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40261/file/111926#t=475.0,487.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40261/file/111926/transcript/25007/annotation/19","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eRAN:\u003c/strong\u003e No, I haven't. Every once in a while when I think of my wish list for things to do in this wish list keeps growing and growing. And I have the feeling that most of it will remain in the realm of a wish list. But every once in a while I say to myself, well, doing a service might be interesting, but on the other hand, I'll confess to and say that it's probably not one of the first three ideas on the wishlist","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40261/file/111926#t=487.0,512.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40261/file/111926/transcript/25007/annotation/20","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"LEVIN: Unless...\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eRAN: But it's something that would be fun to do, someday. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN: What would happen if you were commissioned, on the other hand, to write a piece for the synagogue? \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eRAN: Well...\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN: I should add a serious piece, a serious piece, not a functional piece. I mean, not a...\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eRAN: I can't say at this point because at this point, there are numerous things that I to do and know, most things that I feel most strongly that I want to do. But someday. And it is not necessarily a function of whether I'm commissioned or not. I've done some crazy things every once in a while. I do something just because I want to do it. So really, it's not a matter that I'm waiting for commission, though.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40261/file/111926#t=512.0,549.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40261/file/111926/transcript/25007/annotation/21","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"RAN: On the other hand, the sense of there being a performance, of course, is very important. The sense that you're writing not just for yourself, but for a living situation. But anyway, that's music for the far future. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN: Now, of course, I want to talk to you about, about your recent opera, which is called Between Two Worlds \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eRAN: Between Two Worlds, yes. In parentheses, The Dybbuk.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40261/file/111926#t=549.0,573.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40261/file/111926/transcript/25007/annotation/22","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"LEVIN: The Dybbuk. This is what? I don't know if you have any idea. I don't exactly. It's the fourth, fifth, sixth, seventh time that somebody has treated the, in some way, the Dybbuk story.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eRAN: Actually, I'm being told, someone had told me that he saw in an anthology that there already are 11 Dybbuk operas that does not include other work, such as Bernstein's ballet, The Dybbuk.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40261/file/111926#t=573.0,595.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40261/file/111926/transcript/25007/annotation/23","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"LEVIN: I mean, I know I'm not- yeah, I'm just talking about operas...\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eRAN: Yes\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN: Because I can think of so-called cantatas and so-called other things. I mean. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eRAN: Yeah. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN: But even just operas, yeah. I'm not surprised. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eRAN: Yeah, yeah. Yes, it's well it's a fantastic subject. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN: Well how did this come about? This this subject matter. How did that...","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40261/file/111926#t=595.0,613.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40261/file/111926/transcript/25007/annotation/24","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eRAN:\u003c/strong\u003e Well, I'll tell you. First of all, I wanted to write an opera for quite a while. I'd say for at least 15 years I've been toying in my mind back and forth with the idea of something, writing an opera when people would ask me, what do you want to do that you haven't done yet? The first thought that would come out of my mouth would be, \"write an opera.\" And the one thing that I knew about the opera, whatever that would be, is that it would have to do something with my own heritage, my own sense of who I am and would have to be in some way connected to being a Jew or an Israeli or both, whatever.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40261/file/111926#t=613.0,649.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40261/file/111926/transcript/25007/annotation/25","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eRAN:\u003c/strong\u003e And at a certain point, about five years ago, I started saying to myself, all the time has come to not just talk about this in some kind of a vague idea, but actually set some time, block out some time, which meant starting to say that difficult word, \"no\" when there is ideas of commissions and things of this kind came about, because I knew that I would need to really put aside a major chunk of time.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40261/file/111926#t=649.0,679.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40261/file/111926/transcript/25007/annotation/26","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eRAN:\u003c/strong\u003e And I was looking into various subjects. And then really, I think, quite coincidentally, I had a call from the Lyric Opera, from the offices of Ardis Krainik, the then General Director of the Opera, who of course, passed away last year.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40261/file/111926#t=679.0,697.