{"@context":"http://iiif.io/api/presentation/3/context.json","id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/iiif/z02z31pb8t/manifest","type":"Manifest","label":{"en":["Blackman, Julius and Nathan Katzman (1 of 2)"]},"logo":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/organizations/logo_images/000/000/115/original/Boxed_Milken_Center_logo.png?1628711583","metadata":[],"provider":[{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/aboutus","type":"Agent","label":{"en":["Lowell Milken Center for Music of American Jewish Experience"]},"homepage":[{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/","type":"Text","label":{"en":["Lowell Milken Center for Music of American Jewish Experience"]},"format":"text/html"}],"logo":[{"id":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/organizations/logo_images/000/000/115/original/Boxed_Milken_Center_logo.png?1628711583","type":"Image"}]}],"thumbnail":[{"id":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/collection_resource_files/thumbnails/000/110/841/small/JuliusBlackman-NathanKatzman.jpg?1618940807","type":"Image","format":"image/jpeg"}],"items":[{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841","type":"Canvas","label":{"en":["Media File 1 of 1 - X2358_Blackman_Julius_and_Katzman_Nathan.mp4"]},"duration":13564.3508,"width":640,"height":360,"thumbnail":[{"id":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/collection_resource_files/thumbnails/000/110/841/small/JuliusBlackman-NathanKatzman.jpg?1618940807","type":"Image","format":"image/jpeg"}],"items":[{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/content/1","type":"AnnotationPage","items":[{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/content/1/annotation/1","type":"Annotation","motivation":"painting","body":{"id":"https://aviary-p-milken.s3.wasabisys.com/collection_resource_files/resource_files/000/110/841/original/X2358_Blackman_Julius_and_Katzman_Nathan.mp4?1616509361","type":"Video","format":"video/mp4","duration":13564.3508,"width":640,"height":360},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841","metadata":[]}]}],"annotations":[{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368","type":"AnnotationPage","label":{"en":["Edited Transcript [Transcript]"]},"items":[{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/1","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"NEIL LEVIN:  Okay. All right. Hazzanim, we were -- we were talking about Chicago days still. We're deeply entrenched in Chicago. And you were both -- you were both in Chicago. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003e JULIUS BLACKMAN:  Right. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Yes. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  You were both at the same overlapping period, right? \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  At the same time, I think. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Approximately. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Approximately the same time. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  I came in '38 to -- to B'nai Zion from Montreal, Canada.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=15.0,34.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/2","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"NEIL LEVIN:  You know B'nai Zion -- I don’t know if I told you this -- B'nai Zion is now folding altogether. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Finished? \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  No kidding. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  They're bank… -- what do you call that? They're closing. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Is that right? \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Yeah. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  On Pratt Boulevard. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Yeah. Completely. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  I sang in that show when Ben Pollock conducted, I think. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  In the choir? \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  I sang the baritone solo in that choir.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=34.0,51.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/3","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"NEIL LEVIN:  And you came in '38 and you stayed for '38 until..\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Well I -- I was born in Chicago. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Until when? \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Huh? \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Until when? '38 until -- until when? \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  '38 until '45. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  And that's -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  So dur- -- so during the war years. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Yes. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  You spent in Chicago. And -- and you were there. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  I too. I was born there and I left Chicago in '45. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  '45. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  July '45. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  So you were there all the same time. Yeah.  \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Yeah.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=51.0,69.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/4","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"NEIL LEVIN:  Yeah. Yeah. Now, you were telling me about the -- about the concert in the park. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Oh, yeah. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  That -- where you did the Beethoven 9th. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  They did the 4th movement from the Beethoven 9th and I did the -- the baritone solo from the 4th movement from the Beethoven 9th. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  When was -- that was when? \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  It was around 1942 or 1943, I think. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  It was right during the middle of the war. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  It was the middle of the war. Yeah. Yeah. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  And who -- who conducted then? You remember? \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  I don’t remember. I think a fellow by the name of Bob Wolfe. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Uh-huh. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  If that name means any -- he later became a psychologist.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=69.0,102.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/5","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"NEIL LEVIN:  And at that time, you were a cantor at a -- at a particular synagogue or you were -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  I was at the Mizpah Temple in -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Right. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  -- in Rogers Park. I just started with -- I was a soloist. I sang with the choir. I was in the back. They had a quartet and a -- and an organ. Abba Leifer was the organist. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Oh, yeah. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003e JULIUS BLACKMAN:  You know Abba Leifer.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=102.0,120.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/6","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"NEIL LEVIN:  Yeah. I don’t know if he's still -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  I think he passed away -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Did he pass away? \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  -- a few years ago. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Uh-huh. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  But he was the organist there. And I came and I would sing the baritone solo. But for Kiddush, I would put on a robe and go down and -- and get in the front and make Kiddush from the front of the congregation. Then when I left in '45, they offered me a contract to be their cantor. Officially, I would be their cantor, but by now I was coming to San Franc- -- to Los Angeles.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=120.0,144.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/7","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"NEIL LEVIN:  Uh-huh. And you -- you had an opportunity to sing in -- in Grant Park. What was the story? \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Yes. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  What was the story there? \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  The story was there that I knew Danny Newman, who was the public relations man for many, many years with the -- the Civic Opera. Still is. And he was a very dear friend. And so I said, oh, would I like to do a concert, you know, in the Grant Park? I says it's very easy. And he talked to  had this kind of -- was familiar to you.  \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Samuel .\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Conductor. And yes. And this orchestra. And came back and said yes and I auditioned for it and everything was fine. And then we had a contract. Danny made the contract, but I didn’t realize that it was the evening of the Tish- -- Tisha B'Av, you know? Of -- and I was very religious and I wouldn't accept that. But I had other opportunities. I sang at -- I'll point out to you. I have some -- like, the Marigold Gardens, you know? \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Oh, yeah. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Yes. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  In Chicago.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=144.0,212.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/8","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"NATHAN KATZMAN:  I -- yes. I appeared there. And with the orchestra and all kinds of things. And it was for the Russian Relief. I mean, American and Russia were, at that time, sort of friends, you know? Allies. And so I did the -- the several things. I did the United Nations. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Mm-hmm. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  United Nations ̶ Shostakovich ̶you know? \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  The hymn?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  The hymn. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  (SINGS) United Nations on the march with flag unfurled. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  And then -- then I -- then I did the -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  You remember the whole thing? \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Yeah. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  [Inaudible – continues singing] be a brave new world. Together came for liberty, a brave new world. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  And then I -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Then I did the Tachanka, you know? [Singing] and then some other things. And a very interesting thing happened. And then came backstage a very important person. And he says to me -- and then he says, your voice, a young man. Said, how come that you don’t sing one Yiddish number?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=212.0,273.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/9","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"So I just disregarded the question that time. I didn’t like to do anything with Yiddish. I was brought up with Hebrew from gymnasium, etcetera, from Lemberg. So, it was taboo. They said it's a bastard language, so I didn’t do it. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Even by -- even by that time in the '40s, you still didn’t sing any Yiddish? \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Very rarely. Very rare. So I – Israeli, arias, things like that. So and I just disregarded him. Lo and behold, one day I went to hear Belarsky. You know, Belarsky. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Sidor. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  And he was sensational. Sensational. It was Jewish National Fund. And I look at him and -- and I say, this is the man who came backstage? And he was outstanding. So I didn’t tell him anything. I just came over. Just felt I wanted to shake his hand, you know? So it was an interesting scene. I came -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Yeah. Yiddish art songs.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=273.0,324.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/10","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:\u003c/strong\u003e I came in '38. Maybe -- it's interesting how I -- I wound up there. I -- I'll show you the letter that I began at 18, I think, in Shaarei Tefilllah in Montreal, which was a very, very Orthodox shul. And some of the great cantors officiated there. Roitman, Steinbergen. And I -- I did get the High Holiday and I just -- then I applied for my own visa because I -- I was older.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=324.0,350.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/11","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"My father was called to replace Yossele Rosenblatt. He was there for three years, you know, at 95th Street. So, and I davened the next holiday in Erie, Pennsylvania. And whatever I made was enough for me to live. I wasn't a great spender. However, one day in Detroit, where my father happened to be a cantor, Kapov-Kagan, the president came there. And did you know Sonoclare?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  I never knew him. No. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Okay, no. He was a cantor. And I -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  He was an [inaudible.]\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  I sang, you know. And I sang with the hazzanim? I sang [inaudible]. So Kapov-Kagan says, I have a job for you. He says, in Chicago. A very big shul. And I said -- I didn’t feel like going, so I said to my father, I said, you go. I says, and finally, I want -- had to go with them.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=350.0,403.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/12","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"And I came to B'nai Zion and we met with the rabbi and they were supposed to get a cantor for $3,500, from -- his name was Yakubovich -- very famous cantor from New York. And the -- the rabbi says the -- Lassen was his name. And he said to me, what will you sing, young man? So I said, whatever you want. So he said, whatever I want? I say, yes, whatever you want.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=403.0,428.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/13","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Anyhow, I guess I made a favorable impression. And then he said, will you come on a Tuesday? And so we have -- you do with the choir. See if you can sing with the choir. So I came on Tuesday to see if I can see you with the choir, and I guess I was all right. And so they gave me the job. That's how I wound up. I was there for about seven years. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eDuring that time, I went to Beis HaMidrash LaTorah. I studied there for quite a while and I have the letters. And the -- the College of Jewish Studies, you see, where they write the","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=428.0,454.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/14","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"NEIL LEVIN:  And that time, the College of Jewish Studies was out in the west side, wasn't it? \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  No. College of Jewish studies at that time -- the Beis HaMidrash LaTorah was on the west side. But the -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  [Inaudible] \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  But the College of Jewish Studies was [inaudible] the loop. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Oh, it was already on 11th Street. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  That's right. That's right. I studied there and I -- well, anyhow, I studied there but -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Who was the -- was the choir director there at B'nai Zion?  \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Ben Pollack. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Oh, Ben Pollack was there. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Yeah. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  All right. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Outstanding. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  So that's how you -- that was how you met him. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Yes, and then he -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  To begin with. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  -- followed -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  He came here. Yeah.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=454.0,482.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/15","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"NATHAN KATZMAN:  He followed me here. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Yeah. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  He followed me to --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003e[talking over each other]\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Now, did they -- now, when you came to Chicago -- well, and this is for both of you. I mean, you were -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Yeah. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  You were there all the time, but let's take this timeframe between 1938 during the -- from 1938 to the end of the war -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Yeah. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  -- you had, aside from the people that came just for Yamim Noraim, just for the High Holidays, you had a resident hazzan. For example, Mo Silverman was there already?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=482.0,506.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/16","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"NATHAN KATZMAN:  Right. He was at my [inaudible]\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  He was there when -- when Nate was there. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  When I left. When I left. So he sang the -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  I think he came after [inaudible Sonoclare?] at Anshe Emet. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  At Anshe Emet?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Yes. Yes. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Uh-huh. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Sonaclare I sang with as a kid at Anshe Emet. And then after my voice changed and I -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Now, was there -- at that time, there was no -- this was before there was any kind of school attempted, wasn’t -- of cantorial or -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Yes. Todros. Todros Greenberg. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Todros Greenberg. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  I have a letter. He -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  That's what I want. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  -- invited me to be on that committee. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  So it was happening -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  I have the letter. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  -- during that time. During -- during the war. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Yeah. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Around that period. Yeah.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=506.0,539.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/17","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"NATHAN KATZMAN:  Well, I left -- I was there from '45 -- I mean, from '38 until '45, beginning of [inaudible.] \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  So that -- because I know there was this attempt, but I didn’t know when it was -- that's when it was. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Yes. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  During the -- during -- from -- between '38 and '45. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  He was on the south side, Todros Greenberg, as I remember.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=539.0,554.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/18","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"NEIL LEVIN:  But they started -- but that was in some way going to be connected with the College of Jewish Studies? \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Right. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Yeah. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Did they -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  I have the letter so you'll read it. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Did they actually start? Did they actually have any classes there?  \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  I -- I was not interested to accept, so I don’t know. But they -- they might. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  I don’t remember that they had classes there. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Now, most of -- who was involved in that? Todros Greenberg. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Moses Silverman. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Mo Silverman. What -- there was -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Jack Goldberg. Wasn't there a Goldberg? What was his -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Maurice Goldberg? \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Maury Goldberg. Yeah. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Oh, he was there. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Maurice. Maurice Goldberg. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Yeah. He was there at the time. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  All right. And what about somebody named Giblichman? \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Yes. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Oh, yeah. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  [Inaudible]\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Jacob Giblichman. He was out on the 72nd Street shul. I sang -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  That's -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  But High Holidays with him. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  That was -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  72nd and some -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Chapelle. No. That was when they later built it. So you mean -- was it the one where Janowski later was involved?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=554.0,603.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/19","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"NATHAN KATZMAN:  No. Janowski was [inaudible] the north side. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  No. Janowski was a Reform show KAM. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  KAM. Yeah. But he was that -- but he also had his fingers in other -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  But [inaudible] members at the conservative show in 72nd and south -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  South Side Hebrew Congregation. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  That's right. South Side Hebrew -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Was that it?  \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Yeah. Yeah. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Highly respected. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Pollack conducted the choir there and I sang in his choir with Giblichman. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Now, tell me about Giblichman. What was he like? \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Oh, he was great. Fine hazzan.  \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Yeah? \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Yeah. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  And a fine gentleman.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=603.0,629.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/20","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JULIUS BLACKMAN:  And a gentleman, yeah. Nice lyric tenor. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  He came from Vienna. I know that. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Yeah. Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  But I don’t know anything, I mean, about his Vienna years. Expect that I spoke to a grandson of his. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Oh. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Told me a story that he was -- in World War I, that he was a radio operator for the -- for the Army in -- in Austria. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Didn’t know that. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  But I can't pin down when he came to Chicago exactly. You don’t know? \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  All I know is that I sang with him at that time, I remember. I remember we were mad at him because we had Leo Low's U’vashofar Gadol, and there was a nice baritone solo in there that I was going to have. But he decided he wanted to do the [inaudible] and took the whole thing himself. And so I was mad because we didn’t get to do the Gadol.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Which is that baritone solo? Do you remember it? \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  The which -- the -- what -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  The Leo Low?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=629.0,674.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/21","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JULIUS BLACKMAN:  [Singing]. It was a nice -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  That’s the Leo Low?  \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Yeah. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  So the one that goes like this. Similar, but not exactly. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003e[All singing]","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=674.0,702.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/22","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"]NATHAN KATZMAN:  That's a baritone also. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Is that Leo Low also? \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Yeah. I think that's Low. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  No. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  No. I don’t think it's Low. Low's this -- this other one. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  That might have been [inaudible] \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Because some people have attributed that to Low, just -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  No. No. No. No. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  It's not the same. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  And then later we did the U’Netaneh Tokef that Paul (?) wrote.  \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Yeah. That's something else. Yeah. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Which is a lovely one. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  But would Giblichman -- so he, I think, was on this faculty. And Greenberg and so forth. They -- they actually started this school?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=702.0,725.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/23","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"NATHAN KATZMAN:  I don’t know. I didn’t -- didn’t bother. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Somehow, I have the feeling that Mo Silverman was involved in the formation of the --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  He was. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003e JULIUS BLACKMAN:  -- cantorial school. In fact, he was chairman of the committee. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003e NATHAN KATZMAN:  No. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  To publish --  \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Todros Greenberg. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  To publish Greenberg's works. I mean, but Mo has helped organize the school. Todros Greenberg taught. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  What about -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  I think Mo studied with him.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=725.0,745.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/24","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"NEIL LEVIN:  What about Lind? Was he there then? \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  He was there. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Joshua Lind? \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Yes. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Yeah. With the -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Did he have any -- any -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Well, he was in Albany Park, if I remember. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Yeah. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  On Ainslie or someplace. Two blocks south of Lawrence. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Tevele Cohen. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Tevele Cohen was there too. Yeah. Yeah. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Now, did you have any contact --","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=745.0,761.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/25","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"NATHAN KATZMAN:  [Inaudible] the relationship? \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Yeah. With Tevele Cohen. Let's stick with Tevele Cohen. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  With Tevele Cohen I did. Yeah. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Yeah. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  And the -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  I -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Kritz. Aaron Kritz. Very fine.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Oh, that's right. Kritz was there too. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  He was there on the -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Yeah. Yeah.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=761.0,773.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/26","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"NATHAN KATZMAN:  He was north side. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  And Tevele Cohen was a -- would you say a -- a big name in Chicago? \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Yes. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Oh, yeah. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Very. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  And -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Can I just throw in\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Yeah. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  And you can do whatever you want. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Throw it in. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  How about Gritz. Kritz, rather. Kritz, you know, got himself a home in the days when the -- no. Was it the -- the north side. The --  \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Albany Park or Rogers Park? \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  No. I'll think of the name. Anyhow -- Sheridan Road. Sheridan Road. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Sheridan Road, yeah. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Oh, well that's east Rogers Park. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  At that time. Not at that time. And -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  At that time, it was Rogers Park and there was no east or west.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=773.0,812.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/27","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"NATHAN KATZMAN:  And he began to cater to some younger people --weddings and so and so. And one of my rabbis, the assistant rabbi, Jacob Siegel, told me a story that he was called to co-officiate. And him -- Kritz, you know, this was his, you know, blessing to the married couple. He say, you should be rich and you should live on Sheridan Road like me.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003e JULIUS BLACKMAN:  Rich. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  So you have Kritz. Tevele Cohen was a -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Cohen.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  And -- and Joshua Lind.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=812.0,845.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/28","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"NATHAN KATZMAN:  You know who else? With the big voice, a very, very big man -- very big -- and -- and big heart. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  [Inaudible] what -- what section? \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Where? South side? North side? \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  I forgot. I'll -- I'll think. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  But Lind -- was Lind an important cantor yet? \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Yes.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=845.0,863.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/29","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"NEIL LEVIN:  At that day? He was. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Well, it -- it -- with his --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  And of course [inaudible Sonoclare?] \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  With the -- and [inaudible Sonoclare?] was in Chicago \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Great man. Anshe Emet. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Anshe Emet. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  How about -- well, at that time, you wouldn’t -- I'm thinking of Tevele Cohen's son, Jordan. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Jordan. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Jordan, yeah. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  No. He was not yet [inaudible] \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Not yet. He came after. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Too young. Yeah. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Bernard Brindel was just getting started, I think in those days. But he wasn’t the ca- -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  And he's still there. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Yeah. He's still there. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  He's still got his full-time job. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  He has a brother there, too, doesn’t he? \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  His brother [inaudible]. Oh, no, that's right. I'm sorry. Bernard Brindel's the brother. I thought you meant Harold Brindel. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:   Harold Brindel.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN: Harold Brindel is a -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Bernard Brindel is a composer. He was [inaudible]\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  I don’t know what ever happened to him. I don’t even know if he's still around. But Harold Brindel still -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Yeah. Harold Brindel. Yeah. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  -- is the cantor in -- in Oak Park. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Oh, he's on the north -- yeah. Oh, he's in Oak Park now? \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  For years. For many years. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  I see. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Where was he then?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=863.0,911.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/30","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JULIUS BLACKMAN:  North side. I mean Albany Park. [Inaudible] at that time. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  It's Friedman I think. Friedman. He was Friedman with the great voice and [inaudible] Rogers Park. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  No. Was he important? Freidbar? \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Friedman. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Friedman. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Friedman. No. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  And I know -- well, for example -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Well, and somebody at -- at the -- what's the one on -- on Lakeshore Drive? What's his name? Pavel -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Oh. Sholom. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  No. No.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=911.0,933.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/31","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"NEIL LEVIN:  Slavinsky. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003e JULIUS BLACKMAN:  Pavel Slavinsky. Yeah. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Slavinsky.    \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Yeah. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  He was there then. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  The Reform.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Yeah. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  At that time. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  I once filled --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Not very long.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=933.0,939.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/32","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:\u003c/strong\u003e No. I once filled in for him because he -- he got sick. And I had to come there. And the choir was way in the back -- a big show. It was confirmation and Shavuos and I came there because I -- you know, I had a [inaudible] because he was sick that day and I had to rush over. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAnd then I'm waiting there. And I have a confirmation. We did a bit and we're waiting for the confirmands to come out. Where are they going to come from? Temple Israel, wasn't it? No. Sholom. Temple Sholom. Then all of a sudden, they start the organ with the boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. You know, the processional.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=939.0,970.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/33","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"And then all of a sudden the stage goes up, comes forward. Kids come out from all four corners. There were 400 kids. It was amazing. It was a whole Hollywood production. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  This reminds me of an -- of things that I heard about. Maybe you experienced them with children. Was it during those years that they had those festivals, for example Hag ha-Bikkurim? There was some period in Chicago when that was a big thing. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Oh, yeah. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  But in Douglas Park. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Yeah. What's his name? Resnick. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Reinhart. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Resnick. Hyman Resnick. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Yeah. Hyman -- Hy Resnick was the conductor at the bureau. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  That's right. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003e JULIUS BLACKMAN:  Yeah. Yeah. I have some music of his, you know? So -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  At the Board of Jewish Education.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=970.0,1011.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/34","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JULIUS BLACKMAN:  Yeah. Yeah. I’ll tell you one story, I remember -- when was it they had the -- the World's Fair in Chicago? '38, '39?  Or maybe even earlier. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  No. It was -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  It was around '38 or '39. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  It was '38 or '39. Yeah. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Yeah. And they had a Jewish Day at the World's Fair, I remember. And then -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Reinhart. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003e","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=1011.0,1027.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/35","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:\u003c/strong\u003e And Reinhart was in charge and they had a tremendous choir -- I think a couple hundred voices. I was a -- just a youngster then and sang in that choir. And I had a -- all I remember is some place where they did this thing from [inaudible]. Princess, summon the provinces. Solitary [inaudible] the city. We were -- we were trembling then, you know, because this is for the destruction of the temple.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=1027.0,1052.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/36","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"NEIL LEVIN:  And who put that all together? That was through -- through Resnick? \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Through the Jewish community. It was put together. It was Jewish Day at the World's Fair. It was a tremendous occasion. And this was the combination. They had this pageant. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Visonsky -- the dances. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Nathan Visonsky did the -- all of the show and did the -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Who was he? \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  He was -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Pollack. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  He came from the Habima Theatre. Magnificent. In fact, when he was in LA, I got together with him. I got him a young dancer by the name of Mickey Miller who wanted to do Hasidic dances. I said Visonsky knows the Yiddish, you know, Hasidic style dance. He was very angular.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=1052.0,1083.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/37","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"So Mickey and I did a couple of concerts together, where I did Torah Mit Got and Mickey danced in the -- in the -- in the Hasidic style. I say it to the side, he interpreted a dance form taught by Visonsky -- choreographed by Visonsky. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  And chorus is there. For example, it was Halevi\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Yeah. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  -- in existence here. Did you ever sing with -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Resnick. Resnick. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Resnick [inaudible]. Did you ever sing with Halevi? \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  No. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  I did. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  You sang with Halevi.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Well, for big affairs. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  I mean as a soloist, I'm talking about. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Yeah. Well, small solos. I was not a -- at that time, I was just -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Did you know the JPI? \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  -- singer. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  They had their own chorus? \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  JPI? \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  The JPI had a separate chorus? \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  No. Yeah. Ben Pollack's.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=1083.0,1120.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/38","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JULIUS BLACKMAN:  Yeah. Ben Pollack conducted there. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  And [inaudible]\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  They used to have evenings on the roof. Remember, they had -- you did concerts on the roof, the JPI. They had the evenings on the roofs, regular concerts during the summer. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  What about -- although you weren't involved, probably, but in the Yiddish choruses? Did they have any in Chicago? Like -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Oh, yeah. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Yes. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  The Workmen's Circle? \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Yes. Ben Pollack, Der Arbeter Ring. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Oh, there was an Arbeter Ring chorus. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  There was an Arbeter Ring and there was a [inaudible]\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  There was? \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  That Mollock [ph] -- Mollock conducted. Eugene Mollock. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Right. That was the -- the real left wing. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  That was the left wing, yeah. I sang with Mollock at the time and the --","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=1120.0,1153.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/39","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"NEIL LEVIN:  And where did they -- where did they perform? Public? I mean, in big public events or -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Public auditorium on the west side mostly. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Ben Pollack did. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Yeah. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Mollock less. But Ben Pollack did a lot of the big -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Now at B'nai Zion -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Yes. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  When you were there during that period of time, you were the hazzan at B'nai Zion. Who -- do you remember who was before you? \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Yes. I'll have to think. It -- it escapes me now. He had tremendous voice. Yes. I'll think about it. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  We'll come back to it. And -- and would you say that this was a major synagogue in Chicago then? B'nai Zion.  \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Yeah. Anshe Emet and -- and B'nai Zion. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  And B'nai Zion. The two big Conservative shuls. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Yes. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  So B'nai Zion was in that category? \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003e NATHAN KATZMAN:  Yes.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=1153.0,1194.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/40","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JULIUS BLACKMAN:  Yeah. Oh, yeah. There was a big [inaudible] \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  They had a tremendous choir, you know, and the volunteer but a study quartet. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  They had a couple of professionals.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Yeah. No. A quartet. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Was it a quartet? In fact, I sang there for a little. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  And -- yes. And the -- I -- to sing there, that I will give credit to Ben Pollack. He was just marvelous. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  He was a great -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  He stood at the foot of the -- above was [inaudible] \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  [Inaudible] upstairs. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  No organ. No organ. You can't take pitch from the organ. You had to pitch yourself. You were this [inaudible] etcetera. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  They never used the organ there? \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  No. They were -- I consider it a synagogue, but very traditional. The only thing that was Conservative about them that they had mixed seating. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Mixed voices too. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  And mixed voices. Yes. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Yeah. Mixed voices in the choir. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  But they were involved, I mean, with the Jewish Theological Seminary at that time? \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Oh, yeah. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Yeah. So it was a Conservative -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Oh, yeah. Because both rabbis left. Then there was a young -- Rabbi Siegel came from the Seminary.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=1194.0,1247.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/41","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"NEIL LEVIN:  And -- but -- and Anshe Emet was further -- was more liberal; wasn't it? They had the organ then. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  They had the organ then. Now they don’t have the organ, but they had the organ then. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  No. They still use the organ now. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  They do? \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Not always. Some services they do, some they don’t. But --","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=1247.0,1258.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/42","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JULIUS BLACKMAN:  Because I've been there three or four times since in the last couple of years, whenever I go there. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Well, it's the usual thing. They try to -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Save money. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  There's no identity anymore. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Yeah. Yeah. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Nobody knows what it is. But yeah. They still -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003e JULIUS BLACKMAN:  Oh, I see. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Sometimes they try to be a little more warm, and -- but they -- but that -- even then it was -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Is that right? Yeah. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  One of the things that -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Oh, yeah. They had the organ then. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  They did, huh? \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  One of the things that bothered me. Mo Silverman was a very good-looking man and he was a fine hazzan. And I came one time to listen, actually, to him, and also Goldman who was a international -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Solomon Goldman. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Solomon Goldman. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  International.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=1258.0,1288.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/43","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JULIUS BLACKMAN:  Yeah. He was the -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  And lo and behold, I saw the hazzan, you know, Mo Silverman, in the choir loft above in Anshe Emet. And there was like a filigree, you know. You could hardly see him. The only time when he came down was for Kiddush. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Oh, that was -- so that -- so that -- in other words, it -- I know that format. I didn’t know that they had it at Anshe Emet. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Yes. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  I didn’t either. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Yes. I was -- I was there. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Yeah. Well they -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  I experience -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Well, the Reform movements started that. And that's right.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Yeah.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=1288.0,1315.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/44","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"NEIL LEVIN:  And even in a place like, you remember -- this was much after the war, although it existed before the war -- North Shore Congregation Israel. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Oh, yeah. Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  In Glencoe.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Yeah. Yeah. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Yes. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  You know? Which today is -- this is still [inaudible]. That was where there too. But that was Reform, where the --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Yeah. Yeah. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  --where the cantor couldn't be visible, and they only came down for Kiddush and for Kol Nidre.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Yeah. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  So that was --","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=1315.0,1336.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/45","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JULIUS BLACKMAN:  Well, this happened in Reform synagogues even in LA when Sol Silverman started out as a baritone soloist in LA at Temple Israel. He was just a soloist in the quartet and he gradually became the cantor. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Not only that, but it happened here in the main temple, the Reform Temple Wilshire. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Wilshire Boulevard.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  They still don’t have [inaudible] \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Something. They had an outstanding choir. George London and others were in the choir. And Magnin wouldn’t allow to a hazzan. They still don’t have a hazzan. They call them a -- a soloist. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Yeah. Well it's the same -- you know, in London. Have you ever been to -- in -- you ever been to London? To --","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=1336.0,1375.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/46","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JULIUS BLACKMAN:  Yeah. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Yes. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  To the West London Synagogue. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Yeah. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Not West London. I was -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  West London Synagogue. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Yeah. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN: Now, there -- there, what you're describing is not only still the practice. In other words, there's -- they cannot have a cantor. Everything is done invisibly from the choir loft. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  That's right.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Including Kol Nidre. Including anything that's done. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  No kidding.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  But it's worse. It's written into their constitution from -- that's 150 years -- 154 years ago. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Yeah. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  They've written into the constitution that they cannot have a hazzan. Anyone called hazzan. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  That's amazing.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=1375.0,1405.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/47","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"NEIL LEVIN:  Let alone whether he's visible or not visible. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  That's amazing. Yeah. I was in London in the other one, in the Orthodox one, which is very impressive. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Where? In -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  In -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Which one? \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Marble Arch. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Marble Arch. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Oh, Marble Arch. Yeah. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Marble Arch. Yeah. Which is a very -- a very impre- --","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=1405.0,1420.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/48","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"NEIL LEVIN:  Now, when -- so at B'nai -- in the years of B'nai Zion, for example -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Yeah. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  You were the ober-cantor, as it were. You were the hazzan. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Yeah. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Yeah. There was an assistant cantor. He was teaching the bar mitzvah. I didn’t even know how to. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  That's what I was going to ask you. You didn’t have to -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Nothing. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  -- do anything. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Nothing. Three months during the season, which meant winter months, and with the choir, at eight o'clock, and then Shabbos. And I had the six weeks -- eight weeks’ vacation. Nobody bothered me. I did nothing.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=1420.0,1450.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/49","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"You know, and this man was the assistant hazzan, so he did -- and I couldn’t get over it because I was bar mitzvah in Europe. And in Europe, all you did was on Monday or Thursday, you had to give a pilpul. You know what that is. Not in front of these -- from the Gemara, whatever it is. And had a little piece of herring and schnapps and that was it.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  [Inaudible]\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Yeah. And that -- that was it. But then when I began here when I came, I had to -- very quickly to learn. And there was music. You know, the --","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=1450.0,1480.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/50","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"NEIL LEVIN:  The American bar mitzvah business. Yeah. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Yeah. That's the business. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  They wouldn’t have me otherwise. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  But you never saw that, of course, in Europe anywhere. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  No. No. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Just [inaudible]\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  So it was a very interesting synagogue. There were a lot of intellectual people there and very fine. And they --","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=1480.0,1499.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/51","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JULIUS BLACKMAN:  You're talking about B'nai Zion. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  B'nai Zion. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Yeah. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Very fine. High class. Very, very fine congregation. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  That soprano. She was a lovely soprano. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  [Inaudible] \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Yeah. Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  And -- or this -- while I was there, I did a lot, you asked, I did a lot of operettas with Ben Pollack. You know, I did -- I have the pictures and you'll see what I, Hasidim, etc., \u003cSOUNDS LIKE Monesh\u003e, Lilith. And also I did something from Weinberg's. Maybe you know --  \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Halutzim?  \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  One of the arias. Dressed like an Arab.  \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  You mean the Halutzim.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=1499.0,1529.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/52","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"NATHAN KATZMAN:  the Halutzim with Ben Pollack. And I didn’t know at the time. He goes [singing].\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  But you did it in Yiddish. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Yiddish. [Singing]\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Who translated? Because the opera's in Hebrew. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Well, somebody must have translated it. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Somebody translated it. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Yeah. Must have. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Must have translated it. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  HeHalutz\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Halutz yes. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  And they performed -- they performed the whole thing or just section? \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  No. No. Just excerpts. So I did two. Two --","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=1529.0,1560.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/53","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"NEIL LEVIN:  This was at a concert? \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Yes. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  At -- in synagogue? \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  No. No. That was at JPI. They were dancing [inaudible]\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  That's at Douglas Boulevard. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Dancing. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  No. That's interesting, because usually the -- there's one aria there that was performed now and then that's -- but that's the soprano, the Shir Hashirim. You know, that aria in there, the Shir Hashirim. But -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN: And, at that time, you knew each other. You were friends already.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN: Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN: Yeah. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN: What was the Reform movement like?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN: The Reform? I don’t know. Very Reform. I had very little…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN: Mitzvah was Reform.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN: Mitzvah was a Reform temple and I sang at Mitzvah and I filled in at Sholem that time for Pavlos Levinsky (?).  And I think that's about as close as I ever came to Reform music.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=1560.0,1610.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/54","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"NEIL LEVIN:  Now, you know, at that time, Chicago -- I -- still had a lot of hazzanus out on the west side. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Yeah. They had them on the west side, the Russische Shul, the -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Did you ever go to the Russische Shul? \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Yeah. I sang there. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  You ever go to that? \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  My father davened there. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  I was in -- I was a kid. I sang with the choir there.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN: On High Holiday, the Pesach…","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=1610.0,1627.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/55","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"NEIL LEVIN:  This performance at the UJ, for example, that you have a tape of. What -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  That was in 1953. They had us out at the University in Judaism and establishing a Jewish music council. I was critical of their program because the only classes in music they had were two classes so-called, one of which was a class in choral singing. So there were 10 to 12 singers who sang in a weekly rehearsal and --","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=1627.0,1654.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/56","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"NEIL LEVIN:  Who -- who conducted that? \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Karl Erstein (?) olav hashalom was the conductor. And they had another class -- just learn some Hebrew songs, liturgical songs. So I said that's a very pedestrian kind of an arrangement, and I suggested that they utilize the musical talent that was, you know, endemic to the area at that time. You had great composers. Everybody came out to California, to -- to the gan eden.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAnd the Greenbergs -- Simon Greenberg – olav hashlom I guess he passed away -- at that time, reminded me that this was Mordecai Kaplan's idea when he had established -- suggested the establishment of a University of Judaism and use all the talent. So --","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=1654.0,1697.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/57","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"NEIL LEVIN:  Let me just interrupt. You -- you mean Simon Greenberg from the Seminary? \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Yeah. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Which -- the Vice -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHe was the -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Vice Chancellor. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Vice Chancellor -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Right. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  -- of the Seminary.   \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Mm-hmm. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Well, he had come out here and actually they -- I don’t know if you knew Ben, Ben Lax was the past president at the Region of the United Synagogue. And Aaron Gordon also and Ed Rose was executive director of the university at that time. So I prevailed on them to -- that we should meet with Greenberg and Sam Dinin , who was the director of the Jewish Studies, the Bureau. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eSo I met with them and Ben Pollack and Ben Lax and -- and the Aaron Gordon, and Art Rissen (sp?), who was president of the VJCC where I was the cantor. And so we -- I spoke to Greenberg to propose this -- and I have some minutes and stuff at these meetings and so on -- and proposed that we set up a music council and get some of the composers in the area to create music in the Jewish idiom, quote-unquote, and use the Jewish themes and so forth.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=1697.0,1756.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/58","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"And he reminded me, gently, you know, Cantor, you may not know, but -- I said, well, I know that there are musicians who are willing and ready and able to do this. So, finally, he says -- well, he challenged me. If you can put together a committee and get something like this started, we'll work with you. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eSo I got out and spoke to Eudice Shapiro -- who was, at that time, concertmaster at the MGM, I believe -- and her husband's Victor Gottlieb, and Erno Neufeld, who was concertmaster at the Universal Studios. In those days, studio orchestras had -- they had studio orchestras. And Sara, Manny and -- and Alec Compinsky, the Compinsky Trio. And I got together with some of the people. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eGeorge Wyle, who was a popular composer. He was a conductor and an arranger for Doris Day in my congregation. And Charles Previn -- that's Andre Previn's uncle, who was a music director for Universal Studios in those days. So these were all part of the Music Council, including Tedesco, who we also co-opted onto this council.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=1756.0,1819.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/59","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"And Tedesco volunteered to compose a -- a work for a world premiere. So we put together a -- the Music Council. We went to the university then -- I have minutes and stuff on that -- to -- to  propose to Greenberg and to the university that we go ahead with this program. So we did. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eWe set up a music council and Nate -- through Nate's influence, we were able to get it done at Beth El. And we gave Tedesco's work a world premiere. He wrote the Queen of Sheba. It was performed by a black -- African-American contralto, Georgia Lester I think, was her name, with eleven women's voices. I think it was published subsequently by -- I'm not sure whether it was Transcontinental or one of the others. And we did the Queen of Sheba; gave it a world premiere.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=1819.0,1866.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/60","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"NEIL LEVIN:  At -- at the University of Judaism? \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  At the Beth El. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  At the -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Had about 1,200 people. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  But the -- but the UJ was behind it. Yeah. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  UJ sponsored it. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  And was this music -- were you active on this music council? \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  He was involved with it. Yeah. He got -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  And the music -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Yeah. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  The Music Council was -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Out of the University of Judaism. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Out of the university. But do I understand correctly that it was kind of accepted -- I mean, it was -- it was not just for the UJ-\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN: contingent\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN: related people, but it was -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  It was -- no. It was people from the music world. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  So it was for all of Los Angeles. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  All -- it took in all the people with whom we had contact, in the -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  So in those days, UJ had an important musical role. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  They did at that -- we started -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  -- a musical role then. Yeah. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Mm-hmm.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=1866.0,1904.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/61","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JULIUS BLACKMAN:  And -- and we did this. Gave it a world premiere. But in order to make the concert more appealing -- I have the program here. You'll see it. We had the -- we had the American Arts Quartet, that was Eudice Shapiro and Victor Gottlieb, her husband, was the cellist. And two others, who did the, Achron wrote a children's suite. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Mm-hmm. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  It's a very short 22 vignettes.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Mm-hmm. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  About a minute-and-a-half, two minutes each. So we got the American Arts Quartet to do 10 of those vignettes for the children's suite. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Excuse me. But the children's suite, that's for string quartet? \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  String quartet. Yeah. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  There's another one for piano. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Well, this is for string quartet. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  I wonder if it's the same piece. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  It may even have been -- no. I think this one is for the string quartet.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=1904.0,1949.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/62","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"NEIL LEVIN:  Uh-huh. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  And they did that. And then we -- we figured that, to really sell to the community, we had to have a cantorial ensemble. So we had to -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  I have a picture for that.     \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  You have a picture? \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  It was -- it was -- yeah. It was done in my show. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  [Inaudible] Yeah. So we had a cantor's ensemble. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  And then ensemble there was other [inaudible] \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  You have the picture here? \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Yes. I think I have. Yes. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  I'll take a look when I go through. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Yes. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  That'd be nice. Yeah. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Yeah. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  We had eight. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Of the cantor [inaudible] \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Either seven or eight ones. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  May I just mention we should have interest. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Sure. Sure.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=1949.0,1975.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/63","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"NATHAN KATZMAN:  At that also, I think, was same time The Dybbuk, you know, by Tempkin so -- was done. And -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  I think that was a year or two after. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  No. That -- and the -- but in the reviews, you know, the [inaudible] -- didn’t make such a big impression. But the mention -- the critic mentioned the -- about the cantorial ensemble. The bland, etcetera and so on.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=1975.0,2005.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/64","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"NEIL LEVIN:  And that was at the -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Yes. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  You were -- you sang in that. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Yeah. We all sang. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  You all sang. And -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Yeah. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  And who conducted it? \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  I con- -- I -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  You conducted it. Now -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  I conducted it. Yeah. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  What -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Alan Michaelson was there [inaudible]\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Yeah. I have -- I have a picture. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Leon Bennett. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  This was -- this was '53. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  '53, yeah.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=2005.0,2020.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/65","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"NEIL LEVIN:  And who -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  I have the program. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  And then, of course, it lasted a while, this -- this cantor's ensemble, didn’t it? \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Yes. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Oh, yeah. That started it. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  And that was the one -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Yes. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  That we did again the next year. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  That [inaudible] \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Cantors ensemble did a number, some liturgical works. In fact, I think they did the [inaudible] \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Who arranged all the music for them, for -- for men's voices?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Well, Riskin [ph. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Riskin?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=2020.0,2040.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/66","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"NATHAN KATZMAN:  Irv Riskin. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003e[talking over each other]\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Mostly his arrangements, would you say? \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Yeah. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Yeah. It was most -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  And where are they now? Where could we find the arrangements?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  I have some of them. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  You have some of the arrangements? For --   \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  I have some of the arrangements. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  I'm talking for TTBB. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Yeah. TTBB. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  You have some? \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  I have some, yeah. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  And -- and [inaudible] \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  We did [inaudible] Shabbos and we did [inaudible] and we did -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  You have them at home?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  I have them at home. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  In San Francisco. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Yeah. Yeah.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=2040.0,2061.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/67","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"NEIL LEVIN:  And you have some also? \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Yes. I have a few. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Because I would be very interested in that. To -- to write about that. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Irv Riskin was a fantastic arranger for… \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Now, you see, I would be very interested when -- after today. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  But if we can talk about -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  The music. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Finding -- putting together all those arrangements, because I’d like to write about that whole era, because today, it's a lost thing about -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  -- men -- men's choir. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Yeah. That’s right. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  [Inaudible] to have it [inaudible] \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  I threw out barrels.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Yeah. Because then, you didn’t have arrangements. You had --","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=2061.0,2084.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/68","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"NEIL LEVIN:  Huh? \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  I threw out barrels of music with arrangements.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  You threw it out? \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN: No one to give it to. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003e[talking over each other]\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  I have some left. I have -- as a [inaudible] date [inaudible] I have something for you and a whole bunch of songs and [inaudible] for chorus.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=2084.0,2099.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/69","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"NEIL LEVIN:  Today? \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Yes. Yes. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  So [inaudible] \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  I have it. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  All right. I'll remember to take it. And those arrangements -- Fordis may have some. Who knows? From those who sang in it from those days, I guess. But now let me -- now, so that's what this tape is, that you -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Yeah. This tape is. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  The reel tape that we're talking about you have --  \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  That -- that whole concert.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=2099.0,2113.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/70","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"NEIL LEVIN:  -- is the Queen of -- that whole concert. Not just the Queen of Sheba thing. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Not the Queen of Sheba. The -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  So that's a historic -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  It is. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  And I'm asking for a reason. There's a -- there's a reason why I'm trying to pin this down. That's a historic -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Originals, yeah. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  -- moment in -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Yeah. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  It was the opening thing.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=2113.0,2126.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/71","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JULIUS BLACKMAN:  In contemporary Jewish music. Right. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Now, you -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  I was going to say -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  You have a tape. No. Go ahead. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  I was going to say that the same ensemble, you know, did quite a few outstanding concerts throughout the city. Very important concerts and very favorably reviewed. One of them was at the Wilshire Ebell which seats 1,300. And it was a very -- and I have -- I have a picture of the group. The same group that sang there. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eThey made a tremendous impression, so much so that they asked if they would repeat the program. And that was the ensemble that you will see on the picture. And Lionel Hampton was at that time – for Hadassah. And the -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  No. That was [inaudible]\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  This -- this -- I bring that up because this -- the [inaudible] was very active. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Yeah. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  This region? \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  This region. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Yeah. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  This region. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  You see, what we were trying to do -- we were trying -- we felt this was our -- frankly, our basic philosophy. We felt that the -- the cantor should be part and parcel of the Conservative movement. But they shouldn’t be a yotzei min haklal separate. So we tried to get ourselves involved and did and we have programs here, where the United Synagogue annual conference is here in the region.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=2126.0,2194.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/72","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"In fact, they used to have an annual conference where they would have one service in which all the cantors and all the rabbis participated. And the whole service, on a Friday night, the conference service was with all the cantors. Each cantor would do a solo and there would be some ensemble things and so forth. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAnd then in order further to sell the idea to the community, we arranged for every cantor to do concerts all over, as Nate said, all over town. And we -- the cantor in the particular synagogue where we did the concert would be the -- the k’nocker if you will. He would be the soloist. He would be the conductor. The rest of us would form the ensemble; do some ensemble things with maybe a solo in the ensemble. You know, so some of the arrangements were made specifically to involve cantors and solo - tenor, baritone, you know?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=2194.0,2242.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/73","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"NEIL LEVIN:  And this worked. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  This worked very well. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  For years? For -- how long? \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Number of years. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Number. But it came to -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  [Inaudible] together. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Yeah.  \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Yeah.   \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Well we did -- one thing was a big thing. We did -- in fact, we were challenged. United Synagogue had an annual conference. I think it was around 1954. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  [Inaudible] Pacific [inaudible] \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  In fact, I have the program; the west coast region. And this gal was supposed to conduct and she wanted to do an Eternal Light script. And I didn’t think it was such a hot idea. I didn’t like the script. So she got a little upset and she said, all right, you want to do it? You do it. And she walked off. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eSo I wrote a script called, And on the Seventh Day. Used some of the music at cantata which we used some of the music. The Dunayevsky V’shamru.We did a number of other things. Nate directed the whole thing. I was the producer and Nate was the director. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Nehemiah Persoff --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Huh? \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Nehemiah Persoff was the narrator. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  [Inaudible] narrate. No. Ben Lax and -- and what's his name? Simon from the university who was the -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Yeah. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  -- publicity university member. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Yeah. But Persoff was also there.  \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  No. Not on that one. That was two years later. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Later.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=2242.0,2311.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/74","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:\u003c/strong\u003e I have the script. Anyway, we did the whole thing. The cantors did the whole thing. Dave Darrel handled the lights and Nate directed the whole thing. We had -- we did a -- a -- we pantomimed a scene, a study session on a Shabbos afternoon. Because we couldn’t figure out how to convey what they were going through, so we had a study session in pantomime. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAbe Sulkoff [ph] was there; Sam Fordis [ph]. So they were having the -- a little argument about a point of interpretation. And they're pouring over the book, and this little guy who's sitting in the corner says, no. No. And they shoved him aside no good. All this is pantomime. And finally he points out. He reminds them and somebody says, ah. You know, they go through this whole thing. Abe did very good job of that.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=2311.0,2353.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/75","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"And Dave Darrel was in the corner singing this -- I forget the -- what do you call it? It was a Russian Yiddish. Anyway, and brought down the house. We -- and then we were -- this cantata was chosen to represent the Jewish idiom and the brotherhood in music concert at the Wilshire Ebell. Remember? They had -- the University of Southern California had a group there, Chapman College, Fairmont -- Claremont College, Pomona. University of Judaism; UCLA. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAnd this cantata was represented the Jewish idiom where you had the cantors involved and the cantors ensemble put together this -- the segments from this thing for that -- for that concert. And then --  \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  So when did the -- this cantors ensemble kind of peter out? It ended. I mean, it -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Well, it sort of went in and out. It's to the -- well, now they're doing it at the -- you know, the conventions every year. You have the ensemble.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=2353.0,2407.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/76","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"NATHAN KATZMAN:  No. That's not -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  That's not -- that's something -- that's not what I mean. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN: [Inaudible]\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  You know what I mean. Yeah. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  I'm talking about what -- the kind of thing you're describing with the commitment here with resident. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  I think after Nate and I sort of were not anymore involved, it sort of -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Yeah.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=2407.0,2422.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/77","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JULIUS BLACKMAN:  It sort of died out. Died of its own whatever. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Uh-huh. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  There wasn't any -- any [inaudible] \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Now, you -- Katzman, you gave me this tape here which we'll -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Yes. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  -- listen to later. Now, but this -- what's the story behind this?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=2422.0,2436.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/78","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"NATHAN KATZMAN:  This? \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  This. This is -- you -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  This is -- this was made most of my, except from concerts, which I did for 10 years, at the Wilshire Ebell with symphony orchestra, with an ensemble from the orchestra here, the symphony orchestra, and chorus - 12. I can name some names. [inaudible Bachman?] was the used to always have the double quartet. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Uh-huh. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Carol Burness was a soprano for 10 years and Gail Dubinbaum (?) which are all names that you know. And that many of them won the awards, metropolitan awards. And so we -- what we did was that Riskin would tape in the organ loft. We were in the organ loft. I don’t know if you were ever in Beth El. And he would tape. Some of it was good. Some, for instance, as you will see there, I did the ribono shel olom to the ark. So, therefore,","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=2436.0,2492.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/79","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"here yes and no. But there are two from the Ebell, because every year -- and it's interesting how I began. These -- excuse me, I -- I did Echad leShabbes, and you'll hear here. And they -- and then also I did V’uleye, which David Tempkin the one who wrote, you know, the -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Dybbuk.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Was a very dear friend of mine, so he also wrote for me and arranged. He was an arranger. The top arranger here in Los Angeles, in the studios. So he arranged V’uleye, and he arranged [inaudible] and the -- [inaudible]\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  For -- with orchestra? \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  With -- yes. Symphony orchestra and chorus, etcetera. So you'll -- you'll hear it. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  And where's the music for that? \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Okay. The music? \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Mm-hmm. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  I have it. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  You have those things. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  I have. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Yeah.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=2492.0,2533.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/80","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"NATHAN KATZMAN:  I have. I once told you I -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Yeah. Look -- we were looking for it together. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Yes. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  We didn’t find it. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  No. No. How -- it's an interesting thing how I began the concerts. This was in 1961. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Mm-hmm. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Was my first concert in the Ebell. The Ebell has 1,500 seats, you know? There were two ways -- two -- he had an audience and I used to pack it. So I once auditioned for Helfman. Then I did a lot of operettas with -- with him. All kinds. And I have there [inaudible]. And the -- these are his words. That's the God's honest truth. When he -- I sang for him, he said the -- you're the last of the Mohicans. That's what he said.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=2533.0,2571.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/81","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"And then he said, do you want to go with me, he says, on the coast? And we'll do fine things. He says Ladino and, you know, the six [inaudible]. I said fine. And I put down a deposit of my own money on the Wilshire Ebell Theater and began to advertise. He went up -- I don’t know if you know Texas. He had a brother or somebody to a wedding. And he passed out and then he died under the canopy. So I said, what am I going to do now? \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Wait. Who -- who died under the canopy? \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Helfman.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Is that -- is that what happened. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  At that time, in 1960s. Yes. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Yes. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  And he died. So I was loathe to stop and I put in a lot of effort. So began -- I made the annually a concert and I called it Concert Hebraica. Later on, other people called it also but that was concert. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  But that was the annual -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Yeah. And -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Concert Hebraica\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Yeah. Jewish [inaudible] music man. And in it, we used a chorus, 16-piece. We used a 16-piece orchestra sometimes. Symphony orchestra. Naturally, not first-class orchestra, but La Mirada Orchestra. And it was very successful. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNow, in order to do that, you know, you had to sell tickets. And so we would give like 30 percent of to organizations, synagogues, etcetera. And University of Judaism asked me to meet them and they made $2,500 on their share and other organizations. And this went on for 10 years. And eventually I began to -- I transferred into Hollywood Temple Beth El so they could have the benefit of that. But the story is about what -- with Helfman happened.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=2571.0,2679.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/82","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JULIUS BLACKMAN:  I should tell you, by the way, that the second year, '54, this [inaudible] which I think you may be able to help. We did another concert -- the music concert at the university. And we did -- we convinced Ernst Toch to do a setting of Vanity of Vanities also from biblical theme. And did it at Hollywood Temple Israel. And the -- I wanted to tape that thing also, and KFWB came in.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Oh, yeah.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=2679.0,2708.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/83","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JULIUS BLACKMAN:  And -- and they said they needed the outlets. They would tape it. So if you can get it from KFWB, because that's the only taping -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  You think they'd still have it? \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  -- that was done. I don’t know. This was for 1954. KFWB -- Harry Maizlish at that time, was the owner.   \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  You have other tapes? \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Yes. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  At home from other -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  No. Not tapes.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  From some of these events? \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN: I have tapes…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003e[talking over each other]","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=2708.0,2729.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/84","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"NEIL LEVIN:  No. But -- all right. So but how about year -- in succeeding years? \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN: Well, succeed -- but -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  I appeared -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Do you have any tapes of these kind -- either one. The ones at the -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  I -- yes. I appeared with the Ben Pollack with an outstanding octet. I mean, outstanding. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Mm-hmm. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  And the -- this was at KFWB and a couple of times. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  But they taped -- they recorded it. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003e NATHAN KATZMAN:  They recorded it.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=2729.0,2748.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/85","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"NEIL LEVIN:  So you don’t have the -- you don’t have a copy of it? \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  No. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Well, I have tapes. I have reel-to-reel tapes of concerts I did at the Valley Beth Shalom when I was there. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Uh-huh. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  And the VJCC. I have a High Holiday service that I did -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  But they're all reel-to-reel. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  -- at VJC. But they're all reel-to-reel. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  And what about -- and what about more of these concerts at the cantor's ensemble or of the annual thing like for the UJ.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=2748.0,2766.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/86","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JULIUS BLACKMAN:  Well, the -- we involved the cantors in these concerts that we did. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Yeah. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  [Inaudible] tapes. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  So I have -- I have -- I had a number of -- I had about six or eight guys [inaudible] \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  So I think what we need to do -- we need to get all those reel-to-reel. The first step is put it onto cassettes. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Yeah. Yeah. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Right away. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Yeah. Yeah. Because I have -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  So we can then sift out -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  I have a couple of dozen tapes -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  But -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  -- of concerts that I've done all over the place.  \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  But they're all reel-to-reel.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=2766.0,2786.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/87","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JULIUS BLACKMAN:  They're all reel-to-reel, unfortunately. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  No. But they can be put onto cassettes. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  I have a -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Professionally.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  I have a 78rpm that I did at -- when I was at LA State College. So I taped the Die Mainacht by Brahms and the -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Well, that would -- yeah. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  But that's part of the -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  That's something else. Now, I'm looking here at some interesting things. Here's a letter addressed to the reverend. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  That's my father. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  The reverend. M. Katzman. That's your father. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  N? That's me.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=2786.0,2816.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/88","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"NEIL LEVIN:  No. It's M. It's a mistake, I guess. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  The name. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  M. Not N. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  M? \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  That -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  David was my father's name. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  No. This is -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  [Inaudible]\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  In 1946, see. And it says -- this is from Paul Atesetik\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Oh, yeah. Chicago. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  In in Pittsburgh.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Pittsburgh, I mean. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  In Pittsburgh. And they're asking you for -- for -- if you're interested in the position. You didn’t go there. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  No. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  You never went there. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  They first wrote to my father. There's another letter you'll find. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  It's interesting because it says, we're a modern orthodox congregation now. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Yes. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  I thought that was a -- a new term. That's a pretty recent expression but --","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=2816.0,2851.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/89","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JULIUS BLACKMAN:  No. They had modern orthodox [inaudible] \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Way back. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Fairfax. It was -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  I never did know what it means. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Morty Franklin was there. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  I still don’t know what it means. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  I'll tell you what it means. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  I know what they -- I know what they -- but -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  But they did. They seated the women on the sides, not in back. That essentially is what it meant.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=2851.0,2869.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/90","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"NEIL LEVIN:  This -- here's a picture. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  This is when I -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Yeah. Who is -- who is this picture? \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  That's me right over there.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  That's you. All right. Now I'm going to hold these picture up to the camera. So, Josh, tell me if -- if I'm holding it in roughly the right area. This is, you know, just the way we do it. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJOSH (camera operator):  Yeah. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Okay. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJOSH (camera operator):  Hold on one second. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  And then we'll -- we'll -- we'll photocopy them. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJOSH (camera operator):   [Inaudible] shot on it. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  This is not for a good -- just to identify later. Okay. So we know what we're talking about. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJOSH (camera operator):   Hold it still. I just want a nice -- stop moving. Nice tight shot. Hold it. Okay. That's good.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=2869.0,2899.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/91","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"NEIL LEVIN:  Okay. Now, what's the story -- this is -- this is you in -- in -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  1945 probably, when I officiated in the Boyle Heights.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Uh-huh. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  For the High Holidays. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Beth David. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Huh? \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Beth David. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Beth David. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  [Inaudible]\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Yeah. And the -- the beautiful part about it is that there -- I have the letter that you'll see that there – they paid me the highest price that they ever paid the cantor. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Now, what's this? What's -- what's this picture? \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  This is the ensemble. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  This is the -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  This was at my shul. There is Julie the ensemble. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  I'm up at the left over there. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  And they are the -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  [Inaudible] younger. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  But I'm -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  David [inaudible] is over there. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  That's the cantorial ensemble we were just talking about.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=2899.0,2931.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/92","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"NATHAN KATZMAN:  Ensemble. Yes. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  There's no year on here, so -- but -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  The year -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  About. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  About -- in the '50s. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Uh-huh. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  It was in the '50s. Yeah. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  All right. These are various clippings in -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Yes. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  From the Yiddish paper. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Yes. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Now, this Yiddish paper is here in Los Angeles? \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  No. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  No. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Yes. Yes. Yes. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  There is Yiddish papers.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=2931.0,2948.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/93","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"NATHAN KATZMAN:  I'll tell you what happened. They had a branch here. And whenever some -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Some events. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Events -- events of importance occurred. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Uh-huh. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  And there was the Yiddish culture club then they would list that. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Here’s -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  There was a Yiddish Culture Club up here in -- in Los Angeles. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  And it still exists now. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  For a month. Every month they would have -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Well, it's not the original, but -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Meetings and [inaudible.]\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Those days, it was, they had a lot, hundred -- hundreds of members and such. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  And you got involved with them? \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Very much.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  You're saying -- because --  \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  I became -- because I never charged. So I -- and I -- as I said, I later learned to sing some Yiddish, and very heavy repertoire, and so, I would be called upon. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Uh-huh.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=2948.0,2989.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/94","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"NATHAN KATZMAN:  To do these things. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  But this is -- it says Forverts. That means -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Yes. Yes.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  But this is a Los Angeles edition of the Forverts? \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  They had a Los Angeles -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Could have been nationally also but… \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Well, it says -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  It was distributed in LA. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Yes. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  It says here, Hazzan Katzman [Yiddish]\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Yes. Yeah. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Which is -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  With my choir. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Yeah. Well -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  May I? \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Yeah. Yeah. Hold it up first. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Right here. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Okay. I can identify that later. It's not a problem.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=2989.0,3011.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/95","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JULIUS BLACKMAN:  Yeah. I did a Third Seder for the Yiddish Culture Club. They used to have a third -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Well, tell me about that. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  -- seder. They had a dance group —\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Yeah. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  -- trained in modern dance style. They interpreted the crossing of the -- of the Red Sea and some Yiddish club. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  This was when? In the '50s? \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  In the '50s. [Singing]. Did that. And then the [singing.]","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=3011.0,3066.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/96","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"NEIL LEVIN:  Do you know who wrote -- it's great. Do you know who wrote that song? \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  I don’t know who wrote it. I heard a -- a recording of it by Leon Lishner up in Washington. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Washington. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  He was a professor at the University of Washington. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  But that's a typical Workmen's Circle. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  It was a -- well, it was an Yiddish intellectuals who did that. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  [Inaudible] yeah. Just fine. Yeah. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  It was a Yiddish Culture Club. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Here. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Here. Yeah. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Oh. So it wasn't specifically Der Arbeter Ring. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  No. It wasn't Der Arbeter Ring.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  But the Third Seder. The third -- the third -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  The Third Seder was a Yiddish Culture Club. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Oh. Not Der Arbeter Ring? \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  No. The Yiddish -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Because in New York and Chicago -- sit back a little bit. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Oh, I'm sorry.   \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  It’s okay, even when you sing. But it's great, because the Yiddish -- in other words, the Third Seder -- when we think of the Third Seder in New York, in Chicago, in Detroit. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Yeah. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Where it's more or less associated with Der Arbeter Ring. They sponsor it 100 percent.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=3066.0,3110.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/97","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JULIUS BLACKMAN:  Yeah. But this was the Yiddish Culture Club, which is an intellectual -- they did classical Yiddish, readings. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Not specifically Arbeter Ring. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Not specific -- no. Definitely not. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Very interesting. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Because the -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  And so the Third Seder -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  [Inaudible] husband, you know, what's his name? [Inaudible] was the president of the Yiddish Culture Club for a number of years. He was not an Arbeter Ring person. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  So the -- so the -- these -- these Third Seders here would -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  The Yiddish Culture Club.  \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  -- be probably different. A different kind of music maybe. Different -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  It was a whole different orientation. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Now, that's -- the song that you sang there, that -- you don’t know where that came from. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  I have it. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  You have it?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  I did a lot of the -- as I pointed out -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Yeah. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  So the Third Seder --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN: I have a copy of that Third Seder someplace. I have the whole seder.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=3110.0,3150.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/98","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"NEIL LEVIN: Well, you don’t have it here. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN: Not here, no.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN: But you have it at home.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN: I can get it [inaudible].\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN: I would be very interested in that, but very important for our project here. Very important for example is, of the Third Seder, the program showing what songs, and then the music, because this tells us history. And I’m learning right now, because this is the first time I hear of a Third Seder -- called a Third Seder that wasn't Arbeter Ring.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=3150.0,3175.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/99","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"NATHAN KATZMAN:  Oh, no. This is -- and these people had readings, they got professionals in Yiddish theater who did readings --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Uh-huh. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  -- at their monthly events and they had a Yiddish -- one of them at this Third Seder, he did the readings --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  How about -- about --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  -- and some of the dramatics --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  -- the song like did they \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  -- readings.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  -- [Yiddish?]\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Yes.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Yeah, that's in there.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  [Singing.]\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Yes. And the -- and the [inaudible] and [Hebrew [singing] And they have a number of other [inaudible] --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  And these songs all are not --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  All part of that --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  -- not what used to --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  -- [inaudible.]","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=3175.0,3214.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/100","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"NEIL LEVIN:  Now, would you say that these -- these type of songs are specifically American? They grew up in America?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  No. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  No?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  No.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Well, I don’t know.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Most of them were from the -- the old country, from Europe.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  [Hebrew]\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  There's stuff there [inaudible.]\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Well, I mean, like Prmdn [ph] was used here in America for --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Yeah, I think that was American.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  -- Yiddish --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  I knew --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  I think they co-opted a number of the Yiddish, East European songs\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Would -- would you say that the Third Seder --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  -- is a particularly American custom.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Actually yes\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  That devel -- that grew up here?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Not here. Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Neither of you heard it in Europe, did you --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  No, no. no.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  -- third -- the -- the Third --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Never.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  -- Seder business?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003e JULIUS BLACKMAN:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Even among the Yiddishists?-\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  I didn't get it --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  -- just in Europe?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  No.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  No? So, therefore, this is very important, you see, we put this together. So, you've got that at home?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=3214.0,3254.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/101","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JULIUS BLACKMAN:  I have that [inaudible], yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  We have to -- we have to get th- -- we have to look and --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  [inaudible]\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  -- see where the -- fascinating thing.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Now, here is a -- a letter thanking you for -- Dear Cantor Katzman, I want to thank you for assistance you rendered to the Council of Conservative Synagogues and the conference. Now, that's the conference -- that's 1944.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Yes.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=3254.0,3278.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/102","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"NEIL LEVIN:  This is earlier when we were talking about period --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  -- you were talking the '50s again.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  What was that conference?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  It was the United Synagogue, wasn't it?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  In Chicago?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  No.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Oh, Chicago.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Chicago.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Yeah. Council of Conservative Synagogues --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Oh, excuse me.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  -- in Chicago.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Yeah, yes. Oh, I tell you -- does it say there about the -- about the school?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=3278.0,3297.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/103","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"NEIL LEVIN:  No, it doesn't say. You see it just says I wan- -- thank you for --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Well, it must of --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  -- your assistance --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  -- mean a soloist at one of --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  April 2nd, 1944.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  I did a lot of solo work in Chicago.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Before we came out here.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  It was probably a performance of some sort, yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Yeah, yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Yeah. It was before you came out here, you see. Now, here's something that talks about you and -- under the heading humor and music.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Yeah. That's -- that was in 1984 --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Uh-huh.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  -- when I submitted a -- a -- about a -- a-- a -- a Jewish humor as reflected in folksong, in Yiddish folksongs.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  It's a paper?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Yeah. But they were from all over the world.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  But did where did you deliver this paper?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=3297.0,3336.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/104","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"NATHAN KATZMAN:  To -- in Tel Aviv University.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Oh.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  But people came from all over. From Ireland, from Soviet Union, from --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Just recent? That's --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  No. In '80 --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  '84.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  -- '84.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  And '84 is recent. I mean --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Yes, '84.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  -- that's what I mean as compared --   \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  '84, yes.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  [inaudible.]\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Was that at the conference of the --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Of the colloquial and -- and Congress.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  The World Congress of Jewish Studies.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Fourth -- Fourth Congress.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=3336.0,3353.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/105","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"NEIL LEVIN:  The Fourth Congress of Jewish Studies.