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40261/file/111926/transcript/25007/annotation/27","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"RAN: And I was asked to send in some of my vocal music, which I did, and then was called for a meeting with Ms. Krainik and with Maestro Bruno Bartoletti, the musical director of the Lyric Opera. And we sat together and it was then that they asked me whether I would be interested to be the composer in residence of the Lyric Opera and write an opera for them. And we started talking about what might, what I might do. And somehow the subject of The Dybbuk, with which I was playing in my head for awhile, I brought that up and that just seemed to light everybody up. And this was what I wanted to do.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN: So the subject was already familiar to you, didn't? \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eRAN: Oh, yes.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN: ...have to go first search for.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40261/file/111926#t=697.0,743.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40261/file/111926/transcript/25007/annotation/28","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"RAN: No, no. Actually, this is something that is really part of me going back to my childhood. I saw the play done. I saw The Dybbuk then as a play in Israel at the Habima.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN: Now, which play because there are many, there's the Habima one.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40261/file/111926#t=743.0,756.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40261/file/111926/transcript/25007/annotation/29","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"RAN: The Ansky. The Ansky play\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN: The Ansky\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eRAN: Yes. Yeah. And I can't quite place it when I sell it, but I know that I was quite young and it left a powerful impression, an indelible impression there, especially that incredible moment where Leah, in her a beautiful white wedding dress, looking so pure, suddenly, out of her delicate body, comes this haunted voice of a man, her dead lover's, who has possessed her and shouting out of her. That was a very, very powerful moment. And it's a great story and I think has all the necessary ingredients for for an opera.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40261/file/111926#t=756.0,801.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40261/file/111926/transcript/25007/annotation/30","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"RAN: And it just seemed like something that I really, really wanted to do and something I was very familiar to me. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN: And this was just performed just this past June. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eRAN: Right, yes.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN: You spent, what? Three, four years writing it? I can't remember.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40261/file/111926#t=801.0,817.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40261/file/111926/transcript/25007/annotation/31","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"RAN: About two and a half years of solid work on it. Well, when I said solid, there were other things that I was doing. At the same time, I did not lock myself in my studio for two-and-a-half years, but I really spent a serious amount of time.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN: And the libretto? \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eRAN: The libretto is by Charles Kandek, so wonderful, wonderful librettist.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN: HE did Esther, didn't...\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eRAN: He did Hugo Weisgall's Esther, that's right. Yes. Yeah. And has, I think well, he's generally is really a man of the theater. He has a fantastic feeling for for situations theatrical, but I think also has a wonderful feeling for subjects that are involved with Jewish history and ritual and thinking. He developed a most beautiful libretto for me out of the Ansky play.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40261/file/111926#t=817.0,864.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40261/file/111926/transcript/25007/annotation/32","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"LEVIN: Now, tell me, you mentioned, borders, or boundaries, in terms of- in that case, in terms of the modes, which cantor call nusaḥ hat'fila, whatever it means. Did you set yourself any kind of boundaries in The Dybbuk?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eRAN: Well, consciously or subconsciously, I always do. The act of composing is setting up boundaries and then finding ways to deal with them and walk around them and against them and with them.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40261/file/111926#t=864.0,897.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40261/file/111926/transcript/25007/annotation/33","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"LEVIN: I mean, consciously. I mean, you set any - obviously, you didn't set yourself to any tone rows or you didn't set any particular modes for particular...\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eRAN: No,no.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN: Or any Leimotifs. But with any kind of conscious boundaries?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003e","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40261/file/111926#t=897.0,912.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40261/file/111926/transcript/25007/annotation/34","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eRAN:\u003c/strong\u003e Oh, I would have to think about it, really taking it from that particular point of view.I mean the piece presents tremendous challenges of many kinds. But for example, one element which I think would be of relevance in this particular discussion, and that definitely had a way of governing some important issues in this opera is the fact that there are numerous key places in the story, and thus, in the libretto and in what I needed to do with it.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40261/file/111926#t=912.0,948.