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  On humor.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Oh.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  On humor.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Yeah, I know. We have all that --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  And then it continued. And --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  I know about that.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  -- as a matter of fact, they asked me to be in Cork University in Ireland and other universities.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Did you ever publish that?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  No.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  The paper?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  But I had --","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=3353.0,3365.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/106","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"NEIL LEVIN:  Now they publish the papers automatically from those congress.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  I have --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Is that right?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  I -- I might have given [inaudible.]\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  In fact, that's a condition. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  You have to give it to them in publishable form.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  It was an interesting lecture.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Who is this --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  This is myself --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  -- this picture here?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  -- and my son. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  I'm getting this on camera now.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  As we do a concert.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  That was in [inaudible] Creek, right?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Uh-huh.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Wasn't that [inaudible] --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  No. All over, and even here.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Yeah.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=3365.0,3385.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/107","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"NEIL LEVIN:  And now this is interesting. Here is a letter in Yiddish --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  -- this is what we were talking about, to you, to -- to Hazzan Katzman from the Cant- -- from the Cantors And Ministers --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  That's right.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  -- Seminary of Chicago.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  That's right. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  But the --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  As I told you, maybe that’s the one that I told you about.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Yeah, it says organizing committee.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Organizing committee of cantors.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=3385.0,3402.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/108","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"NATHAN KATZMAN:  Yes.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Todros Greenberg, Joseph Giblickman \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  -- J.M. Lindh -- that's Joshua Lindh, Anshel Freedman, that's who you mentioned.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Anshel \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Anshel Freedman.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Anshel Freedman.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Right.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Tevala Cohen.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Abraham Kipper.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Kipper, yeah. What I say on him.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Yeah. And then N. Kravitz --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Kravitz was --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  -- was executive director.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  -- the one you were talking about.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  And it's 228 South Wabash --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003e JULIUS BLACKMAN:  [inaudible] Silverman wasn't even mentioned there.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  -- so I know that yeah. But you -- this is -- this letter here --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Yes, yes.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  -- is from that -- but he calls it a seminary, but I mean actually it really never was that. They had an office there.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=3402.0,3432.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/109","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"NATHAN KATZMAN:  No. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  They were starting a --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  It -- it -- it wasn't -- it didn't come out.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  It wasn't that organized.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Now, here from Julliard. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Yes. When I auditioned.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  It says Norton Katzman. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  I called Norton K maybe or Norton Katzman?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  No, here it says --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  That -- that -- that --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  -- this is a certified at --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  [inaudible] Norton.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Norton Katzman.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Yes. I'll tell you what happened.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  He got angry.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  I -- I -- I came and -- and I auditioned for Julliard for Oscar Wagner, who was the Assistant Dean --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Uh-huh.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  -- [inaudible] dean. It was the old Julliard on 122nd Street and Claremont.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Yeah.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=3432.0,3460.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/110","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"NATHAN KATZMAN:  And you had to pay for an audition because obviously didn't want people to come every time they can, hey, I paid my fee, et cetera. And I was fond of La Juive. And another -- and Oscar Wagner was the Assistant Dean accompanied me. And I did La Juive and then he stopped me and he -- some -- a group of people came up, he must have sent somebody to -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Uh-huh.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  -- and he said do it again. And -- and then I did also Shubert Serenade. I like that too. So, and then, they took me on, as you see there --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Mm-hmm.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  -- and I stayed with them for eight months. But they were not noted at that time for the vocal department. Everything else except the vocal department as you will find out. So, I didn't stay. I want to Brussels to study.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=3460.0,3508.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/111","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"NEIL LEVIN:  This is 1934?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Yes.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  And --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Mm-hmm. Now you know how old I am.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  I see here, actually Felix Warburg is on the --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Yeah, I noticed that too.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Yeah. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  And that's interesting because I never -- I never did -- it's just a name probably from the Warburg family but it's the same fam- --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  No. Felix Warburg was the -- the Warburg.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  The Warburg family.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Yes.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  The Jewish German --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  -- Jewish family. Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Yeah. Big --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  But this is early on because the Julliard --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Yes.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  -- School of Music but it still has in the ri- -- Institute of Musical Art. Now --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  All right. This --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  -- here's from Paramount Pictures --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Okay. So, let me say --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  -- what's the story behind this letter?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  -- I -- I -- yeah. I left Chicago on my own just to look around because I had asthma and hay fever, and the doctor said to my wife that if you don't take him to California he's going to die on you. So, I went out to see what can be done. And I was still at Bnai Zion.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=3508.0,3550.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/112","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"And the -- the man that -- was a baritone that if -- that came with me sang in my choir in Chicago and he had a - his brother-in-law who was a very famous agent and on Sunset, Fisher. And I came there, and it was soiree and everybody did some stuff and some actors, singers. So, I sang a couple things and he was impressed and he sent out a letter to all those — every studio, every studio, Paramount, Warner Brothers --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Mm-hmm.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  -- and you can see. And they were impressed with a recording and because they asked me to come and audition. The problem was that a lot of the auditions was on Shabbos and I was very religious. And secondly, I was afraid I had -- because, you know, I had the position in Chicago and just to come here, I didn't have the guts. I got a family so I -- so I -- just as you see there --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Mm-hmm.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  -- I answered everyone --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  -- thanked them, so -- so -- so this -- every studio. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Here I -- I see Norton K. That's you?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Norton K, so I tell you what --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Yeah, Mr. Norton K and -- and you used that in Montreal.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Yes. And it's also in French there.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=3550.0,3611.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/113","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"NEIL LEVIN:  Yes.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  I sang there, I -- and as a -- I was soloist for -- for about a -- a season, a full season.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Mm-hmm.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  I auditioned and that was the French station, the French station.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Oh.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  [inaudible]  and then I called myself Norton K because [Hebrew]. So, I -- I -- I changed my name and I used to appear every Sunday.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Yeah. Here they're inviting you for an audition.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Yes.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Oh, yes.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  All right. I was successful.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  [French]  And -- and then, of course, they're -- here's the letter. You're right. This was a letter to your father.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  -- now about you from...\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  -- Paulette Sedick. But that's the same business.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Yes.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  -- they try to get you to -- to -- to come...\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  That was in '46.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  ..you want to go there.  \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  [inaudible.]","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=3611.0,3651.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/114","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"NEIL LEVIN:  Here's the Passover story with music to be given our radio station KFWB.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Yeah. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  That's the --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Oh, that's one that I can get --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  -- that's the one --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  -- possibly for you.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  That's in '49.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Yes. That --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  So, you were both here by then?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  No. But --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  -- oh, no. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  '49, we were here.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  I was here, yeah --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  -- but I did it with a -- a -- a double quartet with Pollock.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  It says that the script is written by Bill Mason --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Yes.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  -- for this one, right?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  From Chicago, yes.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  And, uh, that's the same thing. What's the story on -- this is very interesting -- the Austrian Hungarian Synagogue in Montreal.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=3651.0,3681.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/115","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"NATHAN KATZMAN:  That's what I get -- my first real Orthodox shul Shaare Tefillah .\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Oh, Shaare Tefillah is the other name --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  -- Shaare Tefillah --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  -- I see it there, yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  -- and I --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Oh, so we -- I didn't know that.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  -- 18 years of age.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  So, it's -- that was a Aus- -- that's a -- Shaare Tefillah was the Hebrew name but it was Austro-Hungarian Jews there or --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  [inaudible] I don't know.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  -- mostly from Austria --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  I just did the high holy day. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Uh-huh.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  But the interesting thing about it, was I was only about 18 and they had some very, very great cantors. There was Roitman, they used to have daven there and Steinberg, etcetera, and I -- so I sat down --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Which -- which Steinberg?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Moshe Steinberg.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Uh-huh.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  The Steinberg.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=3681.0,3711.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/116","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"NEIL LEVIN: Here -- here's the -- the article that said, that Beth David retains Katzman and Pollock -- and Ben Pollock --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Right.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  -- for the the High Holy Days.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Beth David, the one on Pico?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  No. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  [inaudible]\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  That one in -- in -- in Boyle Heights. And it's -- it's – associated with this.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Did they move out to --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Huh?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Did they move from [inaudible] Pico?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  No. No, no, no. They were different [inaudible.]\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Now, this refers to the conference that we were talking about, I think --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Yep.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=3711.0,3737.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/117","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"NEIL LEVIN:  -- it says -- it's 1952 and it -- board of directors of the United Synagogue wants to thank you for the seventh annual regional conference --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  -- music in the cantata. What can- -- it doesn't say, what cantata?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  That we talked about.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Is that the same one?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  It is.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  No, this is '52.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  '52.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  '52.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  [inaudible] wrote the script and person- -- my purser was with us and -- and --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  That might have been --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  -- chorus --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  -- [inaudible] -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  -- that --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Yeah. Yeah, that was not the same.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  How about the Sabbath, the -- seventh day.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  On the seventh day I wrote --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Seventh day.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  -- and I have the --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  So, this is --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  -- script here.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  -- this is a different cantata. Uh-huh.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  And here's your contract from Beth David.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Yes.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=3737.0,3773.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/118","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"NEIL LEVIN:  A very simple handwritten thing. It says, we the congregation Beth David agree to hire cantor Nathan Katzman for the high holy day services for the total sum of $3,000 including Sukkos.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Which -- which -- which was very, very --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Now, does that mean -- does mean that they were hiring you and paying you $3,000 and also paying you Sukkos?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Sukkos, they gave me --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  I mean, they're going to give you a Sukkos?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  -- a -- a bonus. They gave a bonus. They gave $500 a bonus.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  [inaudible.]\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Nowadays they don't say hire they say engage.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Engage, yeah. Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  It's -- it's interesting but they said I was the highest paid in there --","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=3773.0,3802.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/119","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"NEIL LEVIN:  Well, $3,000 in 1946 is an enormous amount --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  That's pretty good money.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  -- of money.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  It's enormous amount of money.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Yeah. Yeah, that would be like $25- now.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  At least.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  And Ben Pollock was with me there.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Yeah. I guess they only paid that kind of money out here.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  No, they pay $5,000.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Back East they paid more than here.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  In those days, in '46?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Oh, in '46. No.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  November '46 --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  No, no.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  -- right after the war.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=3802.0,3820.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/120","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"NATHAN KATZMAN:  Can I tell you an interesting that comes to mind, while you read? I just remembered --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Tell me.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  -- before I -- after I did this I -- and there were no congregations except Sinai that could pay me a living wage --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Uh-huh.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  -- so I did a High Holy Day in the Pan Pacific. Pan Pacific was a tremendous [inaudible] and they're a very large space. And I had a -- a -- a wonderful choir. I did the High Holy Day and in the audience, there was Ben Blue. Does that mean anything to you?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  No.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  The comedian?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Blen Bluet?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Ben Blue. Slapstick [inaudible] --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Ben Blue. B-l-u-e.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  No.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=3820.0,3853.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/121","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"NATHAN KATZMAN:  No? And then there was an admiral and there was a -- a -- a woman by the name of Ann Rosenthal who became later on the president of William Morris Agency. Now on the pulpit I appeared tall and with the hat, so -- and she called me and said I'd like you to come down and I want to discuss something with you. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Mm-hmm.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  And then she said by the way, how tall are you? So, I said 5'6\", at that time I was 5'6\". So, she said, oh, so I knew there was a problem.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Uh-huh.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=3853.0,3883.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/122","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"NATHAN KATZMAN:  But when I came there -- so she said, you know, I loved you [inaudible], love it. However, says, you're short. She said, you know, so I -- usually I'm very -- you know, I -- humble, I don't say anything, and then she says -- so I said to her, however, I said, there is James Cagney, there are others, I said to her, not so tall.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Yoshe Schmitt.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  So -- no. So, she said to me --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Yeah, he was good.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  -- yes, yes, cantor, I want to tell you something. Yes, but you know for them we do certain things, you know, we build up, he said and if there's a -- a star playing with them --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Uh-huh.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  -- a -- a lady --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  She has to do without shoes --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  No, no. She's without shoes or the --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Without the high heels.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=3883.0,3919.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/123","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"NATHAN KATZMAN: -- build up --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  -- but so I -- and then said I'll give you an instance, she says. Victor Borge came to us and he wanted us to handle him. So we said to him, just go and get yourself a name, a reputation, and two weeks later he happened to probably audition for --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Mm.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  -- Bing Crosby, who had the craft. And they paid him $3,000, she said. But, that's Victor Borge. So, what I'm trying to tell you, she says, get a reputation.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  I have to tell you a story about short and tall. Around 1946 or '7, I think it was here, I had done a series of concerts for Hadassah, for each chapter, there were 30 chapters, I went through all over town doing my --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Mm-hmm.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=3919.0,3961.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/124","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:\u003c/strong\u003e -- schtick for their program. I was engaged for the -- well it happened Hadassah was involved in a memorial tribute to Stephen Wise, who had passed away around that time, '46, '47 -- and so they asked me would I do the solo. They were doing a special script and memorializing Stephen Wise after all the big -- you know, founder of the American Jewish Congress and Stephen Wise School of Rabbinics.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eSo, I come and the -- the narrators for this event were Vincent Price and Edward G. Robinson. So we got together, it was at Temple Israel. So, we got together before the event to figure out where we'll stand and juxtaposition, who and what, and Edward G. Robinson says, I'm not going to stand next to him. You know, he was 5'4\", Vincent Price was 6'5\". So, they put Price on this end and Robinson on that end and I had the pulpit in the middle.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=3961.0,4012.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/125","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"NEIL LEVIN:  You know cantor -- he just retired now in -- oh, Curt Silberman. You know Curt -- Curt Silberman --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Yes.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  -- in --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Yeah, yeah, yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  -- you know, he was from Mu- -- from Germany.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  He spells it with a B, right --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  -- Silberman.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=4012.0,4023.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/126","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"NEIL LEVIN:  Yeah, Silberman with the t- -- he -- he just retired recently in New Jersey but -- but -- in the synagogue where he was, there was a -- a problem there with the rabbi, didn't want the hazzan to be -- stand -- to -- so they the beam a -- a -- it recessed, so that the hazzan wouldn't be higher than the rabbi. They had actually built it that way.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Yeah, yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Now, this is -- it says Cantor Katzman to speak at the cantor's convention, cantor's Assembly in New York, so you gave a talk --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Yes.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  -- at one of the conventions?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  [inaudible.]\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  What did you talk about?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  On -- about the -- the music --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Ma- --","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=4023.0,4056.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/127","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"NATHAN KATZMAN:  -- and also the -- what the modern cantor has to be in addition to just a -- being a hazzan and chanting once a week. And --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  What year -- what year did you talk there. It doesn't say here.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Must have been --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  In the '50s.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  In the '50s?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  In the -- the late '50s.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  It was in the -- yes.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Grossinger's or --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Oper- --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  -- one of those?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=4056.0,4074.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/128","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"NATHAN KATZMAN:  I just want to go on to tell you, one of the things that you might, if you want to -- want to mention, is that I appeared with Ben Pollock and an orchestra, etcetera, on the -- and Ben-Gurion came down and was -- and it must have been in '48, thereafter --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Uh-huh.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  -- '49 and Schwartz was on -- and Edward G. Robinson was there and the -- it was for the first anniversary --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  In 1940.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Where was that?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Hollywood Bowl.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Mm.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  I think '4- -- '49.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  '48.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  It must have been.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  '48, '49, yeah, it would have been '49.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  '49.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  No. I was in '40- --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Yeah. Now, here --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  In '40 Robert Merrill was the soloist at the Hollywood Bowl and I conducted my choir, then my choir from the VJCC --","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=4074.0,4119.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/129","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"NEIL LEVIN:  Where -- in '49?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  In '48.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  '48.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  For the Hollywood Bowl, they had that -- it was there when Israel had first been recognized as a state.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  No, that -- I'm sorry that was the first time between --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  [inaudible] --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  -- I have to tell you --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  -- [inaudible] Robert Merrill was there.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Yeah, but Ben-Gurion came down. That was the first time that he was in the [Hebrew] --","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=4119.0,4136.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/130","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JULIUS BLACKMAN:  Well, I can tell you Robert Merrill was there --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  All right.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  -- because I was standing next to him, we were schmoozing\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  I'm not going to disagree.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Could of -- could of been two different occasions.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  I think it was -- must have been two different occasions.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  One on the occasion, one on the anniversary maybe.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Anniversary, right.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  That one '49.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  But you're not talking about the anniversary --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  No.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  -- you're talking about the --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  I'm talking about the occasion.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Oh, that's --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  -- that's two -- that's a different thing. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  -- that would be --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  [inaudible] yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  [inaudible]\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  -- would have to be --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  But -- and you conducted -- was -- is the chorus made up from --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Well it was a chorus mainly -- I had a 45-voice choir, the VJCC --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Uh-huh.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=4136.0,4160.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/131","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JULIUS BLACKMAN:  -- and we took a number of professionals to give it a little more sound, and we had the choir there. Merrill was the soloist --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Uh-huh.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  -- and he did some, you know, a couple of things including an operatic aria. I think he did the La Juive thing -- no, he didn't because --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Couldn't have --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  -- he's a baritone, that's a --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Now, you -- you were honored here by the Jewish Theological Seminary. It says, at the commencement of June 19th -- what -- what year -- oh, that was here at -- at -- at University of Judaism. And you received an award from them.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=4160.0,4187.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/132","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"NATHAN KATZMAN:  Yes.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Well, Nathan --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Yes.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  -- well, I'm -- I'll tell you why, because I was in -- a student --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Uh-huh.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  -- you know, I graduated from University of Judaism and I and just two other people --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  An education, isn't it --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  -- well -- yeah, yeah -- were the outstanding students and it -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  He was --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  -- I have the letter\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  -- he was the co-valedictorian.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  So, there -- that --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Here's -- here's one of the --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  -- advertisements. Now, for the Wilshire Ebell.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Oh --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Here let's get this --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  -- that's from --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  -- on camera.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  -- that group --","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=4187.0,4211.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/133","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"NEIL LEVIN:  Yeah. That's what you were talking about before.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  -- that you mentioned.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  That's the chorus you were talking about?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003e NATHAN KATZMAN:  No, no.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  No? \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  That was the --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  That's from the Yiddish Culture Club.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  The Yiddish Culture Club.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Oh, this is the Yiddish Culture Club.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  And is --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  You know it was --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  1947 --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  -- yeah, yeah. Oh, this is Avrom Reyzen?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  That's right.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Avrom Reyzen?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  I...\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  You mean they had [inaudible] speaking there or...\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Yes.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Yeah.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=4211.0,4227.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/134","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"NEIL LEVIN:  -- reading poetry or what?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Yeah. Reading.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  They were very big.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  [inaudible] reading, [inaudible] was reading.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  And with Wilshire Ebell --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Wilshire Ebell --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  -- and what we did -- yes. And I'll tell you about -- and I did my [Hebrew] --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  That was when [inaudible] see him at the --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  -- program.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  I did few other things. And Bonnie was very impressed.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  We did -- when we did the pantomime of that script and in the background was Dave Deros singing [singing] in Hebrew.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  No, no, I --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Was it you?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  It was Dave I thought.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  No, no, I sang [Hebrew]. But that might have been another time. This -- what is that?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  This is Warsaw Ghetto --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Oh, I wrote --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  -- memorial evening but it doesn't give a date but it's --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  In '50s.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=4227.0,4265.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/135","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"NEIL LEVIN:  -- it's going to cost 25 cents so -- [laughing] -- it must have been earlier than the '50s if -- well, [inaudible] pictured here -- Harry Lang --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Yes.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  -- and R- -- Rabbi Kramer --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Oh --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Billy Kramer.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Yeah. Bill Kramer.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  -- William Kramer and Hirsch Kagen survivors of Vilna ghetto and Nathan Katzman, Hollywood Temple --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  -- with Irving Riskin.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Yes.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  But it doesn't say when -- what --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  I -- I -- I cooperated with Alvin -- does it say there Alvin Factor?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  No.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Oh, then I -- I have something else.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  But I wonder whether this is -- whet- -- is this the '50s or the 60's? Or are they '40 -- late '40s or ear- -- early '50s?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=4265.0,4300.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/136","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"NATHAN KATZMAN:  F- -- early '50s, I would say.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  And it's still was -- they charged the 25 cents to come to --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Really?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Yeah. Admission 25 cents.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Oh.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Now, here -- the Sentinel --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Yes.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  That's in Chicago.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  -- in Chicago --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Yes.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  -- this is interesting because it says here, Congressman Sa- -- this is in 1945 --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  -- and --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  You'll find --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  -- it says --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  -- that --","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=4300.0,4323.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/137","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"NEIL LEVIN:  -- America's Ang- -- largest Anglo-Jewish weekly at --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Yes. It's --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  That's funny. At that time it's -- if -- if it was true --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  I think it was --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  -- but anyway --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  -- true --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  It was.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  It was true.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  They were the largest --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  The largest Anglo- --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Yes.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  -- really?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Larger than --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  They did a great --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  -- the -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  -- job.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  -- any -- any papers in New York --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Very pop- --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  -- or --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Yeah. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  It was very popular.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Yes.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  So you -- this was the 35th anniversary --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  What was his name? Jack something.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Jack --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Fishbein.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Jack -- Jack --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Jack --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  -- Feldman.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Yeah. And if I tell you --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Fishbein -- Fishbein --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  -- he's still -- he's still there.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Fishbein --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Is Jack still -- really?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  No kidding. I know him well.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  And he's still there, or at least he was a -- when I asked a year or so ago. But here, you did a program there, I see.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=4323.0,4359.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/138","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"NATHAN KATZMAN:  Yes.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Uh-huh.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  I -- I -- I was quite often there doing programs with them.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Well, some of the -- some of these names -- yeah, here he is. Here's a picture of Fishbein, editor and publisher of the Sentinel -\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  -- he's still around and --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Well, he did a great job with that paper.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Harry Fisher, Judge Harry Fisher. Did you know him?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Right.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  He was a very famous judge.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Right.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  I remember him.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  One of the most famous judges --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  And you had --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Mann, Rabbi Mann from --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Mann, Rabbi --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  -- from Sinai.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  -- Mann -- Lo- -- Louis --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Louis Mann.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  -- Mann.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Oh, geez.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  And the other side you'll see it was honoring Bloom --","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=4359.0,4385.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/139","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"NEIL LEVIN:  Saul Bloom.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  -- [inaudible] --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Yeah, yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  -- [inaudible.]\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Yeah, yeah, yeah. And here is something the Orthodox Relief Committee at the Jewish con- --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  No.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  That's just a --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  That's [inaudible]. Okay.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  -- program that you gave. I --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Yeah. I did that -- a lot of them you'll find that I --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Uh-huh.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  -- did a lot of -- I never took a dime for --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  A lot of programs.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  A lot of programs.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Yeah. And these are programs, they're self-evident so we can -- now, here it talks about the witch.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Oh.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  What's that about?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  That was when I was a student at University of Judaism and Helfman was the musical director --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Right.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  -- they're in charge of music and Zemach. Benjamin Zemach--\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Mm-hmm.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  -- who may be still alive. He must be a hundred years old. I said -- so I did all of these shows that they would produce. And so in the witch, you know, is a [Hebrew], the [Hebrew].","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=4385.0,4435.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/140","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"NEIL LEVIN:  This is Helfman.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  See -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Helfman wrote it?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  No.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  No.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  No. I tell you what they did.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eULIUS BLACKMAN:  I think Helfman directed --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Some -- some --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  -- the music.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  -- some music. Some, yeah. The music -- and so, but he -- it was done -- put together. And it was really a group -- a big group -- and it was done at the Wilshire Ebell.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  But what is it? It's an operetta?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Operetta.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  And but --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Operetta --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  -- written by -- who wrote the music for it?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  They had -- from various people but Helfman just --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Oh, I see --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Helfman started a program --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  -- I see. I -- so, who put it together?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Helfman.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Helfman.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=4435.0,4465.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/141","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"NEIL LEVIN:  He put it together and somehow—\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003e[talking over each other, inaudible]\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Okay. But that's still -- so, I still ask where -- what -- who -- and the story, he -- he --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  The story was the -- The Keshifah?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  The Keshifah, so meaning he did it in English or --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  It -- it was -- I --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  In here? You did here in English?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Yes. At the Wilshire Ebell.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  All right. Now --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  We did it there for two --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  -- my question --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  -- nights and then --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  -- as usual, where is -- could we lay our hands on the music from that? The way he put together, the --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Okay. The only way that I can do that is to go down to University of Judaism and find out from them.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Forget it. [laughing]\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  You -- you want to have it?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  No. But first place, it's -- they wouldn't know. I -- I -- I've tried these things already.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  They were very lousy in that, I must say.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Second place they've moved; it's not the same building as it was in those days.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  It's a beautiful music.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  And the music is still in boxes --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  In boxes.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  -- over there. I went over there --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Yeah. Maybe it's there --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  -- and it's a shame --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  -- but it wouldn't -- no, but, you don't -- you wouldn't have a copy of it?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  No.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=4465.0,4509.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/142","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"NEIL LEVIN:  Of the [Hebrew]—\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  No, no.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  -- which --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  I didn't keep it.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  And you wouldn't have it?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  No. I wasn't involved with that, I looked for it.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Well, now wait a minute.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Yes.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  There's another possibility. Would it be in Helfman's collection?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  It could be.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Probably.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  All right. So, maybe I have it, then. I don't know it it's --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Take a look.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Because -- we haven't gone through the cartons.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  He done a lot. You also did, \"L'Chaim,\" a revue.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  He could have been a great composer, Helfman.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  [inaudible]\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  -- I mean, he just -- I feel sorry because he divided himself so many -- so many ways from Saturday --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  -- but he was conducting and doing this and doing that and then he --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  He was at Brandeis.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  -- really could have --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  -- [inaudible] --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  -- really great. Yeah, he could have done great but he -- he had to --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  -- make a living and he wasn't getting any money.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=4509.0,4542.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/143","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"NEIL LEVIN:  Here -- here's what you were talking about, the -- your -- your committee that you formed. Here, here it is. As of 1955 it says Music Advisory Committee, UJ—\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  I had been the chairman of the music advisory council, the formation to -- to -- to form it --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Uh-huh.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  -- and we put on the first concert with Toch and the other things. I was pushing also the Cantors Assembly because I felt that the Cantors Assembly should be identified as the --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Mm-hmm.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  -- spokespeople for Jewish music. There were elements in the university who weren't so crazy about having the Cantors Assembly so far in the forefront, so they were pushing Max Helfman. I’d just come to town. In fact, we had had Max Helfman give a -- conduct a course for composing for the synagogue. There were a number of us that took the course, Sam Fordis, myself, Leon Bennett, a number of others --","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=4542.0,4592.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/144","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"NEIL LEVIN:  Mm-hmm.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  -- and they wanted Helfman to take over as chairman of the Music Council. So, I told them if they want Helfman that they should have Helfman and he should chair the Music Council but I -- you know, I wouldn't be partaking in it any more. So I withdrew. Well, the members of the Music Council were a little bit unhappy about that, Sarah Kapenski  [inaudible name]—\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Mm-hmm.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  -- and some of the others went to the university and they said, look, we were involved with Julie Blackman and will work with Julie Blackman. We don't know this fellow. He's maybe good but we don't know. So we -- we just don't want to be involved, so let him form his own music council, and that's it. So then they came to me and they asked me would I re-involve myself in the Music Council --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN: Mm-hmm.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  -- which I did, and so we put together this Toch thing. And the -- with the same kind of a concert. Here this time we had a --","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=4592.0,4637.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/145","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"NEIL LEVIN:  And Toch was the -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003e JULIUS BLACKMAN:  The Vanity of Vanities.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  I have the music --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  I mean --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  -- by the way. That I can do --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  You do have the mu- -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  -- I have the music --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Was that -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  -- and I can record it.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  -- by the way, the -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  That's the only place where -- that I know of where the music is.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  I was going to ask you, it wasn't -- it wasn't ever published?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  No. I have the music. And he gave it to me and he gave me a Songs to Martha, which he wrote, which he wanted me to have, apologizing that he didn't write it for the -- the Vanity of Vanities. He used soprano and tenors.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  He used --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  -- he said the way --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  -- He used text from Proverbs- --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  -- music involved --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  -- from Proverbs?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Huh?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Text from Proverbs or from [inaudible]\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Vanity of Vanities. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  It's Proverbs.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  From the --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  [inaudible]\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  No. That's Proverbs --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  That's Proverbs. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  No.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  It's from the --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Ecclesiastes.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Ecclesiastes --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Ecclesiastes --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  -- yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  -- Kohellet. Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Kohellet. Yeah. So, and he apologized to me. Originally, he was going to write it for baritone solo and I was --","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=4637.0,4678.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/146","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"NEIL LEVIN:  Is it -- is it good -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  -- going to do --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  -- is it in English?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  -- the baritone solo. Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  In English or Hebrew.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  He- -- English.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  It's good work?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  It's a beautiful work.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  So, why -- and -- probably never been --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  I don't know why.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  -- because --","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=4678.0,4686.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/147","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JULIUS BLACKMAN:  The univer- -- I at that time, frankly, I was a little unhappy with the university. I felt that they were really trying to push me out. I said I don't need to be pushed out, I can --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Mm-hmm.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  -- walk out on my own.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Mm-hmm.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Which I did. I sent them a letter of resignation. And then they did this program that Helfman and -- and Tsomat (?) put together, this musical comedy kind of thing. I forget --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  L'chaim.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  -- L'chaim, whatever it is. It didn't -- wasn't all that --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  No --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  -- sensational and went on the Music Council and I --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  How long did -- did the -- did the council last? I mean, when --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  I don't know. After I left it lasted maybe --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Eric Zeisl, I see, was here --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  -- a year or two.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  -- on the council too.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Yeah. Yeah. But we had some pretty [inaudible] --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Eric Zeisl --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  -- [inaudible] council.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  -- George Wyle.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Well, George Wyle was from -- you know, from the VJCC days that I put on the council.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=4686.0,4728.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/148","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"NEIL LEVIN:  And Castelnuevo-Tedesco \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Tedesco was on.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Temkin. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003e \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Temkin was on.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Eudice Shapiro. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Eudice was on.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  David Rose.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  David Rose -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN: — Irwin Newfeld.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  -- Victor Geld --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Neufeld. [ph]  And Sylvia Neufeld.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Sylvia was on.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Leon Kirshner.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Who?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Leon Kirchner.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Leon Kirchner was on, right.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Uh-huh.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Yeah. In fact, he was going to do the -- he was going to be the next composer to do our work. And I said -- but I wasn't involved anymore and --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  So, it didn't happen.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  -- then I did this other thing and it never came to fruition.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Uh-huh. Now, this picture here -- is a Seder. Where is it?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=4728.0,4760.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/149","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"NATHAN KATZMAN:  Oh, in the Boyle Heights, the old folks' home for the aged --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Uh-huh.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  [inaudible]\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  -- and I was very young guy. And a matter of fact, I also did the -- a -- a picture, which was called The Story of the American Immigrant.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Yeah. You mean -- what do you mean a picture?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  A picture, right there.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Oh, here -- here.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  I did -- I did a picture there, The Story of the American Immigrant. I did think I -- maybe it's mentioned there. And it was in that [inaudible].\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  You mean -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  No, this is --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  -- not this.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN  -- one of the -- no. This is one of the -- which was called -- we had Lillith  --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Uh-huh.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  -- and Ben Pollock. Ben Pollock --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Uh-huh.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  -- you know --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Uh-huh.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  -- an operetta. And we had Monish. You know Peretz’s Monish?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Yes.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  So, I was the --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  But who wrote the music for that? Achron?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  No. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  No.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Because there is an Achron Monish.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=4760.0,4803.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/150","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"NATHAN KATZMAN:  I'll tell you -- no, I'll tell you what happened. Ben Pollock, may he rest in peace, you know, took from here -- from here, like Helfman and put it together. So, that --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  -- You know the song [inaudible] [singing]\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Who -- who's song is that?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  He said -- the darn thing is, Weinberg said that you put in the [inaudible.]\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Weinberg\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Now, what about this picture. This is --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  It's the same probably.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  -- this is all from the same show?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  It's all -- yeah. It's me and -- that's me there.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  From the same --","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=4803.0,4830.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/151","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"NATHAN KATZMAN:  With a soprano -- what a soprano. These are the same from -- from -- from --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Oh -- oh, these ones in costume.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Yes. It's from the same.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Here obviously from that -- from Monish.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  And also Lilith.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Lilith and Monish. A rabbi cantor's at the air base.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Oh, yes.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Yes.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  What was the story there?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  We went -- yes. I -- I also did some USO shows.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=4830.0,4857.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/152","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"NEIL LEVIN:  During -- during the war?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Yes.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  After the war?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Yes, yes.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  We --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Yes.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  We -- or -- no, it must have been after.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Yeah, yes. I did some USO shows.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Did you do any?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  And after that.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN: Now here is the picture of the Bnai Zion choir.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN: That’s right.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN: I’ll just read the list of names and see if it recalls any memories here.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=4857.0,4875.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/153","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"NEIL LEVIN:  Joe Gang, Maurice Brenner, Audrey Lazarus,  Revetta Goldstein, Nathan Katz- -- Nathan Katzman, Ann Furshteyn, Abraham Bornshteyn, [ph] Max Leonard, Edward Sachs, Sol Kodish. [ph]\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Mildred Levy. Even that name sounds familiar to me. Marion Tommen, [ph] Lillian Newman, Ben Pollock, director of the choir --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  -- they have a picture of him. Lillian Sachs, Charlotte Paradise, Mrs. Blumenthal and then -- Miss -- and Esther Kaufman. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Who was that soprano? \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  It doesn't say what year that is.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Soprano, what's here name?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Cohen.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Cohen. Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Mildred Cohen.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Mildred Cohen --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Mildred Cohen.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  -- she was marvelous.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=4875.0,4913.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/154","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"NEIL LEVIN:  Is she the one that went to Australia?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  She may have. I met her once in Palm Springs --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Very wealthy—\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  -- many years later.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  No, no, no. Something rings a bell --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Beautiful soprano.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  -- then she came back. But they moved to --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Lovely --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  -- Australia and came back.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  -- soprano. Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Well, that's just a -- obviously a pic- -- that's a picture of you.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  That's over there.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=4913.0,4927.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/155","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"NEIL LEVIN:  Clear -- yeah. That we don't need. Yeah. Now, this photograph here, do -- isn't identified. Here I show it to the camera.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Oh.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  There's a -- there's a story to that. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  What's the story? Tell me the story.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  The story is that Grace and I in 1958 visited Israel because we took our son --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Uh-huh.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  -- to study there and then we made the rounds of some of the charities --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Uh-huh.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  -- and one of them was the blind children in Jerusalem, the Institute --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Uh-huh.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  -- for the blind children. And we were so impressed with the progress that they were making. And suddenly we both cried, and I decided that I'm going to do something then. And so I organized the group here that used to 50-, $75,000 --","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=4927.0,4975.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/156","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"NEIL LEVIN:  Uh-huh.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  -- a year and send it to --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Yeah, that's very good.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  -- and my -- my concerts from -- from the Ebell also used to benefit that.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  What about this picture here?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  This picture here is okay. Rabbi Wagner, who is on the right --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Uh-huh.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  To the left. To your left.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eC:  -- in this picture.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  They don't make them like that, a talmudist --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Uh-huh.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  And now -- that was an active Philippe- -- Andre Philippe and what we did, we used to do Shakespeare and the bible and Rabbi Wagner would interpret, you know, and show the connections between the bible and the --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Uh-huh.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=4975.0,5007.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/157","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"NATHAN KATZMAN:  -- and the -- the Exodus. And I would sing, specifically the English airs, you know.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  And you did this --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  [inaudible]\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  -- you did it on kind of a continuing basis?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  We had -- yes. And we had, you know, a flute and we had, you know, a piano. And this was done in -- in a big back yards and -- and gardens.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Now, I see a picture here but it's really like a postcard.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  What? What do you mean?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  From Holland.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Oh. That -- that's --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  It's empty.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  -- then that's my -- my family.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  It looks like your wife here --","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=5007.0,5033.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/158","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"NATHAN KATZMAN:  Yeah. And --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Is it?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN: -- and myself and my son, probably.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Yeah. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Yes. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  So --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  And that's [inaudible.]\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  -- all right, it's just one of those touristy things here.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  And this snapshot [inaudible], I'm just curious, what -- what -- where was this --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Oh, that was --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  -- this concert?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  -- the orc- -- orchestra. That was -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  -- the orchestra that I did, symphony orchestra --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Where?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  -- in La Mirada. And this is -- is Wilshire Ebell, as you can see.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Oh, that's Wilshire Ebell?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Wilshire Ebell. Yes.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=5033.0,5054.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/159","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"NEIL LEVIN:  Okay.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  And I did quite a number --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  -- of concerts.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Uh-huh. It says -- here talks about students that you had. Now, we'll talk about both of you. You had students too. We all had students.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Yeah. Morey Glick over here.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Uh, here it says, this is 1950, from the Bureau of --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Excuse me.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  -- Jewish Education --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Yes.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=5054.0,5072.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/160","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"NEIL LEVIN:  -- it talks about your students, Irvin Sepkowitz.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Yes. And Avram Schwartz. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Avram Schwartz. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  [inaudible]\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  They've been considered for honorable mention --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  -- whatever it is. Over the years how -- you had many students?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Yes. First of all, I'll purport to that. This was done in --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  You're talking about cantorial students or bar mitzvah students?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  No. I don't mean bar mitzvah. No, no. I -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  In cantorial. I did --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  -- I mean -- I want to emphasize --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Yeah, okay. No --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  -- I mean serious --","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=5072.0,5095.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/161","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"NATHAN KATZMAN:  -- let me tell you can- -- can- --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  -- cantorial students.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Cantorial I didn't bother too much. So if, Bachlund who is the tenor right now --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Who?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  -- the tenor --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Who?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Bachlund, Gary Bachlund, with the opera, the Metropolitan Opera, he was my student in hazzones.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Mm-hmm.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=5095.0,5108.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/162","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"NATHAN KATZMAN:  He was -- and there was another named Ruben, and my son. Other that I didn't want to take. Now, as far as -- also, I don't know if it's worthwhile mentioning, for the 17 years I was the principal of our school --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  No. I --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  -- at Beth El, yes.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Were you a principal of the Hebrew School?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Of the Hebrew and Sunday with 550 students, with 36 teachers. And I didn't get one dime, with only my wife to help me. And we had a real school because it was tops. They said that they won the awards --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  For that they rewarded him by not paying him --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  -- his pension.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  No, it's a long story.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Well, that would -- I'll talk to you about later.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Yes. Yes. What else --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Everything's okay now?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  When -- no. I taught 50 bar mitzvahs a year.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  All by myself, 50 mitzs -- and the cantor said you're spoiling it for us. And -- but now, I -- I’d like to mention this. If someone was to ask you what do I really cherish, what memories from my being a hazzan. And there were many, many compliments. Even  Raisa she came once for -- to a Kol Nidre and I'll tell a little anecdote. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAnd she passed and we shook hands and she complimented me, said you should be in the opera over there. She was a very serious woman. And so, I said, I – “Now that I know”, was false humility. “You should have said something”, which my wife said, as I said “no, no, no, no” hoping that she would say, “Oh, I can't imagine what you” -- so my wife, said to me one time, “Why do you do this? Say, why do you not say, thank you.” I said just because it -- why -- why say, no, I wouldn't say so and so and I began to do that, eventually.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=5108.0,5208.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/163","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JULIUS BLACKMAN:  It took him a while.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Yes.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  It take --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Yes. Yes, like 50 studen- -- yeah. So, what I'm saying, what I have and I that always cherish these memories is my bar mitzvah and b’not mitzvah because some of them are were judges and -- and lawyers and whatnot and to this day. Not one, not one has ever said a disparaging word about me because I have -- I had a way with children.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  That part I didn't know about your career.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Oh, yes.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  ..about education and so forth.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Yes.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  And -- and --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  That's why he got the --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  -- and I wrote --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  awarded the… \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Uh-huh.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  -- every year I wrote a different script on -- on popular Broadway sh- -- shows, like My Fair Esther for Purim - My Fair Esther instead of My Fair Lady.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  And you did that just your --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  South -- South Pacific --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  -- you put it together --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  -- separate to get the music and also --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  What did you do for South Pacific?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=5208.0,5256.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/164","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"NATHAN KATZMAN:  -- some issues with chorus and orchestra, we had to do that.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  In English?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  In English, yes.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Yeah. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  But --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  This is -- already in '57, they're talking about a -- a -- a Veterans Day program. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Yes.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  That you did. Did you do a lot --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  I did a lot.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  A lot of those kinds of things in the --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  I -- I -- you'll see there I did the -- for the --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  City wide, you know --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  City wide.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  -- things like that.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Jewish and non-Jewish.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  [Hebrew] type of --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Both, everywhere.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=5256.0,5284.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/165","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JULIUS BLACKMAN:  Except in this town it's difficult to be [Hebrew.]\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Yeah. Well, that's the same thing everywhere. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Everybody says that -- yeah. No, but I see a lot of that here. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  What -- while --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  -- weekend I --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  -- while you're looking, I'm going to tell you something which Julie --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Here.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  -- I had to thank him for that. He got me to sing the two --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Oh, yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  -- eternal light programs.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=5284.0,5306.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/166","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"NEIL LEVIN:  Now, was that radio --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  [inaudible]\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  -- or television?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  From here.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Radio.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Two. Radio, yes.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Yeah, we'd been fighting for years --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Why you reading? \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  -- that shouldn't be -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Oh, I'm sorry. Go ahead.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  I'm listening.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  And it shouldn't be -- at the East Coast I think Bob Siegel was on every -- every week --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  And [inaudible].\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  -- we got this voice and put him -- and you get these two voices, [singing] --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Okay. Now --","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=5306.0,5325.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/167","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JULIUS BLACKMAN:  So, we per- -- we persisted -- demanded that they -- that these -- should be -- the Assembly should be represented, not just by two people on the East Coast, there's also the West Coast, not to mention the Midwest and all of that. So, I fought for it and demanded that they do it, and then they finally told us they'll let us have a program. So, I asked Nathan to do it.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  I know this is -- let me -- let me pin something down here. You're talking about The Eternal Light.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Yes.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  In what year/timeframe?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  It was around 19- -- between 1947 and '55 --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  All right.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  -- something like that.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  So, it was -- it's the radio type --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Yep, yep.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Produced by the Jewish Theological Seminary?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Yep.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  All right. And you -- you did these programs. Do you know much about -- let me put it this way, wha- -- what -- what else was involved that came from here? If you know of anything for the --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Very little.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  -- for the Eternal Light.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  No. These two and --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Just -- that's it --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003e[talking over each other, inaudible]\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  These two, he let me be the soloist. I was with Robert Armbruster --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Uh-huh.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  -- and the other one was -- I don't remember who and -- but they were with actors, very famous actors.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=5325.0,5387.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/168","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"NEIL LEVIN:  But there -- there was just those two times?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  These two --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Just those two times.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  -- but -- no, but the music was not shomer Yisrael One time it was --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  One time it was.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  -- one time it was -- what do you -- no, they did. No, they had --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  No, theme was always --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  -- but --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  -- [inaudible.]\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  -- but now --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Yeah. The theme song of the --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  No --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Yeah --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  -- no. There was original music, which I did. One time it was based on tehillim you know --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Wait, who wrote it?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  -- with Armbruster.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Who wrote the music?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  See, I made it up.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=5387.0,5409.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/169","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"NEIL LEVIN:  Really improvised?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  I -- I --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Improvised. Improved.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  I have a [inaudible.]\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  [inaudible]\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  But I have to tell you about the Eternal Light and this --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  I want to hear about the Eternal Light because it's important to the --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  -- very quickly -- very quickly I'm going to tell you about Eternal. And when I was in Chicago, don't remember what year, they would -- the WCFL --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Mm-hmm.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  -- which was the --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  The federation of labor [ph.]\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  -- the station and I conceived an idea of calling a program Beacon of Light --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Mm-hmm.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  -- and I wrote script, etcetera --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Mm-hmm.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  -- it's a long story, I won't bore you with it. And I got a -- an agent, well it was a friend also, to try and peddle it. And he took it to WCFL and the man was not a Jew but he liked the idea and he said, we're going to do it. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAnd at that time the Seminary didn't have anything to do with the Eternal Light. But the agent decided that -- and I got from Dean Gilkey, who was your Catholic Bishop and he was also a -- a -- a chairman -- and a chancellor of the University of Chicago and from Sol Silver and from others, you know, and they all liked the idea --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Mm-hmm.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=5409.0,5477.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/170","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"NATHAN KATZMAN:  -- but my agent said, he better go to the -- the Rabbinical Assembly and try and get their okay. That would help it.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Mm-hmm.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  And I said no. Let's not go to the Rabbinical Assembly because my friend said that to me we won't have a -- a problem. And the -- they put me off one week and so -- and now, Weinstein, you remember Weinstein, Robert Weinstein?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Jacob Weinstein?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Oh, yeah, yeah --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Jacob Weinstein. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  -- yeah --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003e[talking over each other, inaudible]\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  -- yeah, Jacob Weinstein. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  He was the head and they got together at the ---\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Nice guy.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN: -- Standard club and what they did, I don't know --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  And where --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN: -- with the [inaudible.]\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  -- they'd do it?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=5477.0,5505.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/171","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"NATHAN KATZMAN:  I don't know. And -- but it took my --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  No, you said --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN: -- idea --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  -- this --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  -- they took, yes. The Rabbinical Assembly from Chicago --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Uh-huh.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  -- see because there was no such thing --","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=5505.0,5510.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/172","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"NEIL LEVIN:  But you said something about Standard Club?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Yes. They met at the Standard Club for lunch and to --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  When?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  -- discuss the idea.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  At that time?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  At that time.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  No, [inaudible] because --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  -- the Standard Club was, at that time, only -- if you weren't from --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  No, no, no --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  -- the Dichuden [ph] --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  -- no. No, no. The -- it became --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  [inaudible]\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  No, no. It was Covenant Club and then there were the others.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Covenant Club was for us.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  [inaudible]\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  And the --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  And so -- and lo and behold, about --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  You know by the way --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  -- several weeks -- I don't know how many weeks later, or months -- so I get a letter from the manager of the -- the WCFL He said, you waited too long. Here's your program and they called it Eternal Light. Well, it's interesting that I called it Beacon of Light. They said -- maybe it's a coincidence. But the format was just what I had written, what I have down. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Huh.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  So, I just thought I'd tell you.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=5510.0,5554.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/173","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"NEIL LEVIN:  But that was just that one time?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  No. But, no. It didn't -- it didn't appear though --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  It didn't appear then. It was only years later --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  -- they -- they --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  -- that they --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  -- took it over. They took -- the master suggested that to the Seminary --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  [inaudible] have to --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  -- they took it away.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  It was only after we started pushing them --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Uh-huh.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  -- demanding --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  I see.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  -- that the West Coast [inaudible.]\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  And then, of course, later it became television --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  And then later we [inaudible] --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  -- pretend like --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  -- we went to [inaudible.]\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  But I meant, I need to assemble all of the programs of the Eternal Light --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  -- that's why I'm asking.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Oh, yeah. I have some --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Nobody has a complete s- -- a complete --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  I have about eight or 10 of those at home, of the Eternal Light programs.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Yeah. Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Now, that, they also had, the University of Judaism has a lot of programs because I borrowed them -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Of the Eternal Light, yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  -- and I --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Talk to Max Vorspan, maybe he'll --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  But they're random. No, we have some too but there are a hell of a lot of programs. And here's the Yiddish Culture Club letter to you --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Oh, well --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  -- in Yiddish, so now we see --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003e[talking over each other, inaudible]\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  -- it has the names -- no, it just -- it has the —\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  They may be for life.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  It's --","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=5554.0,5598.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/174","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JULIUS BLACKMAN:  You know who --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Yeah --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  -- was involved with the Yiddish Culture Club --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Who?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  -- was Harold Schulweis's' father, Rabbi --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Moshe.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  -- Schulweis's' father.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Oh, uh-huh.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  He was very active in the club.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  He was a member of my congregation, became.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Yeah.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=5598.0,5609.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/175","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"NATHAN KATZMAN:  This is some which I did --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003e[talking over each other, inaudible]\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Now, this is interesting here.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  What?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  It's a program, 1957, and it -- what interests me here is the Ballad of the Warsaw Ghetto.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Oh, yes. I wrote it --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Music arranged and directed by Irving Riskin. Arranged and directed, both again, where was the music?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Yes.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Who composed the music?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  He got it from Nathan.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Huh?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  He got it from Nathan.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Good question. Maybe -- maybe I can find something.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Yeah, I -- if you could find --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Yes.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  -- but the Ballad of the Warsaw Ghetto --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Yes.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  -- then -- a -- you -- lyric -- oh, it -- see, it says lyrics by Alvin Factor and --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Right.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  -- Nathan Katzman.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Yes, yes.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  But it doesn't say --","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=5609.0,5645.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/176","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"NATHAN KATZMAN:  Alvin Factor was a graduate of the Goodman Theater. And I want to tell you who he was. John Factor was his father. Jake, the barber.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Oh, Jake the barber.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Yes.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  No -- nobody here knows -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  And he was a --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  -- what we're talking about --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  -- he was a nice guy --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  -- don't worry it.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  -- very nice guy and very capable. And he was a graduate of the [inaudible].\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Just on the side he was a gangster.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  No, not -- no, no, that's not him, his father.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  No. That's Jake \"The Barber\" Factor.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  I say --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN: Yes. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Sure.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Not John -- I mean not Alvin.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  No. It was Tuie [ph] or something, I forget the whole --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Yeah, yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  And then it -- you get the Jacob's Dream of Zilberts’. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Zavel Zilberts.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Zavel Zilberts.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Yes. Oh --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  It says in here.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  -- the Havdalah","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=5645.0,5685.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/177","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"NEIL LEVIN:  But that -- no --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  No, Jacob --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  -- Jacob's dream. Havdalah Also. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Oh, Havdalah Also.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  But Jacob's doing the cantata.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  And Jacob's [inaudible.] Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  But that's a published -- I think that was published.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Yeah. Jacob's dream, yes. And the Havdalah was published\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN: Of course --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Every- --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  -- every- -- everybody does Havdalah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  That's a great one.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  But the Ballad of the Warsaw Ghetto would be interesting to see what that's all about.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Yes. I may have the script --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Who -- who put --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  -- but in -- [inaudible.]\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Yeah. Here's another one. This is -- here's something what you did with children apparently. Small Fry Follies.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=5685.0,5710.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/178","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"NATHAN KATZMAN:  Oh, I did -- yeah. I called it Small Fry Follies and the purpose for that and you see there in the forward --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  -- in the forward I said was to allow children to express themselves in dance and in music, but Jewishly. So, I used to ev- -- every year a different one. Also, to raise money for the PTA, quite a bit of money. And at one time we'd have a 100, you know. And my wife did all the scenery --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Raised the --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003e[phone ringing in background]\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  -- and -- and she was very talented. All the scenery.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=5710.0,5735.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/179","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"NEIL LEVIN: Before I show you the pictures you might -- you -- just to --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Go ahead.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  -- to briefly, just --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Right, right.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  -- you mentioned two cantors in Chicago that you had forgotten before. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Oh -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Manyevitch [ph] --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  -- that was Manyevitch\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Manyvitch, an old man and a tremendous voice. And the [inaudible] what -- what all that --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Where was Manyevitch\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN: [inaudible] Manyevitch was --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Around. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  -- around, because he was already retired man. But at the age of 80-something, he had a phenomenal voice.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  And the other one?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  And that was in the Forum, there, where Truman at that time was a -- a senator, wasn't the president. And that was Stephen Wise, you know, he moved to Port -- it was something -- it was a meeting, a protest meeting something about Israel. You were with me, Grace, weren't you -- that time. So, that --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eMrs. Katzman:  [inaudible.]\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  -- Reichland [ph] was the one that I followed -- succeeded --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Mm.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  -- because the rab- -- and they said they had [inaudible]. They said that he had a phenomenal voice. Why would they leave? Because Lassen gave him a terrible, terrible time. They gave me a terrible --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN: It’s a long story.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=5735.0,5788.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/180","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"NEIL LEVIN:  I see.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Yeah. Okay. So --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  What's the picture here?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Oh, this picture, oh, I didn't --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  First off -- should --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  -- tell you?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  No. You said -- first let's get it --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Oh, oh. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  -- on the camera. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Good.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  All right. We got it?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Could it be from --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  All right.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  -- could it be from my father? Is there?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=5788.0,5800.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/181","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"NEIL LEVIN:  I don't think so.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  See, I don't --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Maybe.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  -- or could it be me --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Now take a -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  -- we -- we -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  -- here, take a look --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  -- we can't tell.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  -- and tell me what this picture is. And sit back and --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Yes, sir. Yes, sir. Yes, sir. Yes. I see this is my father. My father is here --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Uh-huh.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  -- and this was a group in Detroit. And the -- the famous musician and conductor and baritone it was -- conducted them. They were marvelous. I have some tapes, you'll hear them.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Who wa- -- who's the conductor?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  He was a baritone conductor --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Not Frohman? No. Frohman?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Dan -- Dan Frohman.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eMrs. Katzman:  Daniel Frohman.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Daniel Frohman.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Dan Frohman.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  All right.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Oh, yeah. That's [inaudible] --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  [inaudible]\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  With an h, right? F-r-o-h- --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Yes. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  -- i-n. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  F-r-o-h- -- yes, it -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Marvelous --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  -- they -- I think we have it --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Now, this intrigued me here.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=5800.0,5833.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/182","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"NATHAN KATZMAN:  [inaudible]\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  This is --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  This is my stuff --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  -- this is a -- a program --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  -- a -- a drama dance department in a review --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Oh.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  -- L'chaim --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  -- directed by -- [inaudible]\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Yes, yes --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  -- Yes --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  -- yes --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  -- music by Helfman\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  -- yes, yes.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  In 1954, what -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  What -- what --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  -- intrigued me here is something called --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Yes.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  -- the Beverly Fairfax Ballad.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  That's the one that -- that I told you about.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  What is that?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  The knishes were delicious [singing]\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Who wrote that?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  He wrote it, Max. Max Helfman.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=5833.0,5861.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/183","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JULIUS BLACKMAN:  Max Heflman.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Oh, because it was Fairfax.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  So, in other words it's --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Fairfax is --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  -- kind of a humorous re- --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  I take off [inaudible] --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  It's [inaudible.]\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Where -- where's the…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  -- full -- full time --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  -- where is that?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  -- and you know who --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Where's the copy of the music?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  -- you know who was -- with [inaudible] and --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  [inaudible]\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  -- and my partner was Kingsley's wife.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Which one? He had --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  She -- she --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eMs. Katzman:  [inaudible.] \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  -- cre- -- he's had --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  The only one --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  -- a few.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  -- the first one, that I knew.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  No, no. He's had three or four.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Oh, is that right?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  One -- one the first -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  -- but, anyhow --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  She was French?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  -- and she come --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Was this the one --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  -- and she complained --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  -- who was French?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  -- she was a head taller than he. And I was very sensitive. And she said -- and they're supposed to be lovers. He said they're lovers. So I said, come on, embrace me --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Oh, here it is --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  -- come on --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  -- Evelyn Kingsley --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  -- they [inaudible.]\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  -- yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  He said [inaudible] -- I was sensitive.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Yeah, no. This is not his present wife.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Yeah. Anyhow --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  And -- and so in other words -- it --","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=5861.0,5897.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/184","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"NATHAN KATZMAN:  Why did I show it to you? I have a review. You know, a -- a critique.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Who's Adolf Sharp? [ph]\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Yes.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  He wrote the lyrics.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Yes.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  But this was nothing that was ever published. This is only -- just for look- --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Why did I keep it --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  -- because I have a review by Shaplis [ph] Hickman who was a -- from --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Mm-hmm.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  -- a big man and the minute she points out that I was one of the -- the --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  But --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  -- but -- but you know what, would [inaudible] something like that.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Nemphi Samir [ph], yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  [inaudible]\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  And, you know, I sang that also for Neal --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  [Hebrew] --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  -- Neal was here.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Yeah, that's the --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Now, here --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  [inaudible.]\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  -- it is. [Hebrew] by -- the Milner --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  -- right.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Moshen Milner. [ph]\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Oh, so you -- you did -- divided it up.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  That and the other --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  But this particular --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  -- this particular one, the Beverly Fairfax Bu- -- Ballad, for example, this is something that we -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN: It --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  -- where'd I find?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN: -- it --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  That was --","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=5897.0,5943.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/185","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"NEIL LEVIN:  Where would I find the music for it?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  -- I doubt if there is --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  [inaudible]\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  -- it should be -- should be -- should be -- I don't know where but the University of Judaism - that's the only -- I can go down and try.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  If you had --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  It's possible.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  -- Helfman's music --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  It was charming.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  -- that would be --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  I have it.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  -- where it would be most likely.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  There's a lot of things on here, for example, Aunt Bayla. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Aunt Bayla, yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Gershon Einbender [ph.]\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Yes.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Music by Richard Newman. I don’t know if that's the same Newman I knew. And Mottel, the Cantor's Son of Shalom Aleichem.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  In other words, they did all of this on one program.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Yeah.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=5943.0,5969.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/186","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JULIUS BLACKMAN:  I want you to know, this was a follow-up of the Toch program that we did the year before.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  I -- I see, well, let's --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  This was -- that's why I get sour on the university.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  This is quite a heavy program here. I mean.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Al- -- always. Always.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  I see --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  That's a very good talent.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Yeah, it's --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Very good talent.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=5969.0,5985.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/187","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"NEIL LEVIN:  Mottel, the Cantor's Son and --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Do you know --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  -- The Chain Continues --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  -- words by Lamdon Mark Lowbry [ph] --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Yes.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  -- things like that --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Yes.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  [inaudible]\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  -- quite a num- -- number of things here that are not published of Helfman, On Guard, a dance and music by Max Helfman. Don't know anything about those. Examinations by Abraham Levinson.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Mean anything to you?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Yeah, well --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  To somebody -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  It does to navy but --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  A whole lot of stuff here.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  -- [inaudible] program.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  There's a whole lot of stuff here that --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  And all -- yeah. Not -- one time it was at the Biltmore ball which was a very large hotel at that time and one of the classic hotels here --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Uh-huh.