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40261/file/111926/transcript/25007/annotation/35","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"RAN: Where there are elements of Jewish music, wedding music, music of the kind that people would associate with a Jewish wedding. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN: I mean, I was just going to ask you. You said elements of Jewish music. And I started because I said, what's that? \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eRAN: Actually, I have no idea. If you would post to me the question, what is Jewish music? Then I would probably talk for about half an hour explaining that I really don't know what that is, but I'm talking about specific functional music.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40261/file/111926#t=948.0,978.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40261/file/111926/transcript/25007/annotation/36","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eRAN:\u003c/strong\u003e This is really the only way in which I'm using the term in this case. Having to do with specific prayers, having to do with a situation of a Jewish wedding. Well, the wedding never consummated, never actually takes place. But there are a couple of points in the opera where there is almost a wedding. And those are, of course, very crucial moments. The one moment leading to the possession of Leah by The Dybbuk, and the other moment then, when there is, much later on the resumption of the would-be wedding, where she chooses to reunite with her beloved in another world.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40261/file/111926#t=978.0,1020.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40261/file/111926/transcript/25007/annotation/37","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eRAN:\u003c/strong\u003e And so. When before I started composing and as I headed towards these points, which happened a ways into the piece, I found myself asking, OK, how am I going to deal with them? And eventually I decided that really my the way that I wanted to handle them would be to write music that would immediately signal to the listener that this is a music that evokes that particular situation.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40261/file/111926#t=1020.0,1052.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40261/file/111926/transcript/25007/annotation/38","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eRAN:\u003c/strong\u003e Now, I did not quote anything just because I enjoy composing, as opposed to taking somebody else's composed music and using it. So I made up quasi-klezmer music for those situations, quasi-wedding music. There is an area where there is an Hasidic dance that evolves gradually.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40261/file/111926#t=1052.0,1072.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40261/file/111926/transcript/25007/annotation/39","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eRAN:\u003c/strong\u003e That's a very, very important moment in the libretto. It does not follow the exact path of of Ansky, though really of all the libretto is very faithful to Ansky. But in specifics, there are sometimes different paths to different points. And so there is a classical Hasidic dance where on the one hand there is that dance and the participants are becoming more and more excited and entranced and building up to this would be a wedding. But parallel to that, concurrently, Hahnan is losing his mind with grief and eventually falling down and dying so that you have these two parallel things happening. So the one side of that parallel, that Hasidic dance does evoke a positive attitude, musically speaking.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40261/file/111926#t=1072.0,1126.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40261/file/111926/transcript/25007/annotation/40","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eRAN:\u003c/strong\u003e And for me, that worked well because then it was able to juxtapose it very, very brutally at its climactic point with the other music, which, of course, is the really important music that the going mad and then eventually the death. And I found it that I decided that we really would be the most effective way of making those two dual realities happen concurrently and be juxtaposed with one another and build to the kind of climactic move that happens at that point. And then there are a couple of other points of this kind, all in really crucial places.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40261/file/111926#t=1126.0,1173.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40261/file/111926/transcript/25007/annotation/41","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eRAN:\u003c/strong\u003e And so it was in those places where I made these juxtapositions and had decided really that that would be a good way of handling musical materials throughout the piece. So that if let's say if we say that 15 percent of the music and that may be even an exaggeration, is music that evokes these particular moods, attitudes, atmospheres, whatever that people immediately associate. OK, this is the situation. The other 85 or 90 percent of whatever isn't. It is in a language that I would consider my, whatever one would want to call my language.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40261/file/111926#t=1173.0,1211.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40261/file/111926/transcript/25007/annotation/42","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"RAN: But the inter-relationship between the two and the way in which things move much further and much closer and the whole continuum in between is something that has a lot to do with the way the whole piece is structured and put together. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN: There's another piece that is related to Jewish experience, which is how I define if anybody asks what Jewish music is. I also say there is no such thing. And we use the word. I use the word because it's too clumsy to to say anything else. But there is such the music pertaining to Jewish experience and then your tracks are covered and that's what it is. So there is another piece of very important work that you did that pertains very much to Jewish experience, which is The Chimneys.