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  -- and they honored Milhaud, and Milhaud came and so we did his Lekha Dodi and we did some other -- other stuff --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Oh, that's right. Neal.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN: -- at the -- at the Biltmore ball.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  University honored him, yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Yeah, I did some -- that's right, under the auspices of the university. They did a lot of wonderful things that I want you to learn -- know that it was that time it was an outstanding university, that if -- if I mentioned names, you know, the -- the greatest professors.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  You talking about UJ?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Huh?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  It's deteriorated.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=5985.0,6053.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/188","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"NEIL LEVIN:  Now, it wasn't -- there's nothing there now --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  [inaudible]\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  -- I mean this type of programs you wouldn't find --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  No.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  No.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Uh- --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  [inaudible]\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  I was there for an elder hostel --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  No.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  -- they did a --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  No, no.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  -- program on a Wednesday night, it was just the piano's playing Beethoven, Bach and stuff and no -- nothing Jewish in it.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Yeah. Here's a -- some -- here's a --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  What?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  -- this --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  What do you -- what --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  -- must be from the Forverts.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  What is it? Yes.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  [inaudible]\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  1946.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  That must have been when I davened in that shul.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  In 1946. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Maybe.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Yeah. Now, most of these are -- this picture here, who is this? Hold the picture up here for the cam- --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Who is this? This is Rabbi Wagner. This is John Factor. This is Nathan Katzman.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Ah-ha.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=6053.0,6093.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/189","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"NATHAN KATZMAN:  And we were discussing a concert, you know, that's why I kept it and scholarships were there from the council.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Now --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Oh, we also did -- did you ever hear of the Merenbloom [ph] orchestra?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  No.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Then --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  What --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN: -- they --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Merenbloom?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Oh, yes. And you know who his people were that -- the soloists, the biggest, Jascha Heifetz, and then all -- all kind the -- the greatest performers really, outstanding.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Most of these --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  So, we did it in my shul.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  -- we can --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  They had a wonderful program, the shul.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  All right. Most of these we can -- are self-evident. I don't need the explanation.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Throw it away.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=6093.0,6130.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/190","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"NEIL LEVIN:  Let's see if there's anything I need to find to know here. These we'll put on. Yeah. Here.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Who is -- what's this?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  What’s it of? That was when we did a -- from the – the, we talked about the literary group --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Uh-huh.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  [inaudible.]","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=6130.0,6149.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/191","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"NATHAN KATZMAN:  -- she was a very great -- you must have known about this --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  [inaudible]\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  -- and we did a -- a program at the Wilshire Ebell.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  What's her name?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Katya [ph]. Was it K—\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Yeah, yeah, yeah --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  -- Katya [inaudible.]\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  -- yeah. Uh-huh.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  I thought you had [inaudible.]\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  [inaudible] yes [inaudible.]\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  [inaudible]\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  They don't make them like that.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Now, here --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Yes. What do you got?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=6149.0,6168.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/192","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"NEIL LEVIN:  -- [inaudible] this is self-evident, but this -- this is some of the things in your scrapbook. I see the -- for example --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  No, this is --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  -- from when you went to Europe, which you talked about last --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  I did, I did…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN: -- I did about three, four times.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  On the -- on this -- on the -- you -- you -- you --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  I --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  -- conducted services on the --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  On the --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  -- ship, didn't you?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  -- on the Queen -- Queen Mary.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Queen Mary?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Yes. Yes.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  That was -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Yes. And I also did the concert after that because the president of the Montreal Stock Exchange, MacDougall --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Uh-huh.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  -- knocked on my door after he heard me on Friday in that shul. And he asked me if I would do a -- participate in a program, in a concert for the -- the disabled seamen, because every time, you know, is it --","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=6168.0,6209.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/193","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"NEIL LEVIN:  Uh-huh.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  -- [inaudible.]\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Now, this -- this is a picture of --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  What is that?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  -- B’nai Zion.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  This is a picture -- no. Beth El.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  That's here?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Here.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  yes. Here it talks about the -- the revue that some -- the -- the -- the -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Which one?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  -- the performance, [hebrew - Zemach’s?] revue.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Oh.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  L'chaim. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  And -- and did you read what he said --","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=6209.0,6231.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/194","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"NEIL LEVIN:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  -- about the -- the -- the --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  [inaudible] too ecstatic --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  I --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  -- about it.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  No.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Now, these pictures here --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  What's that?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  -- are -- are labeled --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  You got [inaudible.]\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  -- 55 -- to third grade. Okay. These are -- these are labeled, so we're --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  -- okay on those. And we'll just -- we'll just shoot those done.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Now, who -- tell us --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  This is my father. And --","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=6231.0,6252.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/195","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"NEIL LEVIN:  Dovid Katzman.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Dovid, Dovid Katzman. My father, I mean, if there's some people in New York that know, but you'll find out. He was a -- a -- I'll tell you what -- what --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  He was a fine hazzan.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  -- what Hirschman said --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  [inaudible]\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  -- what Hirshman said in the [inaudible] down Houston Street, you remember --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Yep.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  -- so they asked -- so they asked him, who is this little Katzman? Where was he when he come from Montreal? Why did he get Yossele Rosenblatt’s position? So, Hirschman said, that's the truth. He said, [inaudible]-- he said, it's like quality with a -- a beautiful [inaudible] tenor.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  That's what he said. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  And that's what he was. And, also, his greatness was that he was tremendous in improvisation and -- and all kind of things.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=6252.0,6293.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/196","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"NEIL LEVIN:  And he -- now -- did he come to California ever?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Yes. But he retired. He was already retired.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  He was retired by the time he came --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  From there, you know, he left, and I'll tell you why, I know if it's interesting here --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  From where?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  From Ohab Zedek.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Ohab Zedek.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  He left, took his tallis and left and we -- we start because, there were two rabbis, one was an orthodox and then the other one -- the other one was -- it's a long story. Maybe you read in the paper that he stole cars, etcetera, you know. Yeah, yeah, in the paper.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=6293.0,6318.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/197","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"And the -- yeah. And -- and he went to [inaudible] -- long st- -- anyhow. So, he was teaching the -- the Exodus. And my father was extremely religious. And he said, well, this was a -- we understand, he said, the splitting of the sea, it's a natural phenomenon. So, my father, oh, he said [Hebrew], took his tallis and left and never returned. And after that --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  He considered it apikorsis.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  -- at -- at -- had difficulty getting -- getting a position. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Uh-huh.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  And finally, he was supposed to – with a glorious voice. With everything but -- I mean, did not like publicity because he was supposed to do a Pesach at the [inaudible] in the heydays. And the everything was signed etcetera with Cooperman’s choir. And then -- you know of this thing, with all the biggest hazzonim --and suddenly his manager, who was a Weiner -- Weiner was -- there was a guy by the name of Weiner, so he got in the -- Grossingers heard him and they wanted him for Pesach there. So, my father said I have a -- an agreement. And he said so -- you'll break it. So, my father listened to him, you know, and he broke it. And he broke it, so the Times picked it up.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=6318.0,6385.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/198","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"So, it was a big article about -- about my father what he is. So, he start crying, you know. So they said, you tipish, this is a -- they said, it's a tremendous thing to be in the Times – tremendous publicity. But my father did -- but you know who -- that's how Oysher became a hazzan, because took Oysher because they couldn't get my father.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=6385.0,6402.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/199","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"NEIL LEVIN:  Uh.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  And people with the gatgas went there and they were going around [inaudible], anyway.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  And who -- and this framed --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  On both sides --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  -- here --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  -- this is my grandfather, maternal grandfather. His name was Chaim [inaudible], and a phenomenal voice, but he didn't know what to do with it --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Uh-huh.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  -- but he was a wonderful -- okay -- a wonderful ba'al t'filla. My father learned from them a lot, from the Ukraine. And on the other side my other grandfather, my paternal grandfather, was also a beautiful ba'al t'filla.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  But this is -- this was --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  This is the one -- yeah --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  -- your mom --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  -- [inaudible.]\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  -- your mother's father.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  [inaudible]. And I'll show what my wife -- Grace bring my -- your -- your painting, did that, you'll see.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Well, no -- if that --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Not now.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  -- we'll shoot that.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Not now.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Later.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=6402.0,6441.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/200","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"NEIL LEVIN:  This is -- this is your grandfather who was not a hazzan but --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Yes.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  -- he was a hazzan?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Yeah -- no.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Uh.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  [inaudible] hazzan.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Hazzan [inaudible.]\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Nothing great.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  A ba'al t'filla.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  No. In -- in a small town.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  [inaudible.]\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  And a [inaudible.]\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  And -- yeah. And my father sang with them and [inaudible.]\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Now -- when -- so, what year did you leave Julie for --","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=6441.0,6462.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/201","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JULIUS BLACKMAN:  '45.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  -- San Francisco.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  '45.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  '45.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Same time.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Yeah. I left in Jul- -- well, I came in January --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  No, no, you -- '45 you came to Los Angeles, left Chicago.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Yeah. And what year did you leave for Lo- -- Los Angeles for -- to San Francisco?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Oh, '60 -- '59.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  So, you were here just --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  '59.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  -- from '45 to '59. Right.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=6462.0,6479.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/202","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:\u003c/strong\u003e Yeah. It's about 15 years, yeah. I should tell you, I -- I was thinking before I left Chicago -- I have to brag about one thing. You know, I sang at Orchestra Hall in Chicago. They had a big rally, peace rally of some kind, and Eleanor Roosevelt was the guest speaker. And I was the guest soloist. I sang -- what did I sing? The House I Live In.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=6479.0,6503.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/203","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"NEIL LEVIN:  Yeah. And I -- yes, that's right. That was very popular --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  -- then. And she --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  She -- she shook hands, she was a big tall woman. I had to reach up and shake hands with her. She patted me on the back and told me to -- I was a bright young man with a bright future and she told me to.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN: This was of course..\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN: ‘44\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN: Right after \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN: During the war.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN: the war. Before Franklin Roosevelt died. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN: Oh, yeah, while he was still —\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN: Still president.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN: And she was traveling around the world.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=6503.0,6533.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/204","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"NEIL LEVIN: This rally was sponsored by Jewish organizations or just general?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  American Youth Congress, I think, was --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Uh-huh.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  -- the name of the organization. And it was a filled Orchestra Hall. It was a very -- and I worked in Whole House on Chicago Commons. I conducted choirs there. I sang the ballad for Americans --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Right.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  -- and conducted it at the same time.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  And then --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  And then I moved to Los Angeles.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  You came -- what -- what -- what brought you to Los Angeles?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Well, I came to Los Angeles in January of that year to visit my in-laws who had come out earlier.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Mm-hmm.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  And we came in January. The whole month of January, there was nothing but sunshine. I said to Phyllis, ‘This is for me’. Went back to Chicago. We finished up, we wrapped up everything --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  -- and moved out in July 1945.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=6533.0,6574.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/205","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"NEIL LEVIN:  And what –\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  And then I finished school in – in L.A.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Right. And then you – then when you were here –\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  And I was here.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  -- you – you –\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  I went back to school. I was majoring in music and education. As a matter of fact, I was president of the Epsilon Alpha Gamma, which is –\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Uh-huh.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  -- the Music Honor Society –\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Uh-huh.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=6574.0,6591.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/206","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JULIUS BLACKMAN:  -- of L.A. City and State College. I remember one year, I -- I -- we -- at the end of each semester, they have a contest for original songs by the students.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Uh-huh.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  So the -- that particular year, there were 11 songs; I sang eight of them. The kids wanted me to -- including my own. I got third prize. And the -- and I sang eight of the 11 songs. And in fact, we did -- now that I remember, we did a world premiere of the Voice of the Prophet by Albert Higmalot [ph.] You know Albert Higmalot?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  No.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  He did the -- the Lord's Prayer [inaudible]. Our Father, which art in heaven. [singing]\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  No. That -- that was a woman who did it.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=6591.0,6631.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/207","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JULIUS BLACKMAN:  No. No. Albert Higmalot. And he was playing the piano. I have a copy of the program here. So I did the baritone solo for the Voice of the Prophet with the combined choirs of the L.A. City College, the Methodist church, and some women's churches and so forth. And we sang it at the -- the Hollywood High School Auditorium.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  And were you a cantor here already in a congregation? No.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  I was just becoming a cantor at that time. This was 1944 -- '45. No. Forty-six.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Mm-hmm.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  I was -- I did the the High Holy Days at the Eagle Rock with Bert Weisaller [ph] with him in Eagle Rock. And from there, I went to the VJCC.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=6631.0,6667.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/208","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"NEIL LEVIN:  All right. And now, in the -- so your -- your big-time here was in the '50s in Los Angeles.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Well, the late '40s --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Late '40s --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  -- and through the '50s. Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  -- and then all through -- pretty much throughout the '50s.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Well, then '46, Nate and I in '47. Both got involved in the Hazzanim Farband. The Jewish Ministers --","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=6667.0,6683.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/209","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"NEIL LEVIN:  All right. Let --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  -- Cantors --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Tell --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  -- Association.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  -- me about that. Now, that's separate. This has nothing to do with the Cantors Assembly.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  No. That was a precursor. And actually --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Right.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  -- for a while, it was parallel.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Right. Now, you --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  So we --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  -- you were both involved in the Farband?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  We were both involved in the Farband.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Now, is that the same --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  I was vice president.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  He was vice president.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  You were vice president?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  I was treasurer.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Who was the president?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Kogan. Hyman Kogan [ph.]\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Kogan.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Remember?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Hyman.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Orthodox.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  When did they start? Did it just start?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=6683.0,6707.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/210","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JULIUS BLACKMAN:  They were going long before us.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  They -- they've been long before you got here.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  They've been going. Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Right.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  They registered officially as the Jewish Ministers Cantors Association --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Right.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  -- in the state of California.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Right. Now, what I want to know is it's the same name as the Jewish Ministers Cantors Assoc- -- yes?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=6707.0,6720.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/211","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"NATHAN KATZMAN:  A- -- AFCL -- WAFCL, you know --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  -- the -- the union.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Right. American Federation of Labor. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  We came became part and I have a letter there -- that I was a member that became part as a u- -- union and things went very well for hazzan in Montreal. All the Orthodox, etc. So also here, they were part of that.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Well, but --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  As a matter of fact, Cycowski was part of this group then, so was Paul Discount. So was Ansis [ph.]\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Yeah. I want to ask you about Ansis.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  But in other words --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Yeah. I know Ansis was -- because the American -- the Jewish Ministers Cantors Association is the same name as the -- in New York.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  New York has the same thing.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  But is it -- was it a branch or a separate corporation?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=6720.0,6757.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/212","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JULIUS BLACKMAN:  Separate. They were separate and independent --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Had nothing to do with it.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  -- [inaudible.]\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  It wasn't a branch.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  No. It wasn't.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Like, the Cantors Assembly, the region is a branch.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  No. They were a separate, independent organization.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  So there's no way --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  [Inaudible.]\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  And they just used the same name.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  They used the same name. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  And --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  And they did concerts. They had an ensemble that --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  And --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  -- Cykowsky conducted, if you remember.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Cykowsky conducted it?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Are there any recordings, do you think --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Weinstock [ph]. Weinstock. Weinstock.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  No. Cykowsky. Weinstock…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Weinstock. You mean the one who wrote the Yiddish songs?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Jacob Weinstock. It's a -- it's a -- he wrote -- in fact, he gave me a book -\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Yeah. I have that book.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  -- [inaudible.] Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Yeah. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  And he -- he --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  -- wasn't a hazzan, was he?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  No.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  No.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  No.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  No. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Conductor.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=6757.0,6789.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/213","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JULIUS BLACKMAN:  He was a good friend of Discount's and Cykowsky's and --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  But what happened with the Jewish Ministers Cantors Association? \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Well --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  I mean, in the first place, let's just clarify. It was called the Farband unofficially; right?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  It was the Farband. Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  With --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  The Hazzanim Farband.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  -- the -- the Hazzanim Farband.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Yeah. Now -- but there again, it had nothing to do with what they call a Farband and -- and --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  No.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  -- it's not like --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  No. No. No.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  -- a branch that closed up. All right.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  It's just --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  All right.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  -- a Yiddish name.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=6789.0,6808.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/214","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"NEIL LEVIN:  Do you have any idea when it folded up?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Well, it started --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  When we left.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  It started when --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  When we left.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  -- When Nate and I left.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  It's a fact.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  I'll tell you why.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  We were the young Turks, Nate and I, and we were --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Well --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  -- raising all kinds of issues that they were not happy about. We felt they were not meeting the needs of the day. So around 1946 and '47, we joined a Cantors Assembly.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Which was just emerging then.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Which was just emerging.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Mm-hmm.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  It was just founded in 1946, I think it was, or '47. Anyway, both of us joined the Assembly and together, with Carl Urstein  --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  But he wasn't there.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  He -- we created the Cantors Assembly as a region. And we were --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  And then what happened to the Farband?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  It's -- we left.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Well --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  It started disintegrating. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  The Farband has a -- has a plot -- a -- a -- a plot\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  I know they have a cemetery plot.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  -- at the cemetery.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  As a matter of fact, I'll tell you a story about that. When Paul Discount died, olav hashalom…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Mm-hmm.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=6808.0,6857.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/215","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JULIUS BLACKMAN:  …I think it was around '47, right? At any rate, we -- we conduct the -- the -- the Hazzanim Farband members conducted the funeral for Paul because by that time, they were not happy with the -- with his -- it was a little later, I think. Anyway, and when they buried him, they buried him on the plot that the -- the cantors plot in the -- in the Jewish cemetery there in -- in -- in L.A. And the headstone on that plot has carved on it the -- the notes from [inaudible.]\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Right. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  [Singing.]\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  I saw it. I was out there.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  But the question is this.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003e JULIUS BLACKMAN:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  The -- nobody maintains that. I mean, be- -- you see, because the -- the -- I looked it up.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Yeah.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=6857.0,6901.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/216","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"NEIL LEVIN:  I -- I had somebody look it up.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Jewish Ministers Cantors Association is -- doesn't exist anymore.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Yeah. That's what I understand.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  There's no carryover or you can't even find what their corporate records were. I suppose I could continue further to make a search, but if I wanted to find out -- for example, I'm looking for heirs of Ansis. Now, the only way would be to find out who -- who -- you know --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Well, the last one that I would know would be Hyman Kogan.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  But he's dead. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003e[Crosstalk]\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Do you -- do you know who they gave the -- all of the music to? Was it to the Jewish library? Or did they give it to -- to Hebrew Union College? So I -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  I'm not sure.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  I could find out.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Who? Ansis? Oh. Oh. You mean the -- the Farband.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=6901.0,6938.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/217","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JULIUS BLACKMAN:  Oh. The Farband had all Ansis…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Donated.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  See, he -- he gave his --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Oh. No. Wait. Now, we're getting somewhere. The Farband had Ansis's music.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  They had his music.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Yes. All kinds of music.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  I have one book of his. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  And they had -- you had -- they had -- you have a book?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Yeah. I have a book. A selichos...\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Oh. That. Yeah. Yeah. But I'm look -- all right. But didn't the Farband have an office? Had an actual --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  No.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  -- place? No.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  No.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Never had an office.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  From homes, you know?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Right. But they're -- they -- they donated the music, you think, to --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Yes. Saul Silverman [ph] gave it to HUC.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=6938.0,6968.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/218","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JULIUS BLACKMAN:  Yeah. That's right.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003e NATHAN KATZMAN:  In downtown.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  So it could be the HUC.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  So HUC may have it. Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Or it could be the Jewish Library.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  [Inaudible] Sharlin. Bill Sharlin.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Bill Sharlin.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Right.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  If you know him….\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  I know Bill. Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  So you could talk to him. And -- because they had it. They had Ben Pollack's music. And there's also --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Oh. Ben Pollack's music is at the Jewish library.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Yeah?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Yeah. No. You told me that.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  And also in his home. And I talked to his son several times and I --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Mm-hmm.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  -- told Serota, I'll come down when you -- and see what he has, look at -- of course, he had a lot of very interesting music, Ben Pollack.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Yeah. Ben wrote stuff --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  So --","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=6968.0,6996.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/219","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JULIUS BLACKMAN:  -- for avocation.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  So where is it? At the Jewish library?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  His son has whatever's left. Most of it was either at HUC, because also donated to that, or -- or the Jewish library, if at all. And --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  But you didn't -- you didn't check into it yet. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Pardon me?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  You were going to check for --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  No.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Last year, two years ago.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Well, I will.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  In the Jewish library.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  I promise I will.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=6996.0,7016.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/220","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JULIUS BLACKMAN:  I went to the library once to see --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  I'll go. I'll go.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  -- what they had there and a lot of it is in boxes.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Well, where? The Jewish library?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Now, what they have -- yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Still in boxes.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  And then I went to the university, the Judaism library --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Mm-hmm.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003e JULIUS BLACKMAN:  -- which also has a lot of boxes and some stuff. I thought maybe something would be there, but --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  In the case of Ansis, I thought we would track down, you know -- see if there were any heirs. We checked in the phone book. We checked everywhere. We checked -- but the first step would be to see, you know, if the Farband had any records -- records of who paid the bills, of who kept the -- who paid for the --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  I'll tell you.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  -- for -- to maintain the graves. But of course, there's no -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Yeah.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=7016.0,7050.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/221","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"NEIL LEVIN:  Then I saw there, it's all cement. So there's nothing to maintain. But something very interesting.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  You might -- yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Something very interesting.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  There were some little stones --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Mm-hmm.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  -- that looked like they'd been left recently.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Oh.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  On Ansis's grave last spring, last June. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Let me tell you something. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  And that's all I know.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  You want to get everything about Ansis, I hope. I used to do a lot of programs there and it's way out. And it -- with the tuberculosis and with the --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Yeah. That's where he died.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=7050.0,7074.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/222","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"NATHAN KATZMAN:  So -- so he was there. And I met him there. And one time he came to introduce himself. He said -- we sung some of his material. So he lived there. He -- he lived -- and lived -- he was the mashgiach --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Yeah. Right.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  -- or something. Now, they possibly, if there's anything --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  I checked there already.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Oh.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  But nobody remembered who, what --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  You may --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Who he was?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  You may try to find --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  No. No. Just the --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  He was there a long time.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  I know --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  But you may try --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  -- but he died a long time ago.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  You may try to find it -- if you can find any descendants of Hyman Kogan. See, Kogan was an accountant and Kogan kept records. I know, because I turned the book -- when I accepted the treasurership --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Mm-hmm.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  -- Kogan took over the books.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Because he was very -- he was a meticulous guy.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=7074.0,7110.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/223","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"NEIL LEVIN:  Now, you -- you went Julie to San Francisco why? Why -- why -- why did you leave Los Angeles?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Well, I had been working during the war because they turned me down. I tried to enlist at '41 and they turned me down. So I got a job in a war plant. And when 1945 came around, the war was over. I had gone up in January for -- came out in January for a vacation \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Mm-hmm.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  -- and by 1945, when the war was already over, I decided I liked California and I moved out to Los Angeles. And that's when I went back to school and went to LA City and State College with a double major in music and education were my two majors. So while I was at school is when I was involved with the Epsilon Alpha Gamma and -- and training for hazzonos.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=7110.0,7156.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/224","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"So I studied privately because there was no Assembly Seminary Institute at that time. So I studied with Cykowsky, who was my cantorial mentor.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Oh. He -- I didn't know. He was your teacher.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  He was my teacher.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Uh-huh.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  He was at Shaarei Zedek at that time, which was a --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Shaarei Tefila.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Shaarei Tefila on Beverly Boulevard. And then I also coached with Paul Discount, who was my -- sort of a --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Mentor.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  -- father figure. No. He was more than -- not a mentor so much as a father figure. He was a sweet guy. And then in -- and I had a high holiday position at Eagle Rock. This is when Cykowsky moved up to San Francisco and took a position at Beth Israel. And I came up for a month in a summer to work with him on a daily basis. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAnd then I took the position at the VJCC. I had auditioned there and they took me. And so I started there. In fact, the whole first -- first year for Friday night, I used to write three or four settings of the -- verses of the L’kha Dodi because there's no music for baritones in those days. So I wrote my own verses of the L’kha Dodi and several V’shamru’s and a number of other things.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=7156.0,7222.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/225","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"NEIL LEVIN:  Uh-huh.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  So I had music for myself. So it was a -- that was when I first started. And that's when I put together a Jewish music council at the VJCC. And that first year -- this is apart from the Assembly then --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  -- when Nate and I were working on the Assembly. The first year we put together a five-concert series at the VJCC. But before that, you know --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  But you did this -- I mean, you did it -- you did this together a lot or you did it separately?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  No. No. The Assembly we worked together.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Yeah. But --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  But at the VJCC, I first did a -- a five concert series --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Mm-hmm.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  -- culminating with -- one year, we had Jakob Gimpel. I think I have the picture of Gimpel there someplace.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  We'll see.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  You'll see --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  -- in the photographs when you come to the photographs.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Uh-huh.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=7222.0,7270.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/226","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JULIUS BLACKMAN:  And one year we had the folk singer Terry Ali [ph] and somebody. One year we did it during brotherhood week. We did a combined program with my choir and the Jester Hairston Choir, which was the old Hall Johnson Choir. I don't know if you know the Hall --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  No.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  -- Johns- -- Hall Johnson was a black choral conductor.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Oh. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Sure.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  He had a choir. Jester Hairston was his assistant. So when Hall Johnson died, Jester Hairston --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  -- took over. So we did a joint program. I sent them three Yiddish and Hebrew folk songs and they sent me some spirituals. And we did a combined program where they sang the Yiddish and Hebrew and we sang some -- some -- like, you know --","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=7270.0,7312.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/227","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"NEIL LEVIN:  Spirituals.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Spirituals. And then we did a couple of combined things together. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  And then the final program was when we did Jewish music month. And we had -- it just happened we had put together a program. One of my members of the Music Council was a guy by the name of George Wilde. His real name was Bernie Wei- -- Weis- -- Wine- -- Wine- -- Winestucker [ph] -- Wine- -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Uh-huh.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Anyway, he changed his professional name to George Wilde. He was Doris Day's arranger. And he was also arranger for -- what's his name? The guy who was Jack Benny's boyfriend. He conducted -- he was a conductor with the Jack Benny show. Phil Harris. So -- in fact, I'll never forget one incident. Sammy Weis was the -- the drummer.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=7312.0,7358.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/228","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"And Sammy Weis' son was one of my bar mitzvah students. So when they had the bar --. After the bar mitzvah party, we went to the Beverly Hills Hotel for the reception. And after the -- during the reception, Harris gets ahold of me, Phil Harris, and he starts telling, you know, how impressed he was\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Sure.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  -- with the Jewish music and we spent a whole hour -- you know, I'm still --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Yeah.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=7358.0,7382.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/229","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JULIUS BLACKMAN:  -- ebullient, you know? And he calls a guy over and we had some tomato juice together. He kept pouring tomato juice into me. I'm drinking tomato juice. I'm parched. You know, you've been in a service with all kinds of big wheels. Then they announce lunch. So I got up to go to lunch. I almost fell on my face. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eHe'd been feeding me vodka and tomato juice. And I had about six of these long, tall glasses. I almost collapsed. But we had a long discussion with Phil Harris. And Sammy Weis then was on my music council. He was part of the --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Mm-hmm.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  -- this music council that we had. So for the Jewish music month, we had arranged that George -- well, Bernie Weisman was his Jewish name.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Uh-huh.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=7382.0,7422.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/230","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JULIUS BLACKMAN:  His regular name. So he had arranged because the Jewish musicians, every year for Christmas, they get together a brass choir, trumpets, trombones, tuba, and do Christmas carols. So Maxi Herman and -- and George Wilde said, why -- why don't we do something like that for Jewish music month. So Bernie said, I'll tell you what. I'll arrange -- I'll make an arrangement. So I got him some Yiddish and Hebrew songs. Niggun Bialik and a couple of other things, including Bei Mir Bist Du Schoen. And this was his own idea. And so for that concert, we did the brass choir and my choir had a 45-voice choir at that time. And we did some Yiddish and Hebrew folks songs. I did a couple of songs. I did the [Yiddish] interpreted and danced for him with this Mickey Miller guy I told you about, who had studied dance --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Mm-hmm.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=7422.0,7481.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/231","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JULIUS BLACKMAN:  -- with Nathan Visonsky. But unbeknownst to us at the Music Council, the rabbi had spoken to David Aronson, who was president of the Rabbinical Assembly, was in town at that time.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Mm-hmm.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Again, he has a fa- -- had a famous lecture on Jewish music and the evolution of Jewish music and its relation to the Bible. So he had a number of things. So the rabbi had arranged for him to speak. And the Music Council arranged this program. So we decided to compromise. We did both. And the choir sang some of the things about which he was going to speak. And I sang – one or two really biblical things he was going to speak. So it was a long program, but it was a -- a very exciting program, you know? And you had -- I think I have it on re- -- recording on that tape.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=7481.0,7525.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/232","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"NEIL LEVIN:  Mm-hmm.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  I have a recording of that brass choir and it is just melody. You have to appreciate it to hear it. It was just wonderful. We also had a -- our last choir, one of our la- -- one of the next to last concerts was the -- we had the piano -- the Dvořák piano quintet with some of our members, Yehuda Shapiro and Erno Neufeld on the violin. You couldn't ask for better. And Sylvia Neufeld was a pianist and a couple of others and they did Dvořák piano quintet and a couple of other things. So that was our --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Mm-hmm.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  My first year. Second year, I conducted a contest for an original Sabbath Eve service, in honor of Paul Discount and some of the pictures you'll see there. And we opened it up to composers all over the country and the world.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=7525.0,7576.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/233","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"NEIL LEVIN:  Mm-hmm.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  We publicized it widely. In fact, we even got an entry from Israel. We had 13 entries altogether. And the two winning entries were both from -- from the Los Angeles area. The judges were Tedesco, Saul Silverman was a judge, Victor Young was a judge. Was a -- I think MGM music director. David Rose was a judge, was also a big shot in the music world. We got some pretty snappy names. Leslie Clausen was in the music department at LA State and City. So these were the judges.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Mm-hmm.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=7576.0,7613.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/234","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JULIUS BLACKMAN:  In fact, some place in there, there's a letter from Tedesco with his nomination --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Uh-huh.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  -- of who the winning entry were. So the winner was Maurice Goldman --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Oh. Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  -- who -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Yeah. [Inaudible.]\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  -- was then the music director for the bureau.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  He was here already then.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Yeah.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=7613.0,7627.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/235","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JULIUS BLACKMAN:  And the second prize -- and I rather take pride in that -- was a fellow by the name of Lounce Mory [ph], Welshman, who was playing in the studios. He was part of a two piano team and a composer, who was a very talented guy. And I -- I knew him well and I said, Lou, why don't you enter this thing? He said, I'm not Jewish. I said, it's open to anybody. He says, but, I don't know anything about Jewish music. So I gave him the Edelson [ph] book. He studied it. And he submitted an entry. Musically --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Mm-hmm.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=7627.0,7658.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/236","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JULIUS BLACKMAN:  -- as Tedesco, I think, said, we didn't -- we showed -- gave the music to the judges only by number, number one, number two, number three. We didn't want them to know who the composers were. So they said that his, Mory's, was musically the strongest they felt. But in terms of Jewish idiom and the --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  -- Jewish, you know, flavor, Goldman's was the best and almost equal. So they -- so Goldman got the first prize. And the -- and Mory got the second prize. Then the third year, we conducted a -- you know, Paul Discount was dying. We knew he was dying.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Mm-hmm.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=7658.0,7696.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/237","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JULIUS BLACKMAN:  And we conducted a -- we lined up every congregation that he had been at in Youngstown, Ohio, Kansas City, Missouri, Hartford, Connecticut where Arthur Koret [ph] was. And in Bos- --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Minneap- -- Minneapolis? Was he in Minneapolis?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  No. He was in Min- -- in -- in Boston --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Uh-huh.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  -- for a while as a conductor there.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Uh-huh. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  So we got people in all those communities who raised money and we raised money here.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Mm-hmm.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Nate was involved and I was involved. And Cykowsky and -- and Plotkin. Ann Plotkin. And we raised enough money. Bloch Publishers published the work. And there is correspondence --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  -- there from Bloch Publishers.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  The book. You're talking about the --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Yeah. The book is there; isn't it?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Yeah. Well, I had it -- no. I have the book. But --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  This picture. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Oh. That's the --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Is this here in Los Angeles?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Yeah. Those are the -- the early -- well, the middle years of the Cantors Assembly. I think you got Nate Katzman and myself in the middle there in the first row, right?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=7696.0,7750.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/238","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"NEIL LEVIN:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  -- sem- -- semi --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Right. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  -- happy.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Here in the middle. Right.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Semi-happy. Abe Selkof [ph] was there.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Right.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Who retired from Baltimore not long ago.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  So -- but you're all receiving some sort of a --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003e]JULIUS BLACKMAN:  Well, we got a certificate about --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Certificate.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  -- which we were not too happy because it was --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Uh-huh.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  -- certificate that we met all the requirements--\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  --to be shlichei tzibor for one year. We were so mad at them. We wrote some very hot letters to New York.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Now, here -- here's a -- here's a picture, which --","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=7750.0,7778.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/239","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JULIUS BLACKMAN:  That's my -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  -- the leaders of my music council.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Charles --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Charles Previn.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  -- Previn. And that's Andre Previn's uncle, you know?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Right.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  And George Wilde, Bernie Weisman.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Mm-hmm.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Sylvia Neufeld was there, I think; isn't she?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  And myself and one other. I think [inaudible]. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Here -- well, many of these are -- are self-explanatory. You did something with the Boy Scouts here.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Oh. Yeah. The -- the Boy Scouts had a World Jamboree. I was a -- a program director for my son's cub scout troop, but they met on Friday nights and I couldn't be there Friday nights. But when the Boy Scouts had a jamboree, they had scouts from all over the world who came to Camp Irvine. Now, it's University of California at Irvine.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=7778.0,7820.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/240","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"NEIL LEVIN:  Uh-huh.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  But then it was just a dusty --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  -- campgrounds. So I went out with my son for that. And it happened that they had a religious service on Sunday morning for all three denominations; separate services. So they asked me if I would conduct it, be part of the Jewish services.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Uh-huh.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  I would be the cantor. And they said I could get a quartet. So I got three other hazzanim and we constituted the quartet. So it was Abe Salkof [ph] and Liam Bennett. I think Nate was away at that time. And I think Bob Roth was the other one.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Uh-huh.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=7820.0,7854.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/241","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JULIUS BLACKMAN:  And myself. That was the quartet. Pre- -- Vice President Nixon -- then Vice President Nixon was supposed -- he spoke there at that time. I didn't get a picture with him, but we had these ready. The -- the -- the cantors who were involved.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  You worked with the Hebrew Free Loan Society.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=7854.0,7870.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/242","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JULIUS BLACKMAN:  I was executive director in San Francisco. And not only wa- -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  In addition to -- at the same time, you were head pulpit? \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  No. No. No. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  No.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  After I had a midlife career change. So after I left my last pulpit in San Francisco, I went to the Hebrew Free Loan as executive director --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Uh-huh.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  -- where I then became the founding president of the associa- -- National Association of Hebrew Free Loans. And I'm now the chairman of the board of the International Association of Hebrew Free Loans. So I'm a divided personality.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=7870.0,7899.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/243","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"NEIL LEVIN: Now, many of these concert program -- did you ever come up to San Francisco --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Yes.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  -- to sing? Did you do anything together?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Well --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  We were just talking about it now.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  We -- number one, we -- they were on the rings. Cykowsky.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Cykowsky.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Right.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Uh-huh.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  So I came in and I sa- -- sang for Friday and Shabbos. We just -- in this congregation. And then on Sunday, I did -- I forgot the name of the ho- -- hotel club was --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Uh-huh.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  -- a very, very famous club.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Concordia [ph.]\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Concordia.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  So I -- at that time, I came as a chairman, I guess, or some- -- something and I did some. So I did that. And then with Julie, I came when Julie was honored.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  So I did something there.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Nate spoke when they --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  -- when they gave a testimonial to me for 25 years at the Hebrew Free Loan.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  [Inaudible. ]","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=7899.0,7943.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/244","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JULIUS BLACKMAN:  Nate was --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Oh. We -- we -- and we had up there a concert at [inaudible.]\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Where?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  With the orchestra --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Uh-huh.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  -- with the chorus, etcetera, my son, and I.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  At -- at B'nai --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  And that is the -- the shul that we rehearsed that you mentioned with the -- the dome and where the --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  At Sherith-- Sherith Israel.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=7943.0,7963.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/245","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"NATHAN KATZMAN:  -- once a year -- and once a year they go up there and -- for Kol Nidre and they sing from there the choir.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Oh. Yeah. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  [Inaudible.]\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Yeah. That's a fascinating -- yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  And really, it's like it's coming from heaven.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  You know, the kids. And the children's choir gets up there and they sing.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  What you got there?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  These are -- looks like a boat in the Valley -- in the Valley Jewish News.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  WeFll, that's the Valley Jewish Community Center. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  I was just giving you some of the -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  That's the --","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=7963.0,7984.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/246","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JULIUS BLACKMAN:  -- the -- that have to do with the concerts and the music concerts. And we had an organ grinders who raised money to buy an organ for the -- for the temple. So they organized the organ grinders.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Now, I see here some correspondence with Anneliese Landau.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Yeah. Well, she was the chairman of the Jewish Music Council for the Jewish Centers Association.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Here?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  In --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Los Angeles.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  In Los Angeles. Yeah. And I was a member of that board. And I was involved with the Jewish Music Council also --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Uh-huh.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  -- because I kept -- well, there was one experience, I have to tell you this one. I think a little -- you know, I took courses in -- in -- in -- in lieder singing and in artsong--\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Uh-huh.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=7984.0,8027.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/247","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:\u003c/strong\u003e At the city and state college. And our ins- -- this was for -- for people professional level only. So they invited the -- our instructor invited Jan Pierce to talk to us once. And he spoke to us about the art of lieder singing and opera and all of that stuff. And I challenged him.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=8027.0,8046.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/248","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"I says, “You know, whenever I hear Marianne Anderson, at the end of her concert, she does a -- a group of Negro spirituals.” I said, “Now, I know you're Jewish.” He's an Orthodox Jew, wears tefillin. I said, “Why don't you sing some Yiddish and Hebrew songs in your concert? I'd love to hear you do some of those.” He says, “You know, you have a point.” And the next time I heard him, he had some Yiddish and Hebrew songs in his repertoire. So I take credit for that.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=8046.0,8072.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/249","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"NEIL LEVIN:  Would you say in Los -- in -- in -- in San Francisco, you continued doing the same thing that you do -- this organizing.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  And what --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  I was still involved with -- and I'm the first president of the Northern California Board of Cantors when I first came there.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Tell me about that.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  And I came there --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  About the -- about the northern [inaudible.]\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  -- with Ner Tamid and we had some concerts at my congregation.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Uh-huh.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=8072.0,8093.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/250","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JULIUS BLACKMAN:  And I got together with the cantors. It was a sort of loose knit we'd get together socially periodically. I said, why don't we form a board of cantors? So we formed a board of cantors with Martin Feldman and Joe Portnoy at Emanu El and --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Right.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  -- some of the others. And they elected me president. And then within a half a year, I left my congregation, became executive director of the Hebrew Free Loan. So only two years ago, I -- I was reelected president of Northern California Board of --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Uh-huh.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  -- Cantors. And we had our first -- we had what we call a choral concert last year where we took the combined choirs of all the congregations up north.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=8093.0,8133.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/251","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"NEIL LEVIN:  Just this past year?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Yeah. Up north. There were around 65 voices.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Total.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Total. Yeah. For the choral concert. And we did a half a dozen -- we did arrangements of Zavel Zilberts’ arrangements of V’taher Libenu.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Now, who conducted that?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  This one, Cory Winter \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Oh. Cory does that. Uh-huh.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Yeah. And we're going to have another one this next fall where I'll conduct. And then we did -- and then each cantor did -- you know, we did the usual.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Yeah.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=8133.0,8158.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/252","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JULIUS BLACKMAN:  Each cantor did a few schtick. So I've been -- well, every year I've been involved cantorate [inaudible]. I sing at a Jewish home. I -- I daven at a Jewish home every year for the the High Holy Days and periodically through the year. And then I've been, the standing joke is I’ve been the cantor in residence in San Francisco. So I've been at Emanu El --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Sherith Israel. Chevra Thilim. Adath Israel, down the peninsula.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=8158.0,8185.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/253","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"NEIL LEVIN:  You continue doing this kind of organization, this entrepreneurial kind of music like you did here.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  As a matter of fact, I am working on a project right now, which I hope to do. There is a composer in San Francisco by the name of David Scheinfeld. I do not know if you heard of him. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Scheinfeld?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN: Scheinfeld. He has works performed by the Minneapolis, in Dallas, in San Francisco -- all over the country. He was a violinist and I knew him in Chicago because his -- my cousin was his best friend, Izzy Zvero, who played in the Chicago Symphony for 45 years.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Mm-hmm.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  So David is going to hit his 90th birthday next year. And I'm working on a project to try and get him recognition in his 90th year because he's had a suite performed -- he's had a number of things performed by the San Francisco Symphony --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Uh-huh.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  -- as well.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=8185.0,8235.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/254","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"NEIL LEVIN:  Mm-hmm.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  But this suite, I was particularly taken with. The first one I heard, as I told somebody, it sounds like an exercise in mathematics. You know, three against two, you know? And very to me not particularly moving musically. Very -- you know, very adroit manipulation of -- you know, the -- of -- of rhythms and so on, but I didn't particularly care for it. So when I went down to congratulate him afterwards --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  -- I said, you know, that was very interesting music, exciting, but I didn't tell him I loved it. But this last time, I came down prepared to tell him the suite that he did was enlarged orchestra, I came down to -- prepared to tell him it was really stimulating and, you know?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=8235.0,8272.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/255","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"NEIL LEVIN:  Yeah. Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  I said, I really loved that music. It was more romantic sounding and it had a real -- it had some melodies and themes and so forth and it was exciting. He's a great composer. He really is a great composer.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Oh.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  So I'm trying to get him recognized by the community. That'll take some doing. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  I -- I [inaudible.]\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Huh?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  I've got arrangements from [inaudible.]\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Huh?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Oh.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  [Inaudible.]\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Oh. What? What? What? You -- you have arrangements?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Yeah. Yes. I think --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  He made --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  I -- I inherited it from Cykowsky about five, six times I told you that I wanted you to see them. And he arranged them.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=8272.0,8305.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/256","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JULIUS BLACKMAN:  You should --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  A Mi Sheberach and a Shomrei Yisrael and some other things.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  There was something else in the --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  For --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  -- [inaudible], but --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Yes.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  -- very exciting piece.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Yes. Yes. I think I have it.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  He's a grand --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Very fine arrangement.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  You know, he's a great composer. He's a -- and he did some arrangements for Cykowsky --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  For Cykowsky.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  -- and others. He doesn't do it now. I tried to get him to do some music. He says, Julie, I'm tied up. I've got a commission from Minneapolis. I've got a commission from Dallas.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Now, how do you pronou- -- how do you spell his name?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=8305.0,8329.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/257","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JULIUS BLACKMAN:  S-h-e-i-n-f-e-l-d.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  It's not Shonefeld.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Shein.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  No. Sheinfeld.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  There's another Paul -- no.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  No. He's David Sheinfeld.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  David Sheinfeld.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Former violinist in the Chicago.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Right.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  And he studied with Respigi. And then he came back here for two years. And then he came back to Chicago. He convinced my cousin to stay with the violin rather than to go into medicine. My cousin was debating should he become a doctor, should he stay, so he convinced him.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Now, I see here a whole lot -- this is a whole file of material on -- on the history of the west coast regional branch action --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Oh. Yeah. There are --","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=8329.0,8363.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/258","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"NEIL LEVIN:  -- because you've got all this --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  -- you know, minutes and all kinds of stuff.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  -- which -- you have the minutes.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  There's some very exciting things.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Now -- and you were involved in this heavily. This goes back to '53.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  But you were doing this independently. Well, what it just means is this. You see, it looks like almost -- you're -- you're dealing with issues here that are general, but you're dealing with them locally.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Now, in Chicago regional branch of the Assembly, it doesn't -- doesn't mean -- they don't deal with these kinds of things.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  No.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Because that's a national. Now, why -- if, for example, you're talking about a steering committee or dealing with ethics among cantors, but this is just --","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=8363.0,8400.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/259","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JULIUS BLACKMAN:  I'll tell you some of the things that concern us. Nate and I both were heavily involved in this. See, we -- for one thing, we felt that, as I indicated, that the cantors has to be involved with the movement, with the United Synagogue, with the Conservative movement with the University of Judaism. And we involved ourselves so that some of the things you'll see there, that are some programs -- I think it may have some of them here, too.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Mm-hmm.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Some of the programs that were -- every year, they'd have a conference that they -- a regional conference --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Mm-hmm.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  -- with the rabbis and cantors involved. And we would have a service sometimes at Sinai, sometimes at Valley Jewish Community, sometimes at Beth El where one cantor would be the -- the main soloist -- the cantor and the pulpit and the others were supporting. Well, we also made it a point that the conferences -- the follow up parts of the conference, we were involved in chairing sessions and reporting for sessions in the planning of the conference itself. So we were deeply involved in the movement as such. And that culminated in a way in one -- where -- where the rabbis had a retreat at Arrowhead Springs. Remember, Nate?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  [Inaudible.]","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=8400.0,8467.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/260","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JULIUS BLACKMAN:  And Max Vorspan asked me if the cantors would be interested, and I said we certainly would. So there were about 11 or 12 of us went up to Arrowhead Springs where Mordecai Kaplan and Jacob Cohen were the two scholars in residence. Harold Schulweis made his first appearance I remember there.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Well, yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  At that time, he was a young punk out of the Seminary. And we participated heavily in the conference. In fact, one of the -- I think Lieberman at the Seminary.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Saul Lieberman.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Had died then. And the -- and they wanted -- they had a memorial service for him and I said -- and they asked me to do the -- the molei and I said to Nate, should I do it? He says, listen, you're our president. You have to do. So I did. And --","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=8467.0,8509.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/261","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"NEIL LEVIN:  See, here, this is -- I don't know. Well, of course, it's 1953. So I don't know. But you're dealing with all -- things on -- on a local level. You -- you really delve -- almost like a separate -- in fact, even it says here, west con- -- this little detail I'll ask you about. It says west coast regional branch of the Cantors Assembly of the United States of America. But it wasn't it called the Cantors Assembly of America?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Well --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Did they use the word United States in the beginning?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Well --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  West coast.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=8509.0,8535.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/262","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JULIUS BLACKMAN:  West coast is -- we -- we were called the west coast region and we said the United States. I should tell you one other thing, which I think Nate may be jamming it now. We -- I remember the first year that I went to New York --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Uh-huh.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  -- to re- -- on the -- on the -- for the region. You know, in those days, congregations didn't send their cantors out, you know, to conferences.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  You know, that came later where --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Yeah. Sure.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=8535.0,8558.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/263","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:\u003c/strong\u003e -- it's a matter of course. The guys pitched in in the region. They pitched in to send me there to represent the region and I did. And I'll never forget they put me, with all due respect, they put me where they were having reports from the regions. Our region was last on the report. By that time, it was already ten in the evening of the first session and nobody wanted to stay. So Putterman says, well, we're going to ask the people -- the last three speakers to speak for one minute because the regions had very little to report, I have to tell you.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003e","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=8558.0,8589.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/264","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"NEIL LEVIN:  Yeah. Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  And I said, I didn't come 3,000 miles to talk for one minute. So either I was going to get a special dispensation by the body to speak --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Mm-hmm.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  -- or I wasn't going to report. So they put it to a vote and everybody voted blah, blah, blah. And when I gave my, you know, report and the things we accomplished, I was able to report about the conference we did with the rabbis and the --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Mm-hmm.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  We also established, if you remember, Courses for Cantors on Pulpits at the university.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Lance was one.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  And Lance was a -- taught one course. And Nate and I taught one course on practical hazzanas. And we had a course there and Wise taught. I think they did it to me on purpose because I had left the pulpit at the VJCC on account of him.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  But they wanted to ram it down our throat. So we took the course. And there was another course, I think Pressman taught a course. Anyway, we established the courses. Cantors graduate -- like the rabbis, take graduate courses. So we established that with the university and we did it. And all the things we were able to report, plus all the concerts we did.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=8589.0,8650.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/265","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"NEIL LEVIN:  And they responded to it.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Oh. They responded. They gave me an ovation.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  You see --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Something very important.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Yeah. Please.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  I think. There were only the two of us. I'm not doing this because I wanted the credit.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Yeah. No. No. No.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  [Inaudible] credit, that's all. And whenever they talked at a conventions, you know, because he would speak up, I would speak up and always to the point, you know? So I remember one time I even had nusaḥ and nobody knew something. And I got up and said this is like that. So --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  He’s a ba'al nusaḥ, I want you to know.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=8650.0,8679.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/266","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"NATHAN KATZMAN:  Yeah. So we saved the job. They're gone. So it's all right. Do you remember?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  One man was accused of being -- on television said of being a Communist, etc. And I was the chairman at that time. And he was in your shul in Beth Zion.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  I remember.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  And he's still around. Still around. And I asked him, just tell me that you're not so I can go and fight for you because they --","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=8679.0,8700.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/267","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"NEIL LEVIN:  What? The assem- --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  They gave him the gate.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  The Assembly -- oh. I mean, yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  The congregation.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  So -- so -- but they --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Where? Where? Here in Los Angeles.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Here in Los Angeles.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Yeah. I -- and I did go down. I think maybe you were with me.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  I went with you.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  We talked to Greenberg.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Nate was president then.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  I was reinstated. Carl Urstein had problems -- big problems. And I think -- I don't know if you went with me or not and we went and we straightened it out. The big -- Michaelson [ph] -- Michaelson had tremendous problem with this rabbi and with --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Yeah. He was a [inaudible.]\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  And we went down, you remember, and we straightened it out and they had to listen and they listened in those days. And who else?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Harry Horowitz, remember?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Who?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=8700.0,8736.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/268","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JULIUS BLACKMAN:  There was a cantor in a reformed temple by the name of Harry Horowitz.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Oh. Yes.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Person named [inaudible.]\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Well, yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  You read it, it was not much of a hazzan, but the shul had advertised --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  -- Cantor Har- -- Harden.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Uh-huh.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Cantor Horowitz. In the meantime, he had -- he'd take nightclub engagements as Harry Harden. And then the thing that really got them, got his rabbi Troutman, I think was --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Yeah. Troutman.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=8736.0,8758.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/269","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:\u003c/strong\u003e Troutman. Yeah. That he -- when the rabbi was on vacation, this fellow did a couple of marriages. Well, the rabbi was not happy about that. So he came back, he wanted to kick him out. And we went to the congregation and we -- and we took it to mediation and we said -- we asked the question, did you advertise him as a cantor? Of course, they did. Did you advertise him, you know, as your cantor? They did. We showed them the reform manual which says that anybody who's familiar with the -- with the --","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=8758.0,8788.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/270","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"NATHAN KATZMAN:  Rituals.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  -- with the kiddushin and the -- the laws of kiddushin and so on, can officiate at a marriage, which -- so they -- they had advertised him as their cantor. He did know all of these things. So they said -- so why are you ready to throw him out? He does everything you ask him to do.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Mm-hmm.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  So they had to reinstate him. We were not happy about him, you know --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  -- as cantor, but the principle was he had to remain. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  That very important thing and then I'll -- I'll -- at the same time, you know, there came out, I don't remember thereafter -- after what the -- where the rabbis complained about the hazzanim in New York who actually made a living from hazzans; remember? And there was one man here who was a stutterer, [inaudible]. [Inaudible] bright man and he had a lot of weddings. So we were able to ask him and -- and he acquiesced -- not to do it anymore without a rabbi because that's what they said. So I said for -- for [inaudible]. All right.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=8788.0,8843.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/271","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"NEIL LEVIN:  I'm listening. I'm -- I'm -- I'm reading.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  No. I don't blame. It's all right.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  No. No. No.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  It's monotonous. All right. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  That's not [inaudible.] \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  What do you mean monotonous?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Finish it on the tape.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  No. They'll cut it out. We were able to convince him and he had about three or four a week. He made a living from that, like in New York.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  So he stopped it. Yes.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Some of them in New York had three or four a day sometimes --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  No. No. No.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  -- on a Sunday. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  If --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Five, seven. Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  -- the rabbis will take cantors, but we had did and -- and everybody was disciplined, but they did not. They -- they -- even here. They chant. They [Hebrew] and everything else. So -- but we were able to do it, Julie and I. Just two people.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=8843.0,8875.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/272","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JULIUS BLACKMAN:  Yeah. Yeah. We carried the bulk.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Now here you deal, for example, with things -- I mean, this is, you know, the same level that does nationally. And I'm wondering why, for example, ethics.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  About -- every detail here. Now, what were these? These were steering committee meeting --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  -- minutes. And --","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=8875.0,8897.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/273","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JULIUS BLACKMAN:  The guys were involved here. We were -- we -- we --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  I liked this one.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Yeah. Go ahead.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  I liked this one. It's 1953. Deportment and attire. The community off the pulpit -\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Off the pulpit --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Right.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  -- the cantor's attire should be a proper reflection of the profession.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  We gave a -- we gave a -- a course --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Yeah. We did.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  [Inaudible] and I. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Off the pulpit.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Yes.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  So they wouldn't have approved of a hazzan going in a T-shirt and warm up suit down the street in those days.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=8897.0,8923.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/274","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"NATHAN KATZMAN:  Let me tell. Excuse me. Let me tell you [inaudible]. You go to Sinai Temple and there's a -- a brown jacket and tan pants, that's the -- and I was -- I fought it and I fought -- and in my own temple, the rabbis were angry, but I was in my cap and gown. I said, you do whatever you want.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  I should tell you, by the way. In all fairness, you have to bear in mind that this is the late '40s and early '50s --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  No. I think it's fine.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  -- that the -- the approach in those days was what it is [inaudible]. Today, perhaps, the guys --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  No.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  -- can go in sports jackets….","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=8923.0,8953.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/275","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"NEIL LEVIN:  No. I don't think. But it says, on the pulpit, the candidate should wear a robe and a hat always when on the pulpit. Of course, I personally agree with that, but that's got nothing to do with anything.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  You disagree?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  I agree.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  He agrees.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Of course.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  But that's something else.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  You want to be a part of the people.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Yeah. Well --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  That's no good. There has to be, you know, a separation. [Inaudible.]\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Well, you see, there was a time --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Yeah. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  -- when --","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=8953.0,8977.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/276","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JULIUS BLACKMAN:  Different times change.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  But -- but that's why, you know, it dissipated, the cantor because of all these things.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  No. It's -- yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  It was a gradual slippage.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Now, you have here --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  -- this is -- I'm interested in this. Also in 1953 --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  That was a heavy year.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  -- criticism of national body.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Cantors Assembly of America, your criticism on the lack of proper contact with the west coast region --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  -- on matters of legislation.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Right.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Suggested that in the future, the national body inform us of all new legislation. Suggest in the future national body inform us of all new legislation in matters of importance. Now -- so even then, you felt kind of not taken seriously by the --","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=8977.0,9018.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/277","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JULIUS BLACKMAN:  Yeah. We felt that --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  No. On the contrary. No. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003e[Cross talk]\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  They were very -- go ahead.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  [inaudible.]\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  No. No. No.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  [Inaudible.]\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  They used to even say, aha, the west coast are the --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Oh. Those rebels at the west --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  [Inaudible.]\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  No. We felt, and still feel, frankly -- I still feel that way, the Cantors Assembly is a national body.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Mm-hmm.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  That the top spokespeople for the national Assembly are the officers; no question. And between conventions, they have to represent the body as a whole. But at the same time, as part of the body, as entities within the body, unless it's some kind of emergency that required --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Mm-hmm.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  -- immediate action, we felt that we should be consulted. And I was a member of the national council for a number of years. So was Nate. And we felt that at least the members of the national council should be consulted or be informed of what decisions were being taken so that we could be able to discuss this among our people and not be confronted with fait accompli every time something was made.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=9018.0,9079.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/278","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"So we conveyed that forcefully to the -- and where we made our reports to the national convention, invariably, ours was the most forceful. Ours was the most -- had the most content to offer. We had achievements to record that nobody else did, other than three concerts and a discussion. You know, we had things that we accomplished.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=9079.0,9097.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/279","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"NEIL LEVIN:  It -- it talks about a conference here. Did that ever take place? A three day conference in hazzones. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Oh. Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Oh. Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  It was in Sacramento.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  You had that done.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  We had the conference. Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  And in Palm Springs.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  And in Palm Springs. And we had some down in the -- oh. No. In -- yeah. In San Diego, we went also.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  San Diego. I remember. Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Yeah. Saxon was down there.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Saxon.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=9097.0,9119.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/280","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JULIUS BLACKMAN:  Now, we -- we were an involved group. You know, Nate and I carried the ball, but I want you to know we had other people who were actively involved. Leon Bennett.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  What about the school? What about the -- when the Cantors Assembly was involved in persuading the Seminary to open the cantor -- cantorial school?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  What was the involvement here, if any?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=9119.0,9141.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/281","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JULIUS BLACKMAN:  We had -- we had reservations, both of us. We felt -- I think I mentioned a little bit at the -- at lunch. We felt that they were giving away the -- the child -- you know, the baby with the dish water, you know?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Throwing them.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  They were throwing out the baby with the dish water. We felt the Assembly should maintain a degree of independence. I still feel that way, frankly. I think now the Assembly comes crawling on their knees so they can get an office in the Assembly and be recognized so the top knockers can be recognized. But when it comes all over the country, the recognition for the individual cantor and Assembly is down to here. And that if the Assembly maintained its independence and established its own levels of -- of independence on schools even -- and I told you the story, you know, Nate recalls. We -- we had gone to the -- we went to the university, we wanted courses for cantors. I think I mentioned it to you --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Right.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003e","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=9141.0,9193.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/282","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JULIUS BLACKMAN:  -- but that was at the dinner table -- at lunch. This is not. We went to Max Vorspan and to Greenberg and we asked for courses for cantors just as they had courses for rabbis conducted by cantors. They told us we didn't have any credentialed professors, therefore they couldn't do it. And nothing we could say would move them. So we went to Hebrew Union College where Zeldon was, at that time, the executive director. He whiffled and waffled, but the bottom line was unless we joined the ACC, no so. So we went to the University of Southern California where they had a school of sacred music. Not Jewish, but sacred music. And they were ready to give us courses and they would take our instructors and give them accreditation and give the students accreditation. And we would have courses. Jewish music at the University of Southern California School of Sacred Music. So we went back and told Max Vorspan. And Max said, Julie, don't be in such a hurry. Let me talk to Simon Greenberg. And of course, we got our courses.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  So it worked as -- as leverage.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003e","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=9193.0,9259.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/283","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JULIUS BLACKMAN:  Yeah. And it worked. And Labe Glance started a course on nusaḥ. A beautiful course. We all enjoyed.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  A great intellectual.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Yeah. He was a really --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Now --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  -- knowledgeable guy.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  All right. Now, let me ask you this.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  And Nate and I taught a course on practical hazzanut; remember?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  All right. The -- kind of two different things here that --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  -- I'm talking about at the same time. One is -- all right. In Los Angeles, the University of Judaism, which was connected with the Seminary much more --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  -- directly than it is --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Mm-hmm.  Yeah.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=9259.0,9280.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/284","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"NEIL LEVIN:  -- today because Simon Greenberg had to approve it and so forth.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  That was in the '50s.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  All right. And they had that course.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  All right.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Two courses. And matter of fact, they had two semesters because one semester was Labe Glance and -- and Nate and I. Then they had a course when they were --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  All right.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  -- [inaudible.]\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Now -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  And Nate Pressman taught.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Two questions.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  How fa- -- how long -- how -- how long did that last? How many years?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Semester.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Just those two semesters.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  And that was the end of it. Never happened again. Succinctly, why? Was it not successful?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Succinctly, because, frankly -- well, it was successful. They had -- we had about 15 students. Not only --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  So why didn't they --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  -- cantors but --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Why didn't they continue it?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  -- and a couple of organists. Well, they didn't continue partly I think because we didn't push hard enough.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=9280.0,9327.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/285","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"NEIL LEVIN:  All right.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Or we were involved --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  So we meaning the Cantors Assembly region.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  All right.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  We were involved. They didn't --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  All right.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  -- do anything for it.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  But they did have -- and that was -- so -- so what year again was that? Fifty --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Fifty -- must've been '55, '56.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  There about. Okay. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Now, it wasn't there -- by that time, the Cantors Assembly -- the Cantors Institute existed at the Seminary.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  In New York. Right.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Was it for that reason that the -- if you want to study, go there.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Cantors -- Cantors Institute existed years before.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Yeah. Had nothing to do with that.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Had nothing to do with that.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  This wasn't meant to replace that.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=9327.0,9353.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/286","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JULIUS BLACKMAN:  No. We -- we were trying to extend it and deepen our --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Right.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  -- involvement of the -- in the area, in the region.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  So why -- so -- but you had students. You had takers.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  We had 15 students in the -- 14, 15.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  And -- and -- and it -- it just didn't -- it wasn't pushed again the next year.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  They didn't push --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Was the music -- but there was -- in '55, '56 -- following '55, '56, was there another type of music course or anything ever given at the -- at the UJ?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=9353.0,9378.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/287","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JULIUS BLACKMAN:  Well, they have -- I don't know. Frankly, I don't think so.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  No.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  If I may just interrupt.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  But I mean, Helfman was involved there. So --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Helfman. Yes. But he had nothing to do with that.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  He had nothing to do with that.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  That's what I'm saying. This has nothing to do with this.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  No. Helfman was, at that time, with the university and the --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  The University of Judaism.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Not this university.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  He didn't -- yeah. That's what I'm saying. And he didn't --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  But Helfman wasn't interested at that time. He was [inaudible.]\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  But you're talking about -- we're talking about this course for --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  -- cantorial but —\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  -- at the UJ; right? \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  But what was Helfman doing differently from this then?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Nothing.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Nothing. He was doing --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Not at that time. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  -- [inaudible.]\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  He was busy as Brandeis -- the Brandeis.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Not Brandeis. I'm talking about the University of Judaism.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  No. No. But he did --","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=9378.0,9410.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/288","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"NEIL LEVIN:  Helfman had an involvement at the University of Judaism.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  But Helfman died very soon after that, for one thing.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  In '62, I think.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Secondly, Helfman was involved -- was more interested in doing the kind of things with Zemach in the productions.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Yeah. He wasn't interested.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  He wasn't interested in -- in [inaudible.]\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  He had a chorus there or something?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  He wanted to start a course, but never had a chance.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Oh. He had a general course for layman or something; no?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Yes. He was very successful.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  A most successful person. His charm and -- and -- and all the great actors and -- Jewish actors, that is -- and producers and directors used to flock on the weekends to be with him.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=9410.0,9441.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/289","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JULIUS BLACKMAN:  Brandeis.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  You're talking about Brandeis. I'm talking about -- about --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Oh. No.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  -- the UJ.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  No. No. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  No. He didn't do anything with the UJ.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  But he has a connection to the UJ. He had some --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Yeah. He had -- well, he had connections only the sense that he was doing these production kind of things.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Oh. That's all.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Yeah. That's all.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Not classes. Not teaching. Now, this class -- this -- this -- this thing that you got them to do is one thing and you've got records on that, I imagine, in detail if we need them --","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=9441.0,9464.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/290","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JULIUS BLACKMAN:  Yeah. I have them some place.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  -- in terms of who -- exactly who taught what. And so who -- who were the students even?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Yeah. Most of the students, you know? You know, the guys in the Assembly. Sulkov and Bennett.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  In other words, they were all willing to go --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  -- and they wanted to go.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  They went and they had to pay.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  To --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Sal Silverman. Even Sol Riskin attempted this course.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Well, wait a minute.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  [Inaudible.]\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  And [inaudible.]\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  They wanted to go to this because it was like a -- a -- a professional advancement.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=9464.0,9483.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/291","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JULIUS BLACKMAN:  It was a graduate -- [inaudible.]\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Now, what about the regions' involvement-- in general with the assemblies helping to establish the school in New York. Talk about the New York school now.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  I can -- I can also testify.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Was that in here? What was it -- yeah. That's what I want to know.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  First of all, I want to --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  I'm talking now -- I'm going back to 194- -- '48, '49.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  No, no, no. To back up a little bit, you asked a question.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Yeah.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=9483.0,9508.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/292","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"NATHAN KATZMAN:  Why did we have -- Julie and I, when you think about it, we were always cognizant of the fact that the cantors, you know, just some of them that didn't qualify every -- meaning in other words, \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Right.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  -- an intellect and -- and knowing -- having a background --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  And an orientation and a respect.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=9508.0,9524.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/293","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:\u003c/strong\u003e And even deportment. And even what you said. So we decided we'll try to teach them -- not to teach them to make them understand what is necessary for a person to get the respect of the community and especially of their own temple. That was about the dress, about everything. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAnd to teach them, for instance, not many of them knew -- what do you do at a Mi Sheberahk? What is the nusaḥ? Funerals, etc. And Pidyon HaBen. When they come and ask them, they should be able to answer. Then the purpose was -- let me say that the purpose was to put them on the same pedestal of -- of the -- of rabbinical students and the rabbinical graduates.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=9524.0,9564.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/294","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"NEIL LEVIN:  Uh-huh.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  And to say as he is a minister -- I don't have to tell you that it finally came to Supreme Court about -- and to recognize that the cantor is even more of a minister than the rabbi; remember? Maybe before your time.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  I know. I read -- there's a whole article about the guy who brought up -- he was Minneapolis; wasn't he?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  That was the purpose.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Yeah.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=9564.0,9582.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/295","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JULIUS BLACKMAN:  Part of the problem also, we recognized the fact that in the main, most of us -- after all, those were the years. The Institute had just been started very -- you know --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  -- relatively recently.