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40261/file/111926#t=1211.0,1256.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40261/file/111926/transcript/25007/annotation/43","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"RAN: Oh the Chimneys\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN: Tell me a little bit about that. I mean, this is in German, in the original German.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eRAN: Right. This is based on poetry by Nelly Sachs. And I encountered this poetry when I was less than 19 in New York one day just browsing in a bookstore. And there was this stack of books that had just come in a few years earlier, Nelly Sachs won the Nobel Prize in literature and I opened the book and just happened, my eyes happened to fall on this particular poem, which in English was called A Dead Child Speaks.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40261/file/111926#t=1256.0,1291.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40261/file/111926/transcript/25007/annotation/44","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eRAN:\u003c/strong\u003e And I started to read the poem and I'll never forget that moment because, you know, with some poetry, you read a line and then you stop and then you reflect and maybe you go back and you hear it was the kind of situation where once I started to read, I had to read it absolutely to the end, to just know what happened.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40261/file/111926#t=1291.0,1311.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40261/file/111926/transcript/25007/annotation/45","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"LEVIN: This, when you saw it in the bookstore, it was in, in German or was it already translated?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eRAN: It was a dual...\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN: A dual thing. Yeah, I know the book.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eRAN: Edition, yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN: Okay, yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eRAN: Yeah. One side the German. And on the other side... \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN: Yeah, that book is called O the Chimneys... Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eRAN: Yeah, that's right. I did not actually  choose the poem called O the Chimneys, but the name is so evocative that I chose it for the title of my pieces.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN: Right. Yeah I think its the first poem in the book or something.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eRAN: Yes, yes.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN: I just want to clarify my own memory. Did she share the Nobel Prize that year with Agnon?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40261/file/111926#t=1311.0,1336.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40261/file/111926/transcript/25007/annotation/46","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"LEVIN: Yeah, because it always bothered me - not bothered me- but I just, it's kind of, that Agnon by and far was the remembered one for the Nobel Prize and the most popular, in the public imagination. Most people remember Agnon; they don't remember that the prize was shared. I don't know why that is. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eRAN: I think probably, poetry is one art form that has fewer subscribers and maybe that has something to do with that, you know.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN: But Agnon's stories aren't so easily understood either. But...\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eRAN: Right. Right, yes\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN: OK, anyhow. So -\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eRAN: Anyways, it is incredible poetry, very, very powerful. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN: Was this a commission? \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eRAN: No, no.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40261/file/111926#t=1336.0,1369.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40261/file/111926/transcript/25007/annotation/47","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"LEVIN: This was just something.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eRAN: Just a piece that was a commission from inside. An absolute need to do this. A desire on my part to say my private personal \"Do not forget.\" That was very, very important. And I did it through this piece. And the, the poetry is just so incredible. A little while back, I went back to the book and leafed through it and found so many treasures there, so many things that need to be said, that need to be said, that need me to be remembered. It's amazing that of all after all these years, I wrote my piece in 1969- that who would have guessed that in this day and age, there will be so many people denying that the Holocaust ever existed, revising history that I think I would have not anticipated at that time.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN: There is a, another one I would, I would place as my personal candidate for your next piece.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40261/file/111926#t=1369.0,1421.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40261/file/111926/transcript/25007/annotation/48","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"LEVIN: If you ever want to do more than I'd like, it very much is the one that in English is called We the Rescued. It's in that book, too. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eRAN: I will look at it.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN: It's a wonderful poem.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eRAN: I will look at it, yes\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN: I've used it in, as narration for something I was doing. Not set to music. But it would be a wonderful thing like that. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eRAN: Yeah. Yeah. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eLEVIN: OK, I think we're finished.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/40261/file/111926#t=1421.0,1449.856"}]}]}]}