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  So the men who were on pulpits, had been on pulpits for many years, I had been on pulpits for many years, Nate -- and many of the others similarly. So we came in sort of under the grandfather clause.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Right.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  I was lucky because I had -- I had gone through Talmud Torah Yavneh in Chicago and I went to the Yeshiva for a year. And I had music courses up to my neck. You know, I played the violin. I played the piano. I was a conductor and I studied -- music was one of my majors in college and so on. So I had a musical background and a Hebrew background. But it wasn't because I came from the Assembly.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=9582.0,9622.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/296","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"But many of the guys did not have all of those or even some of those. So we felt we would call it a course of practical hazzanut. Nate and I taught the course. And we took -- precisely, we took those things, a question of what kind of nusaḥ for Friday? What kind of Shabbat? What kind of festivals and the High Holy Days? The trope, the cantillations, you know, and the emanations.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Now, who -- so who are the -- so who --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  The two of us --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN: You were the chief- -- you were the chief- -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Nate and I taught those two courses.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  You were the -- you were the main faculty there.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=9622.0,9651.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/297","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JULIUS BLACKMAN:  Yeah. We took them throughout the whole thing. We didn't want them to feel that we're trying to make -- train them to be a hazzan.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Right. But again -- that's fine.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  But now, I'm talking about something else. In other words --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  What -- in the -- in 1947, let's say --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Yeah. Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  -- '48, there was this whole issue with Putterman and the -- and this Jewish Theological Seminary. And let's -- let's pin it down further. There was an issue between Putterman representing the Assembly.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Mm-hmm.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  That is to say the Assembly.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  The cantors.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  And -- and Louis Finkelstein","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=9651.0,9679.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/298","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JULIUS BLACKMAN:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  And that was the --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  It was a big fight.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  -- the central thing because Finkelstein -- all right. Now, getting -- now, what was -- and then -- and then the great rejoi- -- or the -- first place, if the -- the pushing forward and the promises --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Yes. They took -- yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  -- that well, all right. Next year. Next year. And so forth. And then eventually, the -- the -- the promise that it would be for this year. And then they -- they pledged to fund it up to a certain point from the Assembly and so forth and the opening of the school. Then it was delayed for a whole year. You know about that.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Yeah.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=9679.0,9710.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/299","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"NEIL LEVIN:  And the whole history of it.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Yeah. I know. I know. Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  All right. Now, what was the reaction of the -- of the -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Here?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  -- of here, of this region to that? Were they help -- behind it? Were they rejoicing with it? Were they helping with it?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=9710.0,9724.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/300","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"NATHAN KATZMAN:  Julie, I have something to say. Nobody remember. Putterman did come down here --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  That was for a number --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  -- because -- and -- and several times. And he -- because, you know, we carried on about it, Julie and I. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Mm-hmm.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  And here and to correspondence. Now, our cry was if I'm to go to my people -- and that time, I had very wealthy people. Extremely wealthy people. I say, I can raise big money. I said, but I want it to be part of the Seminary. Meaning, in other words, the Rabbinical Assembly, the members, they pay this, but they're recognized as the body. They were not at that time. The Institute was not known -- it was under different direction.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=9724.0,9760.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/301","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JULIUS BLACKMAN:  It was separate.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Separate from the -- and it was just for raising funds, etc. So Putterman and I complained and I said, I won't do it, he won’t do it, because I want to be recognized. Furthermore --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Now, I -- I've got to stop you.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  This is very -- you're -- I'll explain it to you why.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Okay. Anyhow.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  What do you mean by to be recognized equally?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  I wanted to be recognized as a minister. The same --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  By whom?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  By -- by the community.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  The Seminary.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=9760.0,9783.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/302","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"NATHAN KATZMAN:  By the Seminary, particularly.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  By the Seminary.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  By the community. You know why? \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  But in specifics, what was -- what was on your mind?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Because when you came --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  With the Seminary. As far as the Seminary.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Yeah. The Seminary. When you came to a -- a meeting, the biggest meeting in town, etc.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Mm-hmm.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  And if it was the men's club, if it were the --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Mm-hmm.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  -- Sisterhood from --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Right.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Everything was mentioned. The teacher Instituted this and this. Never a word about the cantor.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  All right. So --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Never.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  All right.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  So I said --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Did it ever come up --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  -- about it being called a Cantors Institute instead of the cantorial school?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=9783.0,9808.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/303","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:\u003c/strong\u003e No. So what -- so I -- so what happened was, I know we were in a very rich man's house; remember? And Putterman was there from Sinai. And I got a hold of -- we talked about it. And I said, look, we are not going to raise a dime unless you are going to give the respect that is due to us to you. And I also I once visited the Seminary and I saw where the cantor was, in a little hole -- cubby hole there and I was embarrassed. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eI says, I'm not going to go in there, you see, because everybody had an office. Everybody. Everybody. Teachers, etc. So I said, no. And we decided -- you go ahead.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=9808.0,9844.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/304","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"NEIL LEVIN:  No. No. No. Continue. This is very important.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  So we decided unless --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Either one of you.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  I'll get to it as soon as Nate finishes.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Also, but -- I'm finished. Then I said, tell you what? You want to know something, I said to David Putterman— and he was a nice man.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Mm-hmm.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  So I said, you want to know what bothers me? I said, cantors, there is no differentiation. I said, we'd be much greater strength if we went Reform and Orthodox together. Because if you take a -- my father used to say, from a big -- big piece of cloth, you can make a smaller one, you know? But -- but once it -- it's disjointed and they kept us apart like that. So we said, unless you can do something about it -- so he said, Nate, be -- be patient. You'll see, it'll come. It'll come. But it died.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  It never came.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=9844.0,9880.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/305","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"NATHAN KATZMAN:  It never came. And it continued like that. See? So --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  So we felt -- everybody else -- the Rabbinical Assembly would get together with the United Synagogue and they would have joint campaigns every year to raise funds for the Seminary. Not for the rabbinical -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Mm-hmm.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  -- the rabbinical school.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Mm-hmm.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  For the Seminary. And the rabbinical school is part of the Seminary teacher's Institute.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Mm-hmm.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  It's part of the Seminary. Cantors Institute is part of the Seminary. But we were put in the position of raising money for the Cantors Institute. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Separate.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  We said, we'll raise money, but we'll raise money for the Seminary provided the Cantors Institute is recognized equally as a branch of the Seminary. And in this region --","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=9880.0,9919.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/306","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JULIUS BLACKMAN: If you’ll see some of the other minutes, in fact there are correspondence where they made it a point to send directives out to the presidents of every congregation instructing them that they have to recognize when they recognize a rabbi on the pulpit and whoever else is on the pulpit the cantor on the pulpit has to be recognized also. Not for that [inaudible] but because the cantor is part and parcel of the body of the congregation professional [inaudible]\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN: And then what happened? Did you proceed…\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Well, they didn't do it. So we --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Didn't do it.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  We --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  They didn't.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=9919.0,9948.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/307","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JULIUS BLACKMAN:  We persisted and felt that we would raise money only under those terms. And otherwise, we would participate as we had. We had to make a distinction. We will participate and we did participate with congregations.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Mm-hmm.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  We rai- -- we did con- -- we did concerts in every congregation.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  To raise money for -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Well, they raised money for --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  -- the Assembly.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  -- themselves. For themselves. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Right.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  For the congregation. We gave our services free.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  I see.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  The cantors didn't charge. The only people we paid were the pianists.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  No. But you see, there was thing in -- in the beginning -- I mean, let -- let me --","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=9948.0,9979.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/308","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JULIUS BLACKMAN:  Go ahead. It's a fine distinction.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  It's a fine distinction. Ostensibly, the story is, you know, on the surface, Finkelstein -- there had been agitation for a school.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Yeah. For many years.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  For many years. Before the war, there had been agitation also, not directly, but okay. After there was direct agitation and meetings and so forth and committees. Now, I don't know if anybody out here was on the committee. The national committee. Was anyone here?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  I was. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Were you on the national committee?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  I was a member of the national council.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=9979.0,10013.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/309","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"NEIL LEVIN:  I'm talking about the late '40s. The national committee --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  I was a member of the national council.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  All right. So I'm talking about involvement to induce the Seminary to open a school.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Oh. Yeah. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  All right.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  We were --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Then the -- basically what happened was that they said, well, we can't because we don't have the funds.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Mm-hmm.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  All right? So --","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=10013.0,10034.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/310","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JULIUS BLACKMAN:  I'll tell what I confronted Simon Greenberg with specifically. He said, we can't do it because it's a question of the funds. And this also has to do with the courses.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Mm-hmm.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  This question of the funds, you know?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Mm-hmm.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  This is the initial approach we made. So I said, “You know, Rabbi Greenberg -- Dr. Greenberg”, to give him his due, I said, “When Theodore Herzl confronted the Jewish community, he said, if you will it, it is no dream. And I'm telling you -- and you'll pardon me for being blunt”, I said, “if the Seminary wills it, it won't be a dream. If you want the school to be there, you'll have a school.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=10034.0,10073.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/311","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"And you will have our complete support and you'll have our complete involvement in supporting the Seminary. But we're not going to -- as far as I'm concerned, I'm not going to knock myself out to raise money for a school that is going to be separate -- a separate entity.” And, you know, we walk -- you know, it reminds me -- I don't know if you remember when Roosevelt ran for president the first time in 1932, there was a -- a famous cartoon because it had been predicted as Maine goes --","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=10073.0,10101.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/312","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"NEIL LEVIN:  So goes the nation.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  -- so goes the nation.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Right.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  So when the election came, the only other state that went was Vermont. So there's a famous cartoon in the Chicago Sun-Times, which says all the states are going to the White House and then Maine and Vermont are going to the doghouse. And the caption was, as Maine goes, so goes Vermont. I said, we weren't interested in going with Maine and Vermont. We're interested in being part of and part and parcel of the Seminary qua Seminary.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=10101.0,10130.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/313","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"NEIL LEVIN:  Right. And of course --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  And the Teachers Institute.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  And -- and -- and --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  And the Teachers Institution.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Right. And what was -- and I'm -- I'm -- I'm curious --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Never got to the point.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  He never --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Never got to the point.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  No. To be recognized --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  You see, I'll tell you why.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Because we had -- now, the issue has come up recently --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  -- where students -- students finally went and -- and you have to have something specific instead of recognized. Well, you are recognized. What do you mean now? Of course, in those days, you realize that it meant -- you haven't pinned it. I'm pinning it for you. In the '50s, cantorial students couldn't live in the -- could not live in the dormitory.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=10130.0,10159.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/314","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"NATHAN KATZMAN:  Exactly.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  That's the -- that's the kind of thing --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Exactly.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  -- you mean; isn't it?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Exactly. Exactly.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Exactly. Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  I'm asking you. All right. Because the dormitories are for rabbinical students.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Yeah.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=10159.0,10166.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/315","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"NEIL LEVIN:  Now, our students, maybe 12 years ago, came -- formulated the term \"stepchild\" and they said the Cantors Institute is the stepchild of the Seminary.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Exactly.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  And students went to -- and -- and I’m asking this is the kind of thing you mean?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Yes.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  They went to the -- of course, that has changed a lot now. A lot. But they -- they went to the chancellor and they said, why is it called the Cantors Institute? It's not called the rabbinical Institute.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  If it's called the rabbinical school, should be called cantorial school.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Cantorial school. Right. Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Right.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=10166.0,10193.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/316","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"NEIL LEVIN:  And it's -- you know that on March 21st, it's being -- it's being -- because somebody gave $5 million, so they're going to call it the H.L. Miller -- never mind, but just -- but cantorial school. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Not --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Oh. I see.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Now, of course the question is how much would it cost to endow the rabbinical school? Probably more than 5 million, but what -- whatever it is --","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=10193.0,10212.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/317","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JULIUS BLACKMAN:  What I'm telling is this. We feel and felt that if we really -- I -- and I -- I'm now not with a congregation --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  -- and I can talk easily in that sense. But any cantor -- if I were with a congregation, I guarantee you, if this were part of the Seminary with a proper recognition and proper relationship --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Mm-hmm.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  -- I could go out to my congregants -- I have had a couple of big congregations.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Mm-hmm.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  I was at the VJCC and we had Art Whizin and a lot of people whose respect I had and who -- a number of others also. I could go to those guys that raise money. I never felt I wanted to because I felt I was just --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Right.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=10212.0,10251.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/318","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JULIUS BLACKMAN:  -- caving in to a -- to a bureaucracy and --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  But what about -- what about the assem- -- of course, now, then there's other side of the question. The question, what of the Assembly?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  You see, the -- the -- the money wasn't being raised for the Seminary. It was being raised for the Assembly.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  And the Assembly would -- would give it. Now, the -- the -- would give it to the Seminary because Putterman came back to -- Finkelstein said to Putterman, you go out and raise $25,000 and then we'll open a school. Look, the accepted wisdom is that Finkelstein was ho- -- was hoping that he would never see him again because who in the hell could raise $25,000?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=10251.0,10284.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/319","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JULIUS BLACKMAN:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  I mean, the accepted wisdom is that Finkelstein was -- was -- was never -- was bluffing and that was it because he didn't want the school there.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  And Putterman came back and --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  And called his bluff.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  -- and -- within the year and said, I've got the $25,000. Now, it says here -- but then, of course, I've -- they were supposed to every year. Now, it says here -- and here's a meeting in '53, which is a couple of years later, motion by you --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Yeah.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=10284.0,10308.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/320","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eNEIL LEVIN:\u003c/strong\u003e -- by -- by Katzman. Following the principle of rabbis that you wanted the letter sent to New York in support of the Seminary fundraising drive in the form of a concert. Not concerts for individual segments of overall Seminary program, such as for the Cantors Institute.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=10308.0,10321.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/321","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JULIUS BLACKMAN:  Yeah. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  That's what --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  That's what you're saying.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  That's the essence.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Right. And Sulkov -- this is the same Sulkov who was --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Yes.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  -- later in Baltimore, right?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  He was at the Olympic committee.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Right.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  He was a fighter.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  He was a fighter, too.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  He was a fighter.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Oh. Yes.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  A prize fighter?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=10321.0,10333.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/322","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"NATHAN KATZMAN:  No. No. No.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  No.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  For justice.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Because there was a hazzan who was a prize fighter. Who was it?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Off the record. You know --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  There was a rabbi [inaudible] in San Francisco.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Off the record, you know what the they asked us, you just put your finger on it.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  I'll tell you, we wanted to be part and parcel of the Seminary. It raised millions, but it should be -- the rabbis were not asked to do that separately. They would give -- pay themselves or maybe to a few people in the congregation.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Right.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  But the -- the school was open.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Right.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Wasn't – it wasn't the same. Teachers --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Right.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  -- college was there.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Right.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  But they didn't have the -- the Institute and put them -- and promise they say yes, don’t be impatient. We'll do it.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=10333.0,10371.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/323","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"NEIL LEVIN:  But it never happened.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  But it never happened.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  It never happened.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  That's what I'm trying to say.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  And that's -- by the way, that's what we're critical about to this day.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  I'm critical of Nate Lam and of the leadership today. You know, I won't name names. I'm not --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  No. It doesn't matter. It's a difference of opinion.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  I'm critical of these guys because I feel, with all due respect, is that what they're doing is they're -- they're feathering their own nest  in a sense. Who gets the big money? You have a few cantors at big pulpits who can command large salaries.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=10371.0,10398.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/324","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"But the vast majority of the hazzanim are in middle size and small congregations don't get anywhere near that because these guys are concerned more with the -- with the manifestations and the prestige that comes from --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Nor -- nor do they --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  -- performance.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Nor do they benefit.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  They benefit because they raise a few thousand bucks, you know?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Well, but the little guys --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  But the little guys can't get --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  -- don't get any benefit from the --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  They don't get benefit from their benefits, you know?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  No.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  They just get the headache to go with it.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=10398.0,10423.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/325","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"NEIL LEVIN:  Unless they're on the executive council --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Unless they're on the executive council --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  -- and they get some free trips to New York and all that.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  -- and they curry favor from a few k’nockers and that's it. And I feel that they have to establish a leadership that is concerned with hazzunut qua hazzanut and not with Nate Lam, president, or “Chaim Yankel”, president or whatever.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=10423.0,10439.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/326","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"NEIL LEVIN:  Well, they give, of course --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  A half a million dollars, yes? Take a look. And I -- and there's a God above us. I'm not jealous. I don't need it.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  What's a half a million dollars?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  The half a million dollars that was spent, you know, for -- for that thing. Who did it benefit?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=10439.0,10449.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/327","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JULIUS BLACKMAN:  For that thing.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Oh. For that -- for the -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Who did it benefit?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  You're talking about the -- no.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  The community? No.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  No. That benefited only one person.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  He had -- no. I'm going to tell you. Nothing like that.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  And a few people [inaudible.]\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Because -- because [inaudible] advice on this. So the big guy, Frankel, you know, wants to get a reputation with [inaudible]. And so he is able, he's a very good fundraiser in his own congregation and elsewhere as it is. So [inaudible] --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  [Inaudible.]\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Is this going to be --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Doesn't make a difference.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Yeah. Anyhow. So who benefited from that? Did they enhance Jewish music in the community?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  No.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=10449.0,10483.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/328","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"NATHAN KATZMAN:  Did they get good reviews in -- other than Jewish -- not even the Jewish, they didn't even mention that. So you know what I'm saying? In other words, if you want to be recognized, you have to earn -- you have to earn that recognition by deed and by word. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Mm-hmm.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  [Inaudible]. They didn't do it.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=10483.0,10499.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/329","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"[Cross talk]\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Like, I look -- I -- I'm an old man here. I've been here 50 years. And I -- and -- and he and I and we did all and I never took a dime. I -- and I worked at the community and there's a God above us. I didn't distinguish was it Jews or non-Jews. I saw there was a lot of letters. You'll see.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  I mean, real.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Mm-hmm.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Because that I felt it behooves me to do that, I never got a dime. My companies got not one dime. Now, that was good because I had the feeling that I am doing ministerial work, you know? And that there -- and there was recognition. That's the point. There was recognition by --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  And we earned recognition by the people.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  -- by the Gentiles and by the Jews equally.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=10499.0,10535.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/330","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"NEIL LEVIN:  All right. So this is -- this is actually -- there's a lot of history in here and it -- you know, the --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  I see now what you mean.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  I think I'm the only one that ever kept minutes.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Probably. Well, this will be very valuable to me. It's valuable to me now because I'm writing history --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  -- among other things.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  That's the part of it.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  And I'll take a look further and see if I have any questions. I can call you, you know?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=10535.0,10553.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/331","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"NATHAN KATZMAN:  Is one -- is one permitted to pre- -- predict what the future will be?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  I want you to predict. Yes.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Yes. You know?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Predict.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Because you know what the problem was?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Close your eyes and what do you see?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Now. While the Rabbinical Assembly has control of every member -- and I happen to know personally what happened in congregation where I was.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  And also at -- where they only sent one or two people on a position. And they sent the people that would suit that position. Here, you have, you know, there’s a position open now. So five, six, 10 from all over already sent in their applications. And one, a woman, spoiled a position because she was part-time. Now, they decided they're not going to have part-time. Where it should have paid 70 or $80,000.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=10553.0,10592.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/332","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"What happens is -- now, this is the point that bothers me. What happens is that if I were or Julie were at that time, we'd go to the president, we say, now, look, you have good people here. Exhaust the material that you have here. If there's no one that suits you, fine. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Then --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Then go advertise.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  But they've been advertising in New York all around. What -- and one round on top of the other.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Mm-hmm.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=10592.0,10615.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/333","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:\u003c/strong\u003e And instead of having -- when we control it, there are two people who come, three people who come and that's it. You have to choose from them. So -- but there's no organization. If -- if it -- if it's off of record. Gole and Lam are one organization. Mayer and -- and the -- Frankel is one -- another organization. And the others are just nothing. Don't count. Just sheep. So why should I go to -- to meetings then?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=10615.0,10642.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/334","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JULIUS BLACKMAN:  I have to tell you I attended a meeting last year when I was down visiting my daughter and I attended a meeting of the Assembly.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Where? Here?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Here. Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Here?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  As it happens I’m a member, you know, for good reason.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  And they were having a meeting. So [inaudible] picked me up and we went there. So they're having a discussion. This was pre-Passover and they're having a discussion about Passover songs and new things and so forth and so on. And I see nobody's taking minutes. They're having a free-for-all discussion about this, about that. I says, don't you people take minutes? No. It's not a -- a -- what do you call it? Meeting. I says, what constitutes a regular meeting?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=10642.0,10680.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/335","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"They said, well, we send notices for meetings. I said, who takes minutes? Do you have a record of your minutes? They don't have any records. So I said to them, I don't know how you function. All I know is I know now why I kept the minutes of the -- the Assembly when I was president. I have -- I have the minutes and there's a record, historically, of what happened in those. Otherwise, it's [Yiddish]. It's crazy.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  They don't care.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  And this is what happened with -- you know, with these people. It's all a matter of prestige and covenant. Prestige and covenant. You know, we earn our own, but for the profession --","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=10680.0,10713.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/336","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"NEIL LEVIN:  Well --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  You know, I'm going tell you something.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Tell me.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Very important.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  How active we were. I don't know if you remember. With the old organization, the old timers, they were tremendous hazzanim, [inaudible], etc. What did we talk about? We talked for retirement for --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  You're talking about the Farband now.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Yeah. That's --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  And later wanted to carry it over to the --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  To the Assembly.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  -- Assembly.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Yeah.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=10713.0,10732.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/337","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:\u003c/strong\u003e And to raise instead raising for the Institute to raise money for -- if somebody wants to borrow some money. And to have a library -- a -- a lending library of all kinds of music. We went up there. I don't know if you remember. So I brought up one thing. I said, look. When the Christians go to a church, you know, in the Protestant church, he can participate wherever he goes. Why?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=10732.0,10752.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/338","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Because the melodies that the people are supposed -- \"holy, holy, holy,\" and whatever are familiar to them. So I -- I said, why can't -- and the Rabbinical Assembly was there. Why can't we do the same? Why does every cantor want to do his own schtick, you know? Why can't we have a -- a -- just for congregation? You want us to do improvisation, that's fine. So that fell by the way. They wouldn't -- they wouldn't listen. They did whatever. They continued.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Well, even proposed. I made a specific proposal. I said, let's do it one month during the -- during Jewish music month --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  -- we can start. We'll pick a half a dozen congregational melodies that every congregation, all of us --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Will learn.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=10752.0,10790.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/339","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JULIUS BLACKMAN:  -- in our congregation. Same Ve’Shamru, Lekha Dodi, Mi Khamokha\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  To make some standardization. Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Some -- half a dozen. Do that for that month and every congregation will do those same melodies. Then you can use whatever you want during the rest of the year. Gradually, if you do that at other times --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Mm-hmm.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  -- you'll be -- first off, you'll be training congregants to have melodies that -- with --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Mm-hmm.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  -- which --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Mm-hmm.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  -- they're familiar.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Mm-hmm.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  And secondly, you'll have some kind of --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  So who did you propose this to?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  To the board -- to the Assembly.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  No. Here. Here. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Regional, not national, right?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Well, national, that -- that --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Forget it.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  -- team is part of a national --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  All right. And what was the res- --","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=10790.0,10821.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/340","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JULIUS BLACKMAN:  By the way, I have papers that I gave. I'll give -- I don't know if you saw them there. I gave you papers at the '51, '52, '53.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Well, we'll copy all those. Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Ninety-one, '92. And one of them, I -- I did a paper on the -- the hazzan as seen from a seat in the congregation. And I touched on the hazzanim who -- who pitched it so high that the congregation can't sing. So they -- they have to drop an octave below in order to stay on it. So obviously they drop out.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  So --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Or else, he's listening to the pear shaped tone and he stays and stays and unnoted to after --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  -- everybody's finished. Some people drop out.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  So what was the response?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  They didn't cooperate.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  I got -- I got responses from some of the guys. From a guy in New York was very impressed.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Who responded? Who -- who agreed with you --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  What's his name?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  -- on an idea like this?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Somebody in New York. Somebody told me about him who -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Oh. This is --","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=10821.0,10866.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/341","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JULIUS BLACKMAN:  -- who -- who said --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Because --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  -- you know, that Blackman fellow --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  What -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  -- sounded very interesting.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  This is what?  Again, what year? What timeframe?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  1993. It's in the --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  This is just very recently --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Yeah. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  -- that you proposed this.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Ninety-three.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  You never proposed it earlier, this kind of an idea.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  I proposed it in sessions that they -- you know, they used to have a sing-fest.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  And they conclude the -- the conventions --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Right.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  -- at the Assembly -- remember at the Assembly?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Right.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  So I proposed -- I wanted -- in fact, you know who I told it to? Oliver Shamis [ph]. He's a tremendous guy. He used to play the piano at the sing-fest. Jacob [inaudible]\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Oh. Honan. Yeah. Honan. Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Yeah. Oh. He was great.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Well, he would've -- but now, who -- now --","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=10866.0,10901.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/342","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JULIUS BLACKMAN:  [Inaudible]. Who you going to talk to?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Well --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  You come to the guys here and they're all -- each one is working down his own street.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Well, it's a question. I'm wondering, for example, Maury Shamis [ph.]\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Shamis? \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Yeah. He's a --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Shamis.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  I think he's a nice boy. I don't know.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  No. Whatever. But he -- he -- he would in principle agree with --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Is that right? \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  -- that kind of thing.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  I don't know him that well.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=10901.0,10920.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/343","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"NEIL LEVIN:  That doesn't mean he'll do anything about it.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  There's a difference. There's a big difference.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  There's a difference. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Wouldn't it be --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  I'm an active --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Wouldn't it be sensible to go and talk to the executive director to -- to -- to Rosenbaum?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Well --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  I wrote letters and letters. Finally, I gave up.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Well, that's a whole other subject for a different time.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=10920.0,10936.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/344","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JULIUS BLACKMAN:  I proposed to Rosenbaum. This has to do --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  -- with me personally. I said, you know, Sam -- you know, I've known him for many years. In fact, when his name was proposed for executive director -- executive vice president --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  -- Charlie Suddock [ph], who was president of the Assembly told me later, he says, I propose your name. And -- but he said -- but he said, well, he's all the way out in California. What can he do in San Francisco? He was right. And he said -- and I said, well, I wouldn't have been able to take it anyway. But the point is that we proposed -- we made all kinds of proposals, to which nobody listened. I mean, they listened and a lot of them nodded their assent.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Mm-hmm.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=10936.0,10973.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/345","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JULIUS BLACKMAN:  We fought over here to establish procedures and get things done, which we did here. And then it just got vitiated with -- and gradually it's been a -- a -- sort of a decrease in influence and -- and acceptance of these ideas. I called Sam Rosenbaum. I said, you know, Sam, I've been cantor now as long as the Assembly's been in existence. I've been in the Assembly 49, 50 years. I never got any recognition as a fellow of the Assembly or anything else. Even though, while I left the pulpit as a full-time cantor, I still retained my -- in fact, they wanted to ask me to remain a -- a -- to resign as a full-time member and to become a -- sort of a friend of the Assembly. I don't know what it was.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003e","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=10973.0,11017.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/346","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JULIUS BLACKMAN:  And I wrote them a very indignant letter. I said, I put too much of myself into this and I -- we  praised all the things --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Mm-hmm.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  -- that it accomplished. So they said, all right. You stay as a regular member of the Assembly, but they wouldn't make me a fellow. Even though musically, I've still been a member of the Assembly for all these years.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  [inaudible.]\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Huh?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=11017.0,11034.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/347","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"NATHAN KATZMAN:  Why not? Everybody is.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003e[BJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Ask Sam. He made it.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Everybody was made a fellow.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  What do you mean?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  A fellow.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  To become a fellow of the Assembly if you've been --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Well, no. That's a -- yeah. I forget. There's three different categories. You mean a fellow of the Cantors Institute -- fellow of the Seminary.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Yeah. Seminary.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  There's a difference. There's honorary after a certain number of years.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  You know, unless -- unless there is an --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  I don't qualify. I was only on pulpits 18 years.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=11034.0,11055.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/348","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"NEIL LEVIN:  No. Everyone's entitled. It's a -- the one thing is after --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  He said no.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  -- 10 years, one's after 20 years. Well, he said no.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  He said no.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  A very important point.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Well, he said no.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  And that which I want to bring up. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  I lived without it.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  [Inaudible] . And I brought up nationally because I was the national -- and he -- I said, if a cantor, any cantor has been with the congregation three years, you obviously found something to -- about him that you like. And you are -- it's incumbent upon you to go and give him just the five year. And eventually after five years, give him a -- a retirement, you know? Not for a permanent, you know? What do you call it?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Tenure.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=11055.0,11095.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/349","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"NATHAN KATZMAN:  Tenure. Give him tenure. Why? I said, because then he'll serve you properly. He'll know that I'm secure and he won't have to go looking into some other things --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Mm-hmm.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  -- to supplement his salary and it'll be better for you. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  So neither the Assembly, which we brought up, would go and talk like that or call us that. Sometimes they called when they were losing the jobs. Would call us and say, you got congregation. Talk to the president. In those days, there was some impetus in the --","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=11095.0,11122.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/350","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JULIUS BLACKMAN:  We had a rapport with the leadership in the movement.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Some strength and a rapport that they listened. See? And I forgot. When Frankel came and wanted a job, I got him a job. If the guy in -- in Palm -- in Palm Springs, you know, came and -- and every Shabbos cried on my shoulder --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Mm-hmm.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=11122.0,11135.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/351","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"NATHAN KATZMAN:  -- from Israel, I called up the rabbi, I called up Cykowsky and maybe Cykowsky didn't like me after that because -- yes. I think so.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN: He’s unhappy with the [Inaudible.]\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  And got him a job right away and he's there. And he thinks [Yiddish]. But what I'm trying to say is that if there would've been an akhdus or a little respect – self-respect, then they could've been like this. [holds hand up to show ‘high’] And they could've been -- don't misunderstand. I don't want to compete with rabbis. I -- and that was my old cry all the time. I say, I am a hazzan. I am a shaliach tzibbur. I am a musician. I said, I have nothing to do.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=11135.0,11168.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/352","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"NATHAN KATZMAN:  I don't compete with the rabbi, etc. And therefore, I expect that I am -- but today -- today -- and that's what bothers me. Who interviewed the cantors? Who's in charge of intake? The rabbi. You cannot get into any of the congregations unless you speak first with the rabbi. Do they come to the hazzan to ask about the rabbi? [inaudible]. So that's the problem and I -- I lost interest completely. That's all.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  You have to understand, this is not something like a trade union because sometimes you get the feeling that --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  [inaudible.]\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  -- [inaudible.]","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=11168.0,11197.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/353","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"NEIL LEVIN:  No. I know what it is.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  It's a professional organization.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  You want to be treated professionally.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  You want to be treated equal clergy as co-clergy.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  And established.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  But, of course, look --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  [Inaudible.]\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  I'll just say this. I mean, it is --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  I want to make one other point.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  It has been accepted --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Yeah. One other point, then I'll -- \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  I'll shut up.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  No. No.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=11197.0,11211.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/354","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JULIUS BLACKMAN:  We -- you may -- may have noticed there, but for -- there was a period when we tried to establish a unified cantorial body here in the city. We met with the ACC members; remember? We had four meetings.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  [Inaudible.] Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  And with the orthodox --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Yeah. A lot.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=11211.0,11228.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/355","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:\u003c/strong\u003e -- to try and establish a -- a unified cantorial body for Los Angeles for the southern California. And we were getting somewhere, you know? Eddie Crawl was involved, Barry Cohen, then he joined Assembly later. But numbers of others with reform temples. And we were beginning to make progress. And who steps in? The reform movement stepped in and the Rabbinical Assembly and they were not so happy about that -- that -- about that development.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=11228.0,11255.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/356","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"NEIL LEVIN:  Well, there you are. That's --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  And it just -- they stepped out of the --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Then the question evolves again. Excuse me. So then why do we have to contribute it to be -- to the Institute?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  But you don't contribute to the Institute anyway because --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Because they don't give you --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Well, I'm going to say one thing.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  I mean, you know, we've been talking -- we keep talking about --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  -- your --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Yeah. Yeah. I know.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=11255.0,11272.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/357","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"NEIL LEVIN:  -- [inaudible] Institute. And none of this has to do -- this -- this fund- -- this fundraising campaign from 1947, '48 on and it was supposed to be annual to this day is to get -- raise money for the Cantors Assembly.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Cantors Assembly. Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  And trust that they will give it to the Seminary.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Properly. Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  But there's no guarantee about how much anyway. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  So that's a whole other story.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  And that's another matter altogether.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  You're not talking about raising -- if you have a -- if -- if -- if a cantor's asked to have a concert in his synagogue --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Mm-hmm.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  -- aren't you talking about the annual concert for the Cantors Assembly?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=11272.0,11303.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/358","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"NATHAN KATZMAN:  Some of them do.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Some of them do.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Some of them do.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Most don't.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  And if they raise a half a million dollars for the Cantors Assembly, let's say --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  -- they turn the check over to the Assembly.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Most of the people who gave the money -- understand --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  -- something.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  That most of the people who gave the money, if you were next day say you raised a half a million dollars, by the way, you -- where did you -\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  What happened?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=11303.0,11322.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/359","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"NEIL LEVIN:  Where -- where -- where do you think the money's going? Oh. It's all going to the Seminary. It's not. It's going to -- to 155th Avenue. Well, now, it's moved. But it's going to the --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  -- to the Cantors Assembly.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  The Assembly. Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  And it doesn't necessarily -- it does not bind the Assembly to give more that year than they gave the previous year when they only raised $100.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Yeah. Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  To pledge here -- and you have -- it was for $25,000 a year.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=11322.0,11343.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/360","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JULIUS BLACKMAN:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  So that's a whole other story. But anyway, I want to move to something else.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Okay. Yeah. Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  In 1948, I see a -- a -- a press release here about a contest for liturgical music.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Now, you got active in -- in -- in -- or you were interested --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  That was in my congregation.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  -- in commissioning new music?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  We -- my congregation, our music council conducted a contest in honor of Paul Discount, who had been a composer and a --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Mm-hmm.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  -- cantor for many years.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  And he -- this was when he was ill?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  In his hon- -- no. This was --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  This was before then.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=11343.0,11370.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/361","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JULIUS BLACKMAN:  ---but we didn't know he was dying then. But in his honor, we conducted a contest for an original Sabbath Eve service, five settings, Hashkiveinu, Kiddush, May the Words, VeShamru, Ma Tovu - of music for the Sabbath Eve service. And the winning entries were Maury Goldstein and -- and Lou Maury. But it was in honor -- in honor of Paul Discount because --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  I see.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  -- of his years of dedication.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  That was in '48.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Yeah. That was '48.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=11370.0,11399.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/362","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"NEIL LEVIN:  And who -- was it you -- you instigated that?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  It was my congregation.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Uh-huh. Did you do anything like that with San Francisco? Any -- any --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Well, we had a --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  -- commissioning of new works? Or --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  No. No.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Did you ever commission any new works in your congregation?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  No. No. Because we did the -- we did [inaudible] and all those classics. That's what we did. And some Helfman and -- and -- and Yanowski --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Yeah. That's what we did. Instead of commission -- rather instead of competition --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  But --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  But when you -- when --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  -- we -- we got the Toch work and the --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  All right.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  -- and the Tedesco work. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  But that -- that --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  That was done by the --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Community.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=11399.0,11434.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/363","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JULIUS BLACKMAN:  -- by the University of Judaism Music Council.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  University of Judaism. Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Now, when -- you just mentioned repertoires and synagogues.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Yes.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  But what -- that -- up until, let's say, the time you retired, you did a pretty classical repertoire.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Very. And let me tell you. Every week, we had new -- Revolski [ph], this or that, all the them. The classics. I had double [inaudible]. Now, I mention you, top -- top notch people from the university.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Mm-hmm.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  And we spent time. And you know what we did? In order to attract people in the -- like liturgical music --","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=11434.0,11472.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/364","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"NEIL LEVIN:  Mm-hmm.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  -- we would have Elijah [inaudible], we'd have the -- for -- what's for Christmas, the Hallelujah, you know? We would have all of these things. And even -- even did so that we do some opera after -- after. Not in the -- not in the sanctuary. After used to have a sit down. Always a sit down. Oneg Shabbat. And Yiddish. One time we did Yiddish. One time we did Sephardic. One time they did Yemenite and things like that. And that really did something for the community where they learned all about their heritage. That's what we did.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Well, now, let me ask you this.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  I don't know if you have it there. Well, you do have it. I see United -- you have United --","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=11472.0,11511.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/365","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"NEIL LEVIN:  Yeah. This is the United Synagogue.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  This is my -- the first paper I did at the -- the -- the big thing was I opened up the “setting the tone”. The United Synagogue conducted a survey through Columbia University --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Mm-hmm.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  -- that sort of orange -- yeah. Pinkish paper there. Conducted a survey of synagogues all across the country on Sabbath attendance and all kinds of things.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=11511.0,11534.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/366","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"NEIL LEVIN:  With Columbia?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Through Columbia University.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  I don't see it here.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Yeah. It's there. Right there.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Here. You --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Oh. That booklet there.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Oh. Oh. Here. Here. Here.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Yeah. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  I see. Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  See, that's the one. Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Put this on top.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Now, that whole thing -- and there's one section of that thing called “setting the tone”. I think I opened it to that section that you see.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Yeah.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=11534.0,11552.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/367","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:\u003c/strong\u003e That dealt with attendance at congregation. Did they want music? More music? Less music? Did they want more readings? Less readings? Did they want more sermon? Less sermon? Their attitude towards attendance and so forth. And you'll notice in my paper I gave in 1951 to the Assembly convention, I was entrusted with the chore of evaluating that report from the point of view of the Assembly.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=11552.0,11575.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/368","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"And in my report, I touch on it because the congregants, as a rule, wanted more music. They would like to have some choral music. They wanted more congregational participation. They were not so crazy about long sermons. And they wanted --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Oh. Yeah. See, this is the kind of thing that we -- yeah. We'll -- we'll copy this and then I'll discuss it with you --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Yeah. You'll find it very interesting.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  -- after I read it actually because --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  And read that report --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Yeah.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=11575.0,11593.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/369","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JULIUS BLACKMAN:  -- I gave because it's a -- it deals specifically with that and I evaluated it.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  But you were involved in this.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  I -- I eval- -- I reported to the Assembly on that report.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  I'd like to talk -- I'd like you to -- to -- to initiate some things that you'd like to -- to talk about now. Both of you together, separately. You were talking about -- I mean, in terms of career, your highlights, things that are important, people you worked with, people you knew, things that have --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  -- that should be documented, that -- that we should know about.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=11593.0,11620.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/370","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"NATHAN KATZMAN:  It's -- it's a big order. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  I'll tell you people I knew. I was very impressed with Charlie Suddock, who was president of the Assembly, who was a real dedicated intelligent Jew. He had an approach to the synagogue service. I remember he once said -- he believed -- and he says, let's face it. We're not here -- I think I put it in -- in that paper --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Mm-hmm.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=11620.0,11644.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/371","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:\u003c/strong\u003e -- on the -- looking at hazzanut from the seat in the congregation. He says, we're not here to perform. We're here to pray with the people, he says. We're not praying to him nor at them. We're praying with them. So our function on a pulpit is to interpret the prayers, to involve the congregation. After all, they came here to pray. To involve the congregation in prayer. Every now and then, he says, I feel that I have something to say, that I can interpret a prayer in a way that can give special meaning. More sweetness, more kavannah, whatever the terminology that he used.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=11644.0,11680.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/372","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"NEIL LEVIN:  Mm-hmm.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  But that I see as my function. He says, whether I'm at odds with the -- so he says I never do a composition without involving the congregation. I may do a [inaudible] study at the beginning, involve them in a -- in congregation of melody and then do a little [inaudible] again. But always involve them because they are part of the congre- -- so I respected that.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=11680.0,11702.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/373","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"I respected his approach to hazzanut, to the whole concept of what the profession has to be. And part of the things that both Nate and I have -- are at odds with the Assembly, have been at odds with the Assembly from the beginning, although both of us identified ourselves strongly, actively in the -- and at no pay, you know, for the things that we did.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=11702.0,11724.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/374","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"I have a -- a -- an additional, personal issue, which is only personal to me, but it also reflects the lack of understanding on the top levels of the Assembly. I, for example, left the profession as a full-time professional some 30-odd years ago, but I was a professional for 18 years full-time. And I once asked Sam Rosenbaum, I says, you know, Sam, I think I really should be -- and I think I mentioned become a fellow of the Assembly. After all, I've been -- although I left full-time, I remained a full-time member of the Assembly.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=11724.0,11759.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/375","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"I remained active in the Northern California Board of Cantors. I was active as a member, as a conductor. I conducted every concert that they had for a number of years. And I made it a principle not to sing solos because I didn't want to compete with any of the can- -- the cantors who were on pulpit. I didn't want to feel there would be any question that I was auditioning for a job without auditioning. So I never -- I refused to sing solos until recently when, you know, I retired anyway.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=11759.0,11786.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/376","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"But I felt that as a professional, after I went for a non-profit organization, I went to the Hebrew Free Loan. I became an active leader in the Hebrew Free Loan and I'm respected in the community as a community person. And when I daven, I don't charge in the main except when I do the the High Holy Days.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=11786.0,11806.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/377","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"But here I am, been a professional serving the Jewish community. You won't see any rabbi -- like, for example, Bernie Ducoff was executive director of the Bureau of Jewish Education in San Francisco for many years. He's a Rabbinical Assembly man, a graduate in the Seminary. He gets all the recognition, all the perks that accrue to -- to that person. Here I am, who have been a professional cantor and a professional servant of the community. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eThe Hebrew Free Loan is a non-profit, very admirable organization. Serving the community and yet my own professional people, in a sense, relegate me to a secondary status because I'm not functioning as a hazzan, though I'm a community—","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=11806.0,11847.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/378","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"NEIL LEVIN:  [YIDDISH]\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Yeah. [Inaudible.]\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  But you -- you remained to this day --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  -- a -- a -- a -- a --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  A hazzan.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  -- a member of the Assembly.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Of the Assembly.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  You're still a member.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  I'm still a member.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  You're retired status, right? \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  I pay my dues. Yep.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  You pay your dues in reduced amount. What about -- okay.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  I pay my dues.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  I did not.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=11847.0,11863.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/379","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"NEIL LEVIN:  You didn't. You left. When did you leave?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Oh. Some time ago. [Inaudible]. But let me tell you this. Recently. I'm not going to go into it because it's a lengthy thing. What happened to me, it was in the press, etc. In 45 years, I worked diligently. And I told you what I did.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=11863.0,11879.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/380","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"NEIL LEVIN:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  I told you only a third of what I did. And money's not the reason. Over a million dollars left -- the God's honest truth -- because it was mentioned in court. The -- somebody comes and -- and -- and lies deliberately because they wanted to shmekhl board members. He got a raise. They ask him -- the judge ask the priest, the lawyer, she didn't even know. She was not Jewish. She didn't know what a beit din means. So she says to me, because somebody must've told her.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=11879.0,11907.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/381","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Said, well, Cantor, you had a choice. You didn't have to go to court. You could have gone to -- what is called, that beit din. I said, that's rabbinical, I said, but I -- I -- why didn't you go there? I said, I -- because I trusted. I said, I'm an American and I trusted the court more. Just that much. So they left. And then -- so he says, yeah. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eThat also -- what -- I'll tell you, I went to the president, who was Lam at that time, and I said, couldn't you come and maybe resolve this stuff? He said, I don't want to have any part of that. Is that what a president does? See? And you know -- and you know --","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=11907.0,11944.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/382","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"NEIL LEVIN:  Did you -- now, I'll ask you for a reason because I want to cut through. Did you -- so it's safe to say -- and you're not the only one. You -- you -- you would say that you were dis- -- that you were --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Very disillusioned.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Felt completely let down.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  [Inaudible.]\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Because the Assembly -- the Assembly represented itself.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Has representatives. As one of its admirable purposes --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  -- because after all, what is the purpose? That's a whole other story. We're not discussing it here. The purpose was to provide placement and XYZ.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Right.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=11944.0,11968.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/383","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"NEIL LEVIN:  Okay. Another purpose was to provide adjudication --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Right.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  -- of disputes.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Right.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  And you're telling me they refused to reply -- to -- to -- they declined --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  To involve themselves.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  -- to --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Yes.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  -- help.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Yes.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  And not to adjudicate so equally either. They're supposed to represent you.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Just to come and -- and -- and say --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  To be an advocate.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  -- we know -- yes. Just a simple advocate to say I -- we know him, he’s a respected man, which I am. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  But they do it for some, and they don't do it for others. This is the --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Yes.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Is that so?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Yes. Yes.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=11968.0,11993.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/384","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"NEIL LEVIN:  All right. And they came -- and -- and you asked --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  And --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  -- Rosenbaum --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Rosenbaum.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  -- did you ask him to step in --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  No. No. Rosenbaum sent a --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  -- come to this and --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  -- beautiful letter later.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Rosenbaum sent a letter.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Very, very --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Well, because for some -- because look there -- there have been many cases like this where the Assembly will come to the aid of a particular person and -- and come -- and when I say the Assembly, doesn't mean who's president for two years either. It means the inner circle, the ongoing inner circle.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Yeah.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=11993.0,12017.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/385","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"NEIL LEVIN:  And that's from you know who. Now, their inner circle will come to someone's -- and put up a -- they've put up $100,000 in legal fees for -- for -- in some cases --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Right. Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  -- for somebody. They've raised money. And they'll come in and they act as an advocate. They go -- they -- they go to the president of the congregation. They say we'll never send you another cantor if you don't resolve --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Exactly.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  -- this to the satisfaction -- all right.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  That is my words.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  And in other cases --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  That is my words.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  In other cases, not only you, they say, I'm sorry; we can't help you.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  I have to tell you --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  And -- and you --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  -- as president of the Northern California Board of Cantors, I took up officially with the Northern California Board of Cantors and I sent a caustic letter to the -- to his congregation.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Beautiful letter.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=12017.0,12055.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/386","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JULIUS BLACKMAN:  -- castigating them for not adhering to Jewish ethical principles and for, you know, blah, blah, blah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  But it didn't make any difference either.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  [Inaudible.]\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  No.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  They sent [inaudible], but it wasn't my letter that did it. They [inaudible] to court.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  What about -- what about beyond the -- the Assembly altogether? I mean, look, there are those who like yourself, you don't need the Assembly. Except the one time you needed them was then.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  [Yiddish.]\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Yeah. But what -- let's talk about your -- both of you.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  You -- you came into contact with a lot of great people. Now, you've mentioned a lot of -- most composers that you've got --","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=12055.0,12088.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/387","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JULIUS BLACKMAN:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Helfman --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Yeah. Helfman.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  -- Tedesco. Toch.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Paul Discount.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  People that you -- Discount and -- and even bigger people, more --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  -- famous people, so forth. What about you? In terms of hazzanim, let's talk about hazzanim or Jewish music. We've talked. We've talked about Ben Pollack. We've talked about people. But let's look at some of the star --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Hazzanim?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  -- hazzanim that were your colleagues.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=12088.0,12108.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/388","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"NATHAN KATZMAN:  Yes.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Or [inaudible] back.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Right here when I first came, there was an outstanding hazzanim. Tolmach and Breed Street.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Who?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Tolmach.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Tolmach.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  His name was Tolmach. T-o-l-m-a-c-h.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  And there -- and there was the --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Nice guy.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  -- a guy with a tremendous -- what is his name?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Swerdlow.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  A -- a voice.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Swerdlow?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=12108.0,12127.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/389","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"NATHAN KATZMAN:  Tremendous. And they -- they were hazzan also.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN: Remember the one guy?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN: And I auditioned for -- when I came here in '45 auditioned for the Breed Street Shul. And the -- so they asked me, you know, we'll have three people audition. One will be Friday, one will be Saturday. I said, I don't do it. And I needed a job very bad. So they said, in Jewish, look at him. Yossele Rosenblatt, [inaudible], Ben Hirschman [ph].  They didn't say that they were stars and they were getting paid. I wasn't getting -- I was just auditioning.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Yeah.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=12127.0,12159.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/390","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:\u003c/strong\u003e But they gave it [inaudible] to do the audition. Now, in -- in ours, if -- anecdotes, if you want to. There were a lot of stars. A lot of stars and producers and directors, but many and I could mention them, you would know them. But one thing stands out, Edward G. Robinson, I don't know if you know, Samuel Goldberg, and he -- he was after 13, he was a Yeshiva boy. So -- and he used to come and observe both the yahrzeit of his father and mother. And -- in the chapel. And --","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=12159.0,12187.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/391","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"NEIL LEVIN:  Where? At Breed Street?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  No. Already here. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Here. Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Here.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  I think he was a member of the his shul.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  And he was with a friend. So one time he comes in with -- too late. He went too late. You know, and he was in a white suit, was a Jew. And we've just finished a service in summer. So -- so he says -- stands at the door, he says, where you going? Where you all going? So the -- the Shabbos goy a German man with an accent. [using accent] Oh. We -- we -- no. We finish. We do it. They say, no. You didn't. He said, what am I going to tell my daddy? He says -- they said -- they said, nobody goes out. Anybody that dares to go, [makes fake machine gun gesture and noise]. He says, okay. That was it.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Robinson.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Interesting.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=12187.0,12224.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/392","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JULIUS BLACKMAN:  I tell you a story that's interesting only because it illustrates --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  -- an approach. This has to do with Pinchik and it's supposed to be a story that there was a discussion with Pinchik and Kapov-Kagan, I guess.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Oh. Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Kapov-Kagan had a high C or a high D.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Yeah. Yes. The D. I sang --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  [Inaudible] Kapov-Kagan was talking -- bragging a little bit. He says, you know, with my high C, with my [inaudible]—\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Yeah.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=12224.0,12246.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/393","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JULIUS BLACKMAN:  -- I [Yiddish] and Pinchik -- and Pinchik says [Yiddish.] \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  And it was true. And it was true.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  And it was true. He was a -- a cantor's cantor.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  He knew --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  -- how to modulate.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  You sang with Kapov-Kagan .\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  I sang with Kapov-Kagan.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  I sang with Pinchik as a kid.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  I sang some of his --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  You sang in the choir.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  In the choir with Pinchik.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  In Chicago with Pinchik.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  In Chicago. He came, he'd give a concert and we'd have a --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  And who conducted?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=12246.0,12269.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/394","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JULIUS BLACKMAN:  I think it was -- I think --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Verblin [ph?] Was it Verblin?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  I think it was Ben Pollock, frankly.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  For Pinchik?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  I think so.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  You ever -- you ever meet Jack Verblin?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  I thought he conducted for Pinchik. Sometimes.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  No. Ben Pollock.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Ben Pollck at this one.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Pollock may have conducted?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Vigoda. Pinchik and others that we sang, you know? And there was a special group --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  When you sang with someone like Pinchik --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Hershman [ph.]\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Hershman.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Yeah. Hershman was great.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  You -- you sang with all these people.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Yeah. Because they followed my father. My father, he gave up the position.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=12269.0,12298.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/395","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"NEIL LEVIN:  When you sang with somebody like Pinchik, in particular.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Yes.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  And here you are in the choir -- a choir boy. What -- in Chicago, what kind of repertoire -- do you remember what you sang? I mean, did -- Pinchik didn't do Sultzer or Lewandowski; did he?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  No.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  No.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  -- lot of improvisation.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Hasidic\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  And he had --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  So -- but what did the choir do?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  The choir sang and somebody --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  [inaudible] a response or something.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  No. No. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  But you did some compositions, no?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  I mean, he did some compositions. Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  [Inaudible] would do a solo, [inaudible] would do a solo. Like, with Gold. Gold didn't read one note from the other. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Yeah. But with -- with somebody -- here. With Pinchik, for example --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  I remember -- one of the things we did with Pinchik, I remember, was there -- there was a Lechu Neranena. I don't know whose it was.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Uh-huh.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  It's a long Lechu Neranena for Selichos.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  And you remember that from --","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=12298.0,12360.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/396","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JULIUS BLACKMAN:  I remember that.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  -- from a child.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  I sang it.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Well, you wouldn't know whose it was.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  I wouldn't know.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Wouldn't know where to find it.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Well, I have the music someplace.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  You do have the music?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  I do have the music.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Would it say maybe on top whose it was?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Probably would.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Would -- would you look through --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  I think it might be.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Would you look through --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  I'll take a look.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  It's interesting. You know, it's funny. Now, that's not one that I've heard but -- on one hand. On the other hand, they're all the same.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=12360.0,12377.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/397","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JULIUS BLACKMAN:  Yeah. They all have the same --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  They're different notes and different pitches --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  But they have the same flavor.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  -- but it's the same basic thing.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  And it's always a tenor solo. So --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Or a baritone solo.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  If it's one melody, it's --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  And then an alto solo.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  But -- no. See, this would be interesting. What kind of choral repertoire did -- did someone like Pinchik do?  \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  I don't know.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  What compositions?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Yeah. Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Had to do some compositions, no?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=12377.0,12395.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/398","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JULIUS BLACKMAN:  Oh. This was one of them I know because there's a number of solos that tenor did, but sometimes Pinchik would do a composition, for example. He would do a composition that the other guy -- somebody had written down a composition. There was a tenor solo, baritone solo. And then they would -- they would break and he would come back and -- and -- and they improvise [inaudible] on the theme. And -- and on his own.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Oh. Like, in the middle --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  In the middle.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=12395.0,12417.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/399","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"NEIL LEVIN:  Like a -- like a break in the middle.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  And he would modulate and he would change keys and come back. And he could do it. The guy was a masterful musician.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  He was, Pinchik.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Oh. Masterful, I tell you.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Kavel-Kagan. I did some cantor solos on my word.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Yeah?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  He said he had the voice. And David Gold and it'd sound -- and with Vigoda, he was -- he did -- he was [inaudible]. Anyhow, he -- and one time, I'll never forget. We had this big choir with -- with -- with Rosemarie.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Uh-huh.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  And this was the choir that when somebody came --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  And who was it? Rosemarie?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=12417.0,12455.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/400","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"NATHAN KATZMAN:  Yes. With the -- Rosemarie and the conductor, the choir in Montreal.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Oh. Oh. Yes. Yes.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  They had professor.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Yeah. Yeah. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Yeah. Professor. So he -- he came and -- and Gold. And he said, you know what? Don't -- don't -- don't. You can rehearse it.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Yeah.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Finally, when came out the pulpit. So all [inaudible] all I want from you is [singing]. So everybody start laughing, you know? So -- so with him. Now -- but Vigoda came and I don't know what kind of music, but anyway. But there were -- I'm not exaggerating -- maybe 15, maybe 20 people. It was a snowy and a frosty, whatnot 20,30","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=12455.0,12497.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/401","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"And so we said, what? Obviously, you're not going to use us. So we're going to go sit. Oh. No. And he went through a repertoire. You won't believe it. For an hour and a half of repertoire, songs. Then he gets up and he sings \"Vesti La Giubba\"--","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=12497.0,12512.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/402","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"NEIL LEVIN:  Yeah. Where? Where? Where was this?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Montreal.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Montreal.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  And here, you know?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Uh-huh.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  And the --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Tell you I heard --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  But -- yeah. Go ahead.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  I heard Moshe Koussevitzky one time in concert at the Wilshire Ebell. So the first half of the concert, he did some Mozart. He did some La Boheme. You know, he did the arias, you know? And everybody, you know, applauded politely. You know, nice tenors. Then after the intermission, he comes out and he started in with -- with Yehi Ratzon from the Rosh Hodesh benchen. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eThen he came out with a Yibanei ha Mikdash. And I tell you he brought the house down. That other stuff, they were listening because they were nice, polite people. And you can hear any tenor do Vesti La Giubba.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN: Yeah.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=12512.0,12553.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/403","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JULIUS BLACKMAN:  But to hear the kind of thing he did after the intermission, magnificent. It was really -- to hear --\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  I happen to be in New York at that time when Moshe Koussevitzky came for the first time. Got off the boat, etc. And he went to the -- there were about three, 400 people -- cantors. Everybody knew -- that you can name. [Inaudible]. Roitman and Hershman [ph]. And oh -- and Pinchik was sitting there because they wanted to hear. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eAnd the -- he came in. And they asked and they asked and he spoke German. Like, I said, no. Give me [inaudible] -- F-sharp. [inaudible]. And he -- and Kapov-Kagan was there. And he got up and he did a [Yiddish]. It was the first time that we heard. Nobody moved. Nobody moved. And they were all with their heads down. So there is a story I know if you know about the true story, that when [SOUNDS LIKE Yossi Berlin] came and auditioned for the Metropolitan Opera, so at the audition, they were tenors better, etc.. So all of a sudden when he showed and he was outstanding. So, you know the story. So so a couple of the terrace got up and walked out.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=12553.0,12618.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/404","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eNEIL LEVIN:\u003c/strong\u003e Yeah. That's a story. This story is told about everybody. Yeah, I heard a violinist. The story is when Heifetz played, when Heifetz made his American debut. Right. And Misha Ellman was in the audience with, um, with, uh, Joseph Hoffman or one of the great pianists, I forget who. And he said, oh, it's hot in here, and Hoffman said 'not for pianists'. \u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003e","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=12618.0,12645.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/405","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JULIUS BLACKMAN:  One thing I have to comment about\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Szigeti, Szigeti.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Yes. Joseph Szigeti. I think you're in. He was a great musician. I had to, the one comment, one of the comments that I make, I heard one of my, I have had a number of students, you know, even here. Maury Glick is a former student of mine. And Leon Bennett, olav hashalom, is a former student of mine. Don Decker in New York was a student of mine - New Jersey. I have four or five students, but I heard Maurie Glick once. He was a nice guy, he was a musical guy. I don't know if you know, Maury. Plays the violin very well. He was a student of mine when he was in college at UCLA. He was studying violin. And his he was his father had died and he wanted to do something and his parents wanted him to study a little bit. So he studied with me and he became a cantor. And he just got honored after 30 years on his pulpit. You get to feel old when one of your students is honored at 30 years on the pulpit. So I came to hear him sing and his con..it was at the cantors concert as a matter of fact in Palm Springs he sang.  And I listened to him and then I took him aside. I said, Maurie, you know something? You're trying to imitate the coloratura of Rosenblatt or whoever.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=12645.0,12717.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/406","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"I said, we're living (I guess this was 1992, or three, I forget). I said we're living in a different age, you don't have to imitate. You don't have that particular quality. And there isn't any necessity for you to have that particular quality. We're not in the age where you have to do all these jumping around, you know, to do the appoggiaturas and all the coloraturas that some of these fellows do. Transmit the music the way you understand the music. Make sure that they hear the words. Which reminds me, I had an argument with Mizrahi, not an argument, but Mizrahi spoke at one of the conferences in California, in Palm Springs. He was a cantor in residence for the weekend. And he led a discussion about interpreting prayers or something, coloratura and so forth, and had a couple of the guys do, I think Propis, David Propis did something and one of the women did something.  And he was analyzing them, you know, do three, you know, run of three against two and so forth and so on. And I'm listening. They never got past the sixth word in that prayer. And after about an hour of this, you know, I said, you know, I I'm interested to know when are you going to talk about interpreting the prayers to give meaning to the words. And all I hear you talking about is the vocal agility. To get like this other thing. What I'm getting at is I don't see any need anymore for doing the kind of jumping around in the acrobatics vocally. And I can see where it can give certain meaning. And it's certain what they call the hazzanic art that some of the people call. But I see no reason for that in this day and age where they did it, maybe in Europe where you couldn't have any women singers in your quartet, where you were required to use only men, and where you had to do falsettos because you didn't have women.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=12717.0,12821.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/407","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JULIUS BLACKMAN:  You want to give a change to the quality and the timbre of what they were hearing. I can understand that. But what do you have to do that now to convey the words, the meaning of the words in the nusaḥ with this emphasis on the important things I was feeling, emet mit feeling. And that's what you need to do. And that's my feeling to this day. I don't believe in all of that vocal coloratura.  I don't think there's a necessity for the amount of coloratura. I can see that some coloratura can be.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  The only necessity is if someone finds it beautiful. But you wouldn't agree with that, I know you're not going to agree with that.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=12821.0,12853.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/408","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"NATHAN KATZMAN:  And of course not, I want to tell you, may you live and be well. I'm thinking, you know, how many times I have some, I'll send you some of my own compositions. A sephira with choir and gansa other things. Beautiful, a modim anachnu, beautiful. I write well. I tell you what I mean. Why I write well. Because it's according to the text and also is a (Hebrew or Yiddish expression) it has to be...\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN: In vein.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN: How do you feel about repeating words?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN: For me, it's not necessary, but if it is only about it and handle it. And then the (Hebrew) said 'halleluyah, halleluyah', or whatever it is, depends if it's done.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN: If it makes musical sense for you.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN: That's right.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN: And what about the retort, uh, that it's it's there's no comparative there's no analogy there because that is secular music and this is a tefillah where where how can you repeat a word in a tefillah because, uh. Well, I'll give it away if I say the vatollah, but, uh. So how would you answer that? I, would you answer those who say you cannot repeat even one word.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003e","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=12853.0,12923.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/409","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"NEIL LEVIN:  You can daven with coloratura, but you.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  You can repeat. You repeat only to give meaning special meaning.  A rabbi, for example, or a speaker, any speaker when he's talking would say, \"I want you to know. I want you to know\".\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Then the retort, then the retort is yes, but that's his, he wrote, that's his words. He can say what he wants. But you're saying modim anakhnu lakh. You're saying u'va shofar gadol. That's not your words to repeat. If the author of the tefillah wanted to repeat it, he would have, if he wanted to say, Adonai, Adonai, he would have said Adonai, Adonai . How do you answer that?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=12923.0,12953.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/410","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JULIUS BLACKMAN:  Well, you're interpreting whatever somebody said. You interpret your understanding and the way you want to convey it to an audience's hearing it, whether they're hearing it for the first time or the 500th, in fact if you repeat it in a certain spot, but you don't make a career out of repetition is what I'm saying.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  The fact is that who decided that, the modern rabbi decided that if you remember, if you're too young for it, but originally I'm going back maybe to the 18th century. Whatever they did, they did whatever they did. And it was fine. And nobody criticized and they were talmid chachamim did not criticize that, except not to repeat hashem.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=12953.0,12991.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/411","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"NEIL LEVIN:  Well, there's hashem and there's another question of whether at least if you don't repeat well, of course, that the question you don't repeat the bracha, then you can do whatever you want. I'll tell you something. I don't know if he ever delved into this. I just leave this for you to think about the question that has arisen now, the business about whether a non-Jew can sing in the choir halachically. And there is a question if if if they don't sing the bracha, then what?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  I got an answer. I got an answer. Give me a question and I'll give you an answer. And, they'll have to excuse me, because this question came up where the rabbi who knew me and lied...I shouldn't say anything on the video...","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=12991.0,13025.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/412","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:\u003c/strong\u003e ...in court, in court, now anyway, so he accused me. He said, you know, they had problems with him, you know, that he would use a non Jewish singers. So first of all, I don't know whether you're familiar with that, you're familiar. I did, because they were good and I didn't have any. If I had whoever came to me, could he be black or whatever. But if they were good voice and we were very particular, I mean, they were tops. And we did a tremendous repertory that had good people. So I couldn't just go and say, I want the Jewish people there. So I said, furthermore, I said, I nowhere that the rabbi show me, did anybody tell me that it is exclusive only for Jews and there's nowhere. No, I quoted, I quoted the Talmud, I quoted the other things, I say (Hebrew) and other things, you know that and the music and that all people at say, Rosh Hashanah, it said all people, they didn't say just Jews and non-Jew will not permit to sing. Also, I based it on that. And I told him so. He but but my point is this. I didn't feel it. First of all, I was the shaliach tzibor. You see, that's number one. Secondly, I said I wanted to that somebody show me where it is either in the Talmud or there where it says that non Jews cannot participate in and and praise God. Praise God. Because we're all children of one God and that my...I want to tell you something, it has nothing to do with music or anything like that, when I came to my senses, I said I said that I don't care about what you pray 10 times a day.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=13025.0,13130.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/413","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:\u003c/strong\u003e I don't care what it is. But above all, to me, the golden rule, to me, the golden rule, that to be a good human being, don't hurt anybody else. And I'd have to tell you that what happens, they didn't say between you and God, if you sin and condemned what you say, what you say, if you sinned against your fellow man, I said I buy that. [CROSS TALK] Very quickly I tell you, I was in [SOUNDS LIKE Burbank) with the rabbi, the hazzan, together they came. [INAUDIBLE] you know, and ask me to talk and ask him, what should I talk about today in the college group? I'm trying to be fair to the college, he says. He says, you know, he says, why Jews gesticuate, he says, why you know something their face (?). So that bothered me that you couldn't find anything else to speak on, and for a college group. So I'm standing there and I see that the fellow Dr. Harrick was to introduce me. So I want to ask, as you see, Dr. Harrick, he's not Jewish. He hasn't got a long nose, I said, and it didn't utter one iota without having gesticulated. Is that typical Jewish? You take an Italian. You take a Frenchman, I says and bind them, tie him up and you won't be able to utter one word. I says, now you ask me why we don't accept Christ. I said it's a good question. I said I for the I and Dr. Herrick, Hedgeped, have an appointment downtown.  At that time, it was the Biltmore Ball was a famous place. I said, does it matter or is it incumbent upon me to go by way of Wilshire? Because this or this, I want to come there. I think to me the most important thing is that we meet at a designated place and the designated time.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=13130.0,13230.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/414","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"NATHAN KATZMAN:  I said, So you went to to Christ? He went to Muhammed and I went to Moses. There is the important thing I say I want to say to you and I say to them says, please, and I'll tell you very truthfully, I said, if God, and I don't believe in the chosen people either, never believed it, so I says that if God really had a chosen people, a choosing chosen people, but not, I said, why are there so many Catholics, why are there are so many Mohammedans and why are the Jews a handful. And so it tells me, in other words, that there are no favorites. I, of course,...\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  This is very good, very good analogy.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  I say,'Amen!'.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=13230.0,13265.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/415","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"NEIL LEVIN:  Amen! I see here we have a congressional record, their own tribute. Maybe that's a good way to conclude here. A tribute to a cantor, Nathan Katzman and Grace Katzman,...\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Do you see what it says there? [CROSS TALK]. Just just briefly, how did this come about?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Come about. I was twenty five or 35 years and attended the dinner. And by the way, everything was always to raise money. They used us. So what happened was they must have contacted him.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=13265.0,13297.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/416","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"NEIL LEVIN:  Who? Who?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Levine. He was a congressman. Congressman Levine. And, he was a student of mine and so and he got up in Congress, you know, and the result was that he stays there. I was so strong in that I outlasted thirty rabbis. You see, it's the truth. They came and went, he says, but he's like the Rock of Gibraltar. Yeah, that's why I have it.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  Right. We're going to I think conclude unless there's something I'd to give it a couple minutes or two if there's something that you want to. But I think I think I don't have any more questions for today.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=13297.0,13335.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/417","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:\u003c/strong\u003e I would like to say something if assent. If you really care because I don't personally accept, it that's a selfish thing. But I've gone through with it. I'm talking about Assembly. If you really care. About the Assembly and the cantorate, to elevate, which we tried very hard, as God is our witness, so then somehow, I don't know, you have to bring it to some of the guys, some of the people that it's high time. It's just the last the last outpost that they should see to it that there should come a cohesion that [Hebrew]. I'll be practical. If there are as a position, like now there is position . It's a good position. There were about ten people from outside the (?). I'm repeating myself now. Why should it be so? Why should [INAUDIBLE] go in and said, listen, listen to the people here. If you don't find, then go ahead.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=13335.0,13395.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/418","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"NEIL LEVIN:  I have an answer for you. And then if you agree, we could quit. You know, there's a Yiddish song, Az Meshiach vit Cumn [Yiddish], [CROSS TALK] Am I right?\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Then I must of necessity, I must say that this is the end of the cantorate for sure, because quite a number.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  Not necessarily, because we still say Moshiach will come. My feeling is this in terms of what the cantor is and this is something that I feel strongly, I feel we have to establish in our own minds who we are, what we are and where we're going. The cantorate arose out of a certain historical evolutionary process. They started out with being very little. They taught cantillation. Maybe they did a little [?]. Gradually over the centuries, they assumed different positions in different eras and different areas. They became this and this place and this and that place. But gradually there has, there has evolved a profession that has come to this point in time and in this manner has achieved this status or lack of status, if you will.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=13395.0,13463.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/419","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JULIUS BLACKMAN:  I think they have maintained the tradition. They have inherited the cantillations and the knowledge of cantillation, and they introduced it into their siddur, into the prayer book and into the makhzor and into the interpretation of the Torah and so on. I myself feel that the cantor really should be the repository of what the Jewish culture has to offer and extend themselves beyond that, him or herself, as the case may be.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Musically, you mean.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=13463.0,13489.0"},{"id":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841/transcript/24368/annotation/420","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"JULIUS BLACKMAN:  Musically, and in other ways. I, for example, have in one of my programs, a number of my programs. I had a music and arts festival that my congregation. Wasn't only the cantor and the junior choir and the junior orchestra, but we also had people who are interested in painting and people are interested in the arts and drama or whatever. And I feel that the cantor that time has come, the cantor should move into those areas that I related to this specific kind of artistic expression and expand his horizons and her horizons and the congregation's horizons and express themselves Jewishly with what the Jewish idiom has to offer in all of these fields and express beyond it. I feel that there's enough work for the cantor who's expanding in that direction. And if they move in that direction, it won't be in my time or somebody else, but it may go that way. If we move in that way, then the profession can move and expand and grow and become ever more important. This is my feeling and this is what I think the cantorate should do.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNEIL LEVIN:  I would say, 'Amen'. It's been great today.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  All right.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eJULIUS BLACKMAN:  I've enjoyed it.\u003cbr\u003e\u003cbr\u003eNATHAN KATZMAN:  Thank you.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://milken.aviaryplatform.com/collections/1159/collection_resources/39442/file/110841#t=13489.0,13564.3508"}